Gamgees at The Party? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-19-2009, 08:59 PM

I was listening to the Lord of the Rings last night and when it got to the part where Sam was talking about how he and the Gaffer were very much looking towards Bilbo and Frodo's party. This made me wonder if they were actually there. The main reason is, there are genealogies in the Appendices that have all of the guests to the Party underlined, but, funnily enough, Sam and his father are not. In fact, there is actually no evidence in the Fellowship of the Ring that they were there either. It never says that Sam and the Gaffer ever went to the party, I would think that such a major character would go to the Party or at least have it mentioned somewhere, but I could not find one sentence mentioning any Gamgees at the Party. So, how do we know, or not know if there were any Gamgees at Bilbo's 111?

Inziladun · 08-19-2009, 09:07 PM

As the Gaffer had been Bilbo's gardener for many years ( and received birthday-presents from Bilbo ), and Sam was such a close friend of Frodo, it's hard to imagine them not being there at all.
My feeling would be they were likely present for the Party, but not at the restricted 144 guest dinner-party, which seemed to be limited to relations of Bilbo's.

Morsul the Dark · 08-19-2009, 09:17 PM

Well I think the 144 were actually limited to people Bilbo wasn't overly fond of to insult them with his final joke.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-19-2009, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Well I think the 144 were actually limited to people Bilbo wasn't overly fond of to insult them with his final joke.

Frodo was there. Bilbo liked Frodo.

Thinlómien · 08-20-2009, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Frodo was there. Bilbo liked Frodo.

Yes but it was also Frodo's birthday, so of course he was there. I don't think it was only about people he didn't like: he liked some of them probably, and disliked some. It was maybe just the society and the nosy family as an "institution" he didn't like, and probably he didn't care much for most of the guests.

I agree the Gamgees were probably in the party but not in the 144 as Inziladun says, and that also explains the absences of the underlinings in the family trees and the mentions of them in the party (since the narration is concentrated mostly in the 144 tent).

Selmo · 08-20-2009, 03:53 AM

Reading the description of the preparations for the Party, it seems that everyone in Hobbiton and the surrounding area was invited and that would have included the Gamgees.

However, the Gamgees would certainly not have been among the elite group of 144. That was reserved for relatives and special guests of high social status. It is simply not done to invite one's employees or servants to such an event, even if they are close freinds.

Bilbo and Frodo would not have counted the Gamgees as friends. As good employers. they may have respected them, liked them and enjoyed their company, but not as friends. The social gap between them was too great. A true freindship between Frodo ans Sam did not develop untill the quest to destroy The Ring was well advanced.
Think of the party that Frodo held on his last day in Bag End. Merry, Pippin and Fatty Bolger were there, but Sam was not invited, even though he was to join the others on a dangerous journey soon afterwards.

.

Mithalwen · 08-20-2009, 10:38 AM

I think that Sam would have been less likely to be so attached to the party tree had he not been to the party - and considering the Gamgees were neighbours it wouldhave been very rude not to invite them to a firework party on their doorstop - on the principle it it is close enough to annoy them, invite them.

Estelyn Telcontar · 08-20-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Practically everybody living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter.

This supports the idea that the Gamgees were definitely present at the party. I would agree with those who think that they were not among the 144 honoured guests. Perhaps, seeing that they helped out in various functions at Bag End, they may have had some sort of task assigned to them - I can imagine Sam serving beer from the barrel to which he later says farewell!

Morthoron · 08-20-2009, 06:41 PM

The Gamgees parked cars and worked the coat check. They made very little money, as Hobbits are notoriously bad tippers.

Inziladun · 08-20-2009, 06:49 PM

I'd be more apt to think along the lines of Esty. Sam works the crowd..."One for me 'n one for you Mr. Burrows. That's another for me 'n one for you Mrs. Chubb..."

radagastly · 08-20-2009, 08:24 PM

Gotta agree with Esty and Inziladun, the Gamgees were at the party. Except it was probably "One for you, Mr. Proudfoot, two for my Gaffer, and one more for me!"

Seriously, I have no doubt the Gamgees were both at the party, as well as their cousins, nephews, nieces, aunts, uncles, grandfathers, grandmothers, grandaunts and -uncles etc. as well as many and any other relatives they had including assorted siblings (we don't know for a fact that Sam was an only child, only that he was the only one who "made good!")

After all, it is clear that Bilbo planned and executed a community festival, not a private party. The real question is, was this party the clincher in why it was (apparently) so difficult for him to give up the Ring when it came down to it? After all, it was the first time he used the Ring to trick, and not merely to hide. Surely, that stress would have worked on him, at least a little, to make Gandalf's job more difficult in persuading him to give it up?

Just a random thought . . .!

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-21-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

Seriously, I have no doubt the Gamgees were both at the party, as well as their cousins, nephews, nieces, aunts, uncles, grandfathers, grandmothers, grandaunts and -uncles etc. as well as many and any other relatives they had including assorted siblings (we don't know for a fact that Sam was an only child, only that he was the only one who "made good!")

Sam wasn't an only child! He has siblings on his family tree.

radagastly · 08-22-2009, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior:

Quote:

Sam wasn't an only child! He has siblings on his family tree.

I guess I should have checked that before I said anything.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-22-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

I guess I should have checked that before I said anything.

Probably. Sam had five siblings if I counted right.

08-19-2009, 08:59 PM	#1
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Gamgees at The Party? I was listening to the Lord of the Rings last night and when it got to the part where Sam was talking about how he and the Gaffer were very much looking towards Bilbo and Frodo's party. This made me wonder if they were actually there. The main reason is, there are genealogies in the Appendices that have all of the guests to the Party underlined, but, funnily enough, Sam and his father are not. In fact, there is actually no evidence in the Fellowship of the Ring that they were there either. It never says that Sam and the Gaffer ever went to the party, I would think that such a major character would go to the Party or at least have it mentioned somewhere, but I could not find one sentence mentioning any Gamgees at the Party. So, how do we know, or not know if there were any Gamgees at Bilbo's 111? __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

08-19-2009, 09:07 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	As the Gaffer had been Bilbo's gardener for many years ( and received birthday-presents from Bilbo ), and Sam was such a close friend of Frodo, it's hard to imagine them not being there at all. My feeling would be they were likely present for the Party, but not at the restricted 144 guest dinner-party, which seemed to be limited to relations of Bilbo's. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

08-19-2009, 09:17 PM	#3
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	Well I think the 144 were actually limited to people Bilbo wasn't overly fond of to insult them with his final joke. __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

08-20-2009, 06:41 PM	#9
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,509	The Gamgees parked cars and worked the coat check. They made very little money, as Hobbits are notoriously bad tippers. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

08-20-2009, 06:49 PM	#10
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	I'd be more apt to think along the lines of Esty. Sam works the crowd..."One for me 'n one for you Mr. Burrows. That's another for me 'n one for you Mrs. Chubb..." __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

08-20-2009, 03:53 AM	#6
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Reading the description of the preparations for the Party, it seems that everyone in Hobbiton and the surrounding area was invited and that would have included the Gamgees. However, the Gamgees would certainly not have been among the elite group of 144. That was reserved for relatives and special guests of high social status. It is simply not done to invite one's employees or servants to such an event, even if they are close freinds. Bilbo and Frodo would not have counted the Gamgees as friends. As good employers. they may have respected them, liked them and enjoyed their company, but not as friends. The social gap between them was too great. A true freindship between Frodo ans Sam did not develop untill the quest to destroy The Ring was well advanced. Think of the party that Frodo held on his last day in Bag End. Merry, Pippin and Fatty Bolger were there, but Sam was not invited, even though he was to join the others on a dangerous journey soon afterwards. .

08-20-2009, 10:38 AM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I think that Sam would have been less likely to be so attached to the party tree had he not been to the party - and considering the Gamgees were neighbours it wouldhave been very rude not to invite them to a firework party on their doorstop - on the principle it it is close enough to annoy them, invite them.

08-20-2009, 08:24 PM	#11
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	Gotta agree with Esty and Inziladun, the Gamgees were at the party. Except it was probably "One for you, Mr. Proudfoot, two for my Gaffer, and one more for me!" Seriously, I have no doubt the Gamgees were both at the party, as well as their cousins, nephews, nieces, aunts, uncles, grandfathers, grandmothers, grandaunts and -uncles etc. as well as many and any other relatives they had including assorted siblings (we don't know for a fact that Sam was an only child, only that he was the only one who "made good!") After all, it is clear that Bilbo planned and executed a community festival, not a private party. The real question is, was this party the clincher in why it was (apparently) so difficult for him to give up the Ring when it came down to it? After all, it was the first time he used the Ring to trick, and not merely to hide. Surely, that stress would have worked on him, at least a little, to make Gandalf's job more difficult in persuading him to give it up? Just a random thought . . .! __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.