Saruman's death

[mormegil]

…about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a cold sigh dissolved into nothing […] long years of death were suddenly revealed in [the body], and it shrank, and the shriveled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull.

Read the above section from Return of the King and I want to know what other think happened to Saruman after his death, did he simply cease to exist or does his Fea continue to exist but forever changed? It's obvious he was not admitted into the west.

[Elmo]

Wasn't he not banished to the Void like his chums Sauron and Morgoth? I think that's the typical resting place for bad ainur when they die isn't it?

[Inziladun]

I've always thought there was a parallel between the descriptions of Sauron's permanent disembodiment and Saruman's death at the hands of Wormtongue. In both cases, the figure representing the 'divine' spirit is scattered by a wind and brought to 'nothing'. I think Saruman was reduced to an existence like Sauron's, though not for the same reason. A catastrophic loss of power caused Sauron to lose his hold on the physical world; I don't see the same causal effect on Saruman, so it's my thought he might have been 'sentenced' to a purgatory of sorts by a higher authority in punishment for such conscious abandonment of his duty and envy of Sauron as he was guilty of. Also, the seeming 'genetic experiments' he conducted with Men and Orcs are said more than once in the books to be utterly abhorrent, and I imagine Manwë (ir Eru) might have kept that in mind when considering his fate.

[Mithalwen]

But when the Istari were sent to Midle Earth weren't they confined by physical bodies which could be destroyed. Gandalf was sent back but in a form that could not be harmed - a paralel can be drawn between him and Glorfindel the White Rider of the first book and fellow Balrog victim. It seems that Saruman was refused permission to return to Valinor and resume his Maiar form - maybe he would be sent to the void or maybe he remaied an intangible but eternal malevolent presence in Arda marred. Like the unhoused fea of an elf that refused the call but nasty.

[Findegil]

The paralle to Saurons final deembodyment is stricing, but I think it is missleading.

The fea of Sauron we see grasping for the western parts of Middle-Earth, while Saruman is praying to the outermost west (Valinor), I would say.

The death of Gandalf at Celebdil is a better parallel. After his return Gandalf confirmes, that he was outside space and time. This can in the context of Middle-Earth only mean that he was with Eru. Thus his death was very similar to the death of mortal men, which is fitting since we are told that the Istari came to Middel-Earth in the form of mortal men.

If that is true for Gandalf, I don't see why it should be otherwise for Saruman. The difference is probably that Saruman was very reluctant and tried to aviod this fate by a prayer to Manwe to let him return to Valinor, while Gandalf seemed to except it.

By the way: Sauron was not pushed outside the world into the void. He was reduced to a spirt unable to effect the physical world but oblidge to stay in Eä until the end. There were only 6 cases in which Ainur were premitted to leave Eä before it final end and in all 6 cases Eru himself was involved: Morgoth after the defeat at the end of the First Age and the Istari.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The fea of Sauron we see grasping for the western parts of Middle-Earth, while Saruman is praying to the outermost west (Valinor), I would say.

The similarity I see is that both were given a judgement, it seems, by someone, in the form of the wind that takes them.

Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out toward them a vast threatening hand......a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

ROTK The Field of Cormallen

For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

ROTK The Scouring of the Shire

Originally Posted by Findegil

By the way: Sauron was not pushed outside the world into the void. He was reduced to a spirt unable to effect the physical world but oblidge to stay in Eä until the end. There were only 6 cases in which Ainur were premitted to leave Eä before it final end and in all 6 cases Eru himself was involved: Morgoth after the defeat at the end of the First Age and the Istari.

I thought of that point about Sauron remaining in ME indefinitley as well. I do recall a quote that would lead one to believe he eventually went to the Void, however.

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was [that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron....in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

Silm Valaquenta

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

With what has been already said, I would consider the last remark Inziladun made for Sauron's fate as significant, however it's likely "metaphorical" here, Sauron would not have, I think, gone into the Void immediately after his final demise. I believe he remained around, but in such a poor state that it was even weaker than before when he lost his body after the Last Alliance, and now he definitely lost any chance of ever regaining his power, with the Ring being lost.

As for Saruman though, this always made me wonder too. In some ways, I like Findegil's interpretation. However, it still remains a question. The only thing we know for certain is that Saruman was rejected by the Valar - for either good or bad, that is, he would not return there among the Maiar in Valinor, but not even would he face a judgement from the Valar there (like Morgoth did). "In good and bad he belonged to Middle-Earth" now? Being rejected from the West, even from being judged in front of the Valar, is of course a judgement itself - and a pretty considerate one. The wind which dissolved his spirit made it clear. "Silence means judgement," as one Rabbinic saying goes, and I believe this would be exactly the case.

What exactly I have in mind: I think the Valar just decided not to do anything when Saruman's physical body was destroyed. What does it mean? Let us imagine the process of sending the Istari as some kind of a "contract". Basically, it was a job, so we can imagine it like a job contract. The Valar say: "You are going to Middle-Earth, for that, you will have physical bodies which can be harmed etc., and once you are done with your tasks, you can return here and you'll be again transformed into your immortal existence." That's all right, but of course accidents could happen, in such a case, I believe - and as we saw with Gandalf, in a way - the spirits of dead Istari would return to Valinor and would be given back their previous form of existence - only they would not be able to accomplish their task anymore. With Gandalf, he gained a special permission, when such a thing happened, the Valar's superior himself allowed him to go back with a new body. With Saruman, I believe the case was just different, where Valar actually denied to dead Saruman even to return back to Valinor - they cancelled their part of the contract. Even though the "contract" would have originally made it possible for the Istari to die during their stay in M-E, but they would be then still received back, in Saruman's case, not even this was made possible.

What lead me to think like this is the fact that Saruman's spirit was at first looking expectantly to the West - I don't know how it seems to you, but to me this looks like a kind of turn of events, because this would be probably for the first time in many years when Saruman had ever looked into the West (with the intention to expect some help from there). But: "We cancel our contract, we don't know you anymore", that was basically the meaning of the wind from the West, if it were set into words (and one could well imagine that Valar could support this decision by saying also "...because you obviously canceled the contract from your part already some time ago.")

And so, Saruman basically died like any other creature bound to Middle-Earth, with the single difference that now his spirit did not have a home to go to. Elves go to Mandos, Men go beyond the circles of the world, but Saruman - like Sauron - was rejected his home, the place where his spirit should belong to after his death, and now he was, indeed, I believe doomed to remain in Middle-Earth as a formless and powerless spirit. And in fact, to react to first post of Inziladun's, I believe his case actually was the same as Sauron's, only for different reasons. One was bound to M-E because of the Ring, and it was destroyed; the other was bound to M-E by physical body of a man-wizard, as a part of a contract, but he was rejected the possibility to return to his spiritual existence in Valinor, and so again, when the body was destroyed, nothing remained except for a formless and totally powerless spirit.

So they both were sentenced to roam the Middle-Earth in the long ages... and perhaps still wait for their final judgement. I think this could have given them both a long time to think, and it would be interesting to speculate if their ways would differ in any way here - for I believe it was said that Sauron would join Morgoth in Dagor Dagorath, whereas we probably don't know anything about Saruman, unless I am mistaken? - Anyway, they would probably both expect the final judgement yet to come, though I wonder if in the end this bodiless stay in Middle-Earth wouldn't be considered as a sufficient "purgatory" - and probably only after that, we shall see (cf. the Dagor Dagorath question above).

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Findegil

After his return Gandalf confirmes, that he was outside space and time. This can in the context of Middle-Earth only mean that he was with Eru.

What he actually says is

Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

The wording is somewhat ambiguous - out of thought and time could (I'm not saying does) mean something as simple as being unconscious and unaware of time passing, and roads that I will not tell could also refer to the West - he wouldn't say explicitly he'd been with the Valar as that would reveal his Maiarin nature.
Nevertheless, your argument that, being incarnated in a mortal body, he died and went to Eru like a mortal is convincing for me, and the Prof himself confirms it in Letter 156:

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed[...] He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up the plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.

No need to assume Saruman's death was different, although Authority's verdict on him certainly was.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The similarity I see is that both were given a judgement, it seems, by someone, in the form of the wind that takes them.

I think the wind obviously points to Manwe. If we accept that Saruman died a mortal's death, Manwe probably didn't pass judgement on Saruman himself, but we could say he refused Saruman's appeal and referred him to Eru's Supreme Court.

(x-ed with Legate, who makes some valid points which I still have to digest.)

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...So they both were sentenced to roam the Middle-Earth in the long ages...

This pretty much sums up how I have always interpreted the fate of both Saruman and Sauron. I have also assumed that neither would be able to affect their environment in anyway but I wonder if it would be possible for them to inhabit another body or dominate other spirits such as the nazgul, wights or houseless elves. I also wonder what would happen if they ever ran into one another.

Yes, I have too much time on my hands at the moment.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

This pretty much sums up how I have always interpreted the fate of both Saruman and Sauron. I have also assumed that neither would be able to affect their environment in anyway but I wonder if it would be possible for them to inhabit another body or dominate other spirits such as the nazgul, wights or houseless elves. I also wonder what would happen if they ever ran into one another.

Yes, I have too much time on my hands at the moment.

It's probably a matter of personal belief, but I actually believe (from what's been said in the books and also what I "feel right") that indeed as you say in the beginning, that they would not be able to affect their environment in any way at all. I think they could be "visible" to some over-sensitive people, let's say, if somebody was constantly troubled by nightmares, he could from time to time catch a glimpse of "real" Sauron who managed to get stuck around his house for some longer time, but that's about it. I don't believe that they would be capable even of any form of possession. Somebody could see a weak "echo" of them in their dreams or something, if they tried really hard to catch his attention and if the person was sensitive enough, but still it would be just weak and shaded pale vision, nothing more. Something like the way Legolas perceived the Dead Men of Dunharrow, "weak and fragile", merely "shadows of Men", with the difference that Saruman and Sauron would be even far less than the Dead Men of Dunharrow ever were. Wisp and smoke, nothing more.

And as for what would have happened if they ran into one another, I guess Saruman at least would not have any wish for that encounter, in the "best" case, they could "gnaw each other with words", but I believe neither would be able to do anything to the other anyway (they are really just wisp and smoke), and anyway I doubt either would relish in such an encounter, for fear of being mocked by the other now in their utterly powerless state, and the same thing would probably happen if they encountered a lost fea of a dead Elf or something. I think seeing a totally powerless Dark Lord would be quite satisfactory for his former victims. I immediately thought of the words chanted by the dead in Isaiah 14: "...Underworld is moved to meet thee at thy coming: it stirred up the dead for thee... All they shall speak and say unto thee: Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like us? ...And they shall look upon thee and wonder: Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms...?"

[Inziladun]

I'd agree that Sauron and Saruman would likely have no power any longer to affect the physical world, though I do like Legate's idea of a select few 'sensitives' being able to see them from time to time.
If they happened to encounter one another in spirit form, I wonder how they would converse, with no physical bodies. Some sort of thought transference? Even if they had originally possessed that power as Maia, it doesn't seem they would still have had it in their lowly state.

[Pitchwife]

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?.

I think the reason the Istari 'wore' physical bodies was so they would be able to actually experience life in Middle-earth from the true perspective of the Children that abode there. Presumably that would give them greater insight on the manner of which to approach the fight against Sauron. That fact alone wouldn't affect their life potential as angelic spirits, though. Gandalf and Saruman experienced only physical 'deaths'; Gandalf's spirit being allowed to return to complete his task, and Saruman's ultimately rejected. The quote you provided from UT about Saruman is significant, and that does support the idea that he was effectively banished from ME. I wouldn't think his sins grave enough to warrant sending him to the Void, though. Sauron himself could have gotten a second chance after the fall of Morgoth, if he'd really wanted one.
Sauron's loss of body at the hands of the Last Alliance (and after the Ring was destroyed) was due to a sudden loss of power, quite different from the Istari who 'died'.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

The Valar themselves were only 'managers', so to speak. Though the idea to send the Istari and physically embody them had been theirs, it was apparently beyond their authority to approve, needing the 'Head' to do so. If the initial idea had to be given the go-ahead by Eru, I would think any changes to the plan would have to be approved by him as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

Ha, well done indeed with the research on the last quote. I guess that changes the matters a lot. In any case, my former speculation was indeed just a speculation, or a theory. The thing with Istari bodies is probably a more complicated one. I agree with Inziladun about the need of approval from Eru, since the Valar needed his approval for the Istari project (or at least "perhaps", as it is said in one of the drafts), that's the basis for all the thoughts of Gandalf's return being approved by Eru himself and not just by Valar. Okay, so the question would be: what would happen to a perfectly faithful and hard-labouring Gandalf who would happen to die along the way, if there was no intervention from Eru? I believe the gaze of Saruman's spirit into the West is the answer: it really does not seem that a dead Wizard would expect to go beyond the Circles of the World (but perhaps he just was not prepared for the alternative?), but that even a formless Maia, however diminished in power in Middle-Earth, would be once again accepted back in Valinor. Also, think of one more thing. The destruction of a Wizard's physical body does not put him into the same basket with Men, in the sense that they would go to where the Men do. This has several reasons. Firstly, Death for Men is a gift from Eru, and it would seem to me against all logic to actually give the Wizards a gift intended for totally different type of creatures and reserved for them alone. And secondly, whoever said that an incarnate Wizard would be any closer to Men than to Elves. The Wizards' forms were those of the Children of Ilúvatar, and that is, both Men and Elves. The fact that they had beards is merely a cosmetic thing (not to speak of that Círdan had a beard as well), and let us not forget that Men themselves considered the Wizards being Elvish (although for various reasons based on rather simple and surface perceptions). It is indeed told that they were walking among both Men and Elves who perceived them as ones "of them". In any case, in the matters of death the Maiar were still far closer to Elves than to Men (heading to the West, Mandos, etc., basically inside Arda, not somewhere out of it, like Men did), and it would be really really strange to have such a big change in the paradigm of the world by the Istari's incarnation. The Istari were still mere messengers, not really a big deal in the large scale, whereas the matter of Death of Men seems from all that is said in the books as one of the last things that could ever be tampered with (we had Beren, Lúthien and a few others whose fate was actually changed in some way).

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

Well, acccording to the UT he also desecrated/destroyed Isildur's reamains, I dont know how bad an act that is reckoned in ME, but it proably doesnt count well for one.

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet. Oh and I realize I mad one addional mistake if their fea had returned to Valinor they would have been serving Orome, not Yavanna (I got their summoner and Radagast's confused) But I also like imagining that they were still around somewhere maybe in the far south of Far Harad (far enough to actually be beyond Saurons control) or way up North among the Lossoth or both (hey with two of them there no guarantee they stayed together)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet.

Nay, what I had in mind was what seemed to be Tolkien's most immediate fear, something he seemed to consider most likely of all possibilities, and that was not just being slain, nor by Saruman (that was really just a distinct possibility that was only hinted), but that they turned to evil themselves. THAT was why I said they would be locked up.

Originally Posted by UT, Istari, note #3

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two," since they were not concerned in the history oh the North-west of Middle-earth. "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

[miriena]

Well, my personal opinion is also that indeed, the Western wind was Manwe forbidding Saruman's return. But perhaps he not only denied him the return, maybe he banished Saruman from the West of Middle Earth as well. It was now free of Darkness (on a large scale anyway, for the time being) and Saruman's spirit had no business left there. It would be a sad fate--but perhaps proper punishment--for a once-powerful being to exist somewhere as a shadow of its former self, passing endless days. Who knows, maybe no "high orders" ever came regarding what to do with Saruman, he was now a useless, deprecated tool and the only thing that was clear is that the way West was closed for him. But I don't think that those up high in the food chain considered him anywhere near the same level of vileness as, for example, Sauron. Breeding his warriors may have been the only "major" offense of his, but even so. He wasn't the first one to do something similar, on him lies the fault of a follower, not the inventor. My general impression of Saruman is that he was cast aside more as a dangerous (very dangerous...) nuisance rather than evil itself. In my opinion having him meekly exist somewhere nowhere in Middle Earth only retaining memories (if that) of his former self and power seems appropriate.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by miriena

My general impression of Saruman is that he was cast aside more as a dangerous (very dangerous...) nuisance rather than evil itself. In my opinion having him meekly exist somewhere nowhere in Middle Earth only retaining memories (if that) of his former self and power seems appropriate.

Perhaps, vile as his deeds in interspecies genetics were, he could still have found forgiveness were it not for his unrepentant attitude. But any chance to redeem himself he had rejected time after time. I think Gandalf pretty well said as much.

'But alas for Saruman! I fear nothing more can be made of him. He has withered altogether'.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Perhaps, vile as his deeds in interspecies genetics were, he could still have found forgiveness were it not for his unrepentant attitude. But any chance to redeem himself he had rejected time after time. I think Gandalf pretty well said as much.

Exactly. In my opinion Saruman was not beyond redemption at all, and my personal belief is that in fact, the only thing which was responsible for his fate was that he continuously kept rejecting the redemption that was being offered to him over and over again. Actually I think he was being offered the chance more times than anybody else in M-E.

[miriena]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Exactly. In my opinion Saruman was not beyond redemption at all, and my personal belief is that in fact, the only thing which was responsible for his fate was that he continuously kept rejecting the redemption that was being offered to him over and over again. Actually I think he was being offered the chance more times than anybody else in M-E.

Yes, this is what makes me feel that chances are, he didn't end up alongside the darkest of the Dark. Maybe he was offered another chance to redeem himself, but not as what he used to be. Or maybe just sent off somewhere where he could do no more harm. Or just... shoo'd off like a piece of lint from an eyelash. Maybe someone is hoping his senses will return to him eventually, or that he still has the power to do something important even though his original task did work out well.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

It may also be worth it to bear in mind, when considering Curunir's's fate, that he also, like Gorthaur, poured out his spirit and power into the making of a ring and the dominion and control of lesser beings, along with the dark sorcery involved in genetic manipulation. The degree to which he himself had dissipated and distributed his native power is unknown, but what CAN be known by these tidbits of evidence is that whatever his fate, it appeared to be the same as that of Gorthaur because both became wisps of powerless shadows, bereft of form and substance, and not welcomed in any proper circles among decent folk.

[Morthoron]

Although the fates of Saruman and Sauron are not revealed, I believe a central assumption can be divined for both of them. Tolkien may have eschewed allegory, but his symbolism is quite apparent.

First, Saruman's demise:

…about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a cold sigh dissolved into nothing.

Now, Sauron's exit:

...there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was blown away...

The emphasized phrasing in both quotes are mine.

Although it is clearer in Saruman's case (particularly when Tolkien refers metaphorically to the grey mist appearing like a pale shrouded figure gazing almost imploringly to the West), it is plain that a great wind, like the pounding of a judge's gavel, passed final judgement on both of them and dispersed their spirits forever. Unlike Morgoth, whose spiritual and/or physical manifestation was imprisoned until the final battle at the end of all things, Sauron and Saruman would remain incorporeal and impotent, and would no longer plague Middle-earth.

That a "great wind" or "cold wind" should propitiously be summoned at such precise junctures (a 'cold' wind in Saruman's case, because he had betrayed his sacred trust) indicates, in my mind at least, the intervention of Eru, or perhaps Manwe, because "the winds and airs were his servants, and he was lord of air, wind, and clouds in Arda."

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

Floating atop the great waves of Belegaer, going from West Shore to East Shore... Should keep him pretty busy.

Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them.

Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? I don't recall reading any of this. Gandalf mentions a ring, but not one of power:

He [Saruman] wore a ring on his finger. ~FOTR The Council of Elrond

I always assumed that it was a symbol of authority, but didn't posses any "real power".

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Yeah. What he said. But that's also what I just said, the details being implied, and it re-enforces my personal perspective that they shared a similar fate. Good points up there, Morthoron.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Floating atop the great waves of Belegaer, going from West Shore to East Shore... Should keep him pretty busy.

Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them.

Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? I don't recall reading any of this. Gandalf mentions a ring, but not one of power:



I always assumed that it was a symbol of authority, but didn't posses any "real power".

Now I suppose I'll have to look it up. I'll get back with that. I remember it distinctly because I recall musing about what level of power and ability he achieved with his own trinket. And thank you, Galadriel55!

[Bauglir]

Saruman wearing a ring has always been an interesting one I think. After all, Gandalf mentions on numerous occasions that Saruman did many things in mockery and imitation of Sauron, and it is also implied that he was a great study of ring lore and all-devices-Sauron. Could it be possible that Saruman attempted a few proto-types of his own?

On the original topic of Saruman and Sauron's demise, it seems pretty similar. I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bauglir

I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet!

Ditto! And welcome to the Downs!

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

In regards to Curinir's ring, the only indisputable reference is made by his own mouth, and that it was seen upon his hand...

Gandalf says later in the chapter:
"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger."

Saruman says later in the chapter:
"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

My assumption that it is at least an "attempt" at a Ring of Power comes from his very own nature. And while it is largely circumstantial, it can reasonably predict a likely course that he took...

1. He was a Maia of Aule, that troublesome Vala whose own aggressive thirst for Lore Knowledge led him to create the Dwarves-

Just like Gorthaur in the beginning, Curunir was a Maia of great power and knowledge from the people of Aule, and was almost certainly privvy in Valinor to the knowledge of the Noldor, such as it was in it's infancy. So he had, at least, some background in great Lorecraft, and almost undoubtedly watched the work of Feanor with great interest. Their collective weakness against the lure of great artifacts of power and the will to create them no doubt sprang from this allegience which was crafted through a kinship of spirit.

2. He searched out the crafts and secrets of the enemy in order to, at first, defeat him-

He was found to have possessed some of the great artifacts of Isildur's day when Orthanc was later thrown open. He undoubtedly knew the Ring was lost by Isildur in the Anduin. And in his pursuits over thousands of years, almost certainly rifled through the ruins of Barad-Dur, delved deeply into the knowledge of the Elves of Eregion, such as had been saved, on the pretext (honestly at first) of discovering a way to undo the ring or its maker.

His search into the Arts of the enemy are supposed to be the thing which, at the very least, sparked his desire to imitate some of those methods for his high purpose as leader of the White Council.

3. He was a Maia, in human form-

The greatness of his noble spirit was ensnared by the weakness of his mortal form, a constant danger to such beings. His true innate power, while limited by the Valar in this quest in order to spare themselves the problem of sending out another potential Dark Lord, was most certainly as great as any High Elven Lord.

And it was Elven Lords, most specifically Celebrimbor of Hollin, who created the greatest of the Elven Rings. But in the very least case he was surely a match in his limited capacity, even for Elrond or Glorfindel, who recognized the Wizards as Maiar spirits and constantly revered and deferred to them.


So while it is unlikely that he got himself enough information to forge a competitor to the One Ring, and more unlikely because he was unable to draw on his full power as had Gorthaur, he could certainly have forged a series of lesser rings, or even a Ring of Power on par with the Three Elven rings whose maker was a mere elf. It's purpose then would be to help him, first of all, find the One. Second, to rule his hoardes, and third to enhance his own limited strength to these ends.

It can be seen by the Dwarves whose own magic was small, or non-existent that certain materials had magical properties in and of themselves, and didn't require a great magic user to forge an Artifact of Power. So even in the enhancing of his own power, Curunir had available a host of useful information. But his ultimate goal was to supplant Gorthaur, now Sauron, and take his place. So the only thing stopping him from pouring his innate power and essence into a ring attempt would only be the lack of information on how to do so.

Therefore I find it reasonable to conceive of the idea that he probably got 'somewhere' in his effort, and based on the thread subject, likely spent himself to the verge of nothingness, rather than his fate being some judgement of Eru or the Valar, because in the Silmarillion, even Gorthaur the Cruel got the chance to repent and go back to Valinor to the ghastly and terrible sentence of "Community Service" like Melkor had at first. And Curunir of Valinor, while fallen and most certainly guilty of many crimes, still hadn't commited the kind of acts from which Gorthaur was given the opportunity to repent.

All things being even, it's hard to argue that the Valar would suddenly become more harsh with Curunir than they had ever been with Gorthaur, or even Melkor, whose crimes against Middle-Earth were abhorrent and horrible in the extreme. No, I believe Curunir of Valinor, or Saruman the Wise, got his fate by doing the dangerous self-jeopardizing things which Sauron did, and in the same way reaped the same result. And even if at first the Valar were innocent and ignorant of the ways of evil, and therefore a bit more hopeful of their repentance, and an argument made for their becoming justly less tolerant of evil, it's still very difficult to discover on all of his doings where Curunir warranted a random dissipation of his essence. Rather, he would have been taken to Mandos to serve a sentence that lasted until the last battle, at most, and neither did the Valar have the authority, even if they had the power, to dissipate a fellow Ainu in judgement of anything.

The way that his shadow looked Westward for pardon may have been a plea to the Valar to assist him or entreat Eru to assist him against this fate of endless nothingness, and sought for a restoration to his original Maia status.

Of course, this is only pure speculation on my part.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Now, we see from Sauron's appearance among the Elves of Eregion as Annatar, that he came as a "Teacher" and a "Lord of Gifts" supplying secret knowledge by which the Elves were able to combine their own lore and create the Great Rings. Therefore it is an easy jump to assume that Curunir, being also from Aule's people, already had a great store of "once secret" knowledge of his own... enough to at least begin the trials of ring making. His only missing element should have been the discoveries of Celebrimbor and the Smith's of Hollin.

While much had perished in the Wars of the RIng, not all had been lost, as the point continues to prove itself. My own belief is that he attained enough knowledge from secret scrolls and the minds of the Elven ring-wearers to make a serious attempt at a Ring of Power. Because, like Sauron, the greater part of the knowledge to do this seems likely to have already been his.

[Galadriel55]

This brings up another interesting point: was Saruman's ring, if it had Power, under the dominion of the One?

Seems like the palantir was not the only thing he kept secret from the White Council...

New theory for Saruman's corruption: to find out how to best destroy the Ring, he wanted to find out how it wrked. To do that, he tried making one himself, sort-of succeeded, and -

...would be Nazgul#10 if he wasn't a maia, I guess...



And that's assuming that it was indeed a ring of power. The 21st.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

I agree that he couldn't have become a Nazgul because his spirit was not the weak thing as that of a mortal man, but was Maiar. But even Maiar have Hierarchies, Degrees of Power and Authority, one over the other, and it sounds possible that Curunirs ring could fall under the sway of the One.

But bear in mind again that Sauruman was an "Originator" of a ring in the same spiritual order as the other "originator" of the One Ring, being both separated by time in an non-allied endeavor in their ring attempts. Therefore, while, in the case of the Elven rings, Sauron never touched them and yet they fell under the power of the One anyway, this happened because as the originator of the basic lore, it was Saurons special influence and sorcery that made them subject to him.

Saurumans ring-making was an entirely independent attempt based loosely on his own "Ring Craft" knowledge and power, and on the the gleanings from the notes of the Elves of Eregion who made them, which left Saurons influence out of it completely. Saruman would certainly have thought of this before making a ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Only a few quick remarks to what I think about Saruman's ring - I believe it to be, indeed, an attempt (probably the best of his attempts) to create some Rings of his own. However, those rings won't be under the power of the One, as, like with Three, Sauron had no part in their making.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And that's assuming that it was indeed a ring of power. The 21st.

Aside from what I have said above, not 21st either: there were many lesser things apart from the Three, Seven and Nine, according to what Gandalf (and everyone) says about the Smiths of Eregion, and I assume Saruman's would be more similar to those in power. Still, quite enough for Saruman already, in any case, a definite success: "Wow, I actually DID it!" A few hundred years more of research and who knows...? Anyway, despite the Ring being "lesser", even if it reached the power of the lesser Rings of Eregion, it was powerful enough in general terms:

Originally Posted by FotR, The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf to Frodo

The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

As for falling under the power of the One, I differ in opinion on the issue because it says in the books that the Elf Lords perceived the mind of Sauron when he donned the One RIng and hastily removed their own. Yet, after the fall of Sauron by the hand of Isildur, they began wearing them again.

I can't recall if it states flatly that they removed their Elven rings for fear of falling under the dominion of the One or not, but I think it's true that they did so for that reason. Once again, the arcane knowledge that gave birth to the ability to forge the rings were said to have come from Sauron and his influence nonetheless, and had enough of a link to his own being to constitute a threat.

Having said that, I reiterate that Saruman was probably the "source" of his own missing knowledge, apart from that discovered by the Elves, and therefore wouldn't have necessarily fallen under the power of the One. But even if Sauron was powerful enough to instantly infuse himself into every ring subsequently made, if any, he could only do so while in possession of the One Ring. So whether Sarumans ring was subject to the One (which I doubt) or not, until Sauron recovered the One Ring, he and the Elf Lords were quite safe from the hazard of becoming wraiths or Nazgul. And given their magically potent and immortal nature, becoming rather, dark and twisted servants of a higher order than the Nazgul would be liklier in any event.

[Alfirin]

Another fun thought.

Long ago, I started a thread which broached the subject of whether there were orginally supposed to be FOUR, or even FIVE eleven rings; that since each elven ring seemed to be tied to an element, it was odd that there was no ring for Earth (or Spirit, but the One ring fits that quite well in and of itself) Now I'm wondering if Saruman's attempt a a ring would have resulted in just that, a ring of earth. You have said that Saruman might have been able to create a ring on par with the elven rings, and given sarumans love of metal, machinery and tecnology, earth would certainly seem to be his element. Pity we never get a description of what the ring looks like, if it had a green stone (my best guess as to the color of the earth element given red fire, white water and blue sky) that might say a lot.

[blantyr]

Interesting conjectures here. Don't have any answers, but might throw up a few other issues.

I'm inclined to think Saruman's ring less than the 20 Great Rings. Would its power fade after the destruction of The One? Frodo and Sam at least would be aware of Saruman's ring from the Council of Elrond, yet there was no mention of checking his body after his death. I have this image of Frodo and Sam, after their long trip, after the cleansing of the Shire, sitting down in Bag End with a ring on the table between them, likely golden, likely no gem. I've also wondered, if when Elanor went to Minas Tirith with Aragorn and Arwen, if Sam might have asked her, since she was going to be down near Mount Doom anyway, if she might toss this little trinket in the Crack of Doom.

I've also wondered how a wizard's staff compared in power to the Great Rings. They certainly seemed to break more easily. At a guess they might be as The Five, greater than The Seven, less than The Three?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by blantyr

I'm inclined to think Saruman's ring less than the 20 Great Rings. Would its power fade after the destruction of The One? Frodo and Sam at least would be aware of Saruman's ring from the Council of Elrond, yet there was no mention of checking his body after his death.

Whatever Saruman's ring was, no one seemed to be all that concerned about it, including one who knew Saruman better than any: Gandalf. He failed to mention it again after the Council, and even let Saruman pass him and the other travelers by in Dunland, knowing that Saruman might still have it. That tells me that Gandalf had some insight that the ring was not a threat, either as an instrument of power, or a corrupting influence.

Originally Posted by blantyr

I've also wondered how a wizard's staff compared in power to the Great Rings. They certainly seemed to break more easily. At a guess they might be as The Five, greater than The Seven, less than The Three?

There have been some interesting threads here over the years about the staves of the Istari, and what they actually did. Here is one of the most recent.

I don't think the staves and the rings are comparable. The Rings of Power imparted to the wearer power that did not belong to them originally. The staves were, in my opinion, a means of focusing the user's innate "magical" power, much as the wands in the Harry Potter series.

[FlameofAnor]

Is it not realistic to assume Saruman will fight alongside Sauron and Melkor at Dagor Dagorath - the Final Battle? It would suit him. Also, if memory serves me correctly, in one of Tolkeinls volumes, did he not say a third evil would rise as Sauron's equal and fight in The End with Melkor? Could be him, eh?