What was Frodo's temptation

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Ok, here's a quesion which I've been thinking about for a long time, both in the privacy of my own dark imagination and more openly here on the Downs (and sometimes amongst very forgiving friends over a pint or three):

What did the Ring promise Frodo that made him finally 'give in' and claim it for his own?

In every other case where we see someone taken by the Ring or tempted by it we are given some indication of the lies being whispered to them by the Ring. Off the top of my head I can think of (being too lazy to look up all the references and trusting to someone with more energy to do it for me if it becomes necessary or useful):

1) Gandalf saying that he would take the Ring from a desire to relieve suffering

2) Gollum is promised "fissh" all day long and sitting on a throne and being The Gollum

3) Boromir wants to be a Captain and defeat Mordor

4) Sam has wild visions of himself as a gardener healing Mordor and turning it green

5) Galadriel wants to be a queen and rule/preserve Lorien forever and unchanging

But we don't get anything like this for Frodo. All we get from him about the Ring is the vision of a wheel of fire with a great Eye in it...hardly a tempting proposition for him I would think. And as he nears Mount Doom the visions of the good things he loves (the Shire) fade rather than grow (it would make sense to me that the obvious lie the Ring would tell him would be that by claiming the Ring he will save the Shire from corruption and stain forever).

So what are we to make of this apparent blank in the narrative? Why has the author left it out?

[Inziladun]

Frodo said things on at least a couple of occasions that might have given hints as to his desires.

I should like to save the Shire, if I could...

FOTR The Shadow of the Past

I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me.

ROTK The Grey Havens



Perhaps the Ring finally convinced him that the only way to ensure the Shire would survive was for Frodo to claim it and return there.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

That's always been my instinctive thought but it doesn't really resolve the problem of why we are forced to assume that in the first place. Wouldn't it make a heck of a lot more sense if the author were to come out and tell us something along those lines? Or even for Frodo to announce that as his desire in some way? But instead we have his assertion that he can no longer remember the Shire...if the Ring were whispering away to him about saving the place, wouldn't it be presenting him with visions of the Shire just as it presented visions of a flowering Mordor to Sam, fishes to Gollum and of victory to Boromir?

And those quotes you give lead to another interesting point: given that Frodo's desire is to save the Shire and that he knows the only way to do it is to throw the Ring away, would that even be the tactic 'chosen' by the Ring? The Ring works by promising what its power can give (satisfaction of selfish desire; providing something that the bearer wants for him or herself) but since Frodo's motivation is selfless perhaps the Ring had nothing to 'work' on. In which case, how was it able to triumph over Frodo in the end? Was Frodo coerced or forced by the Ring in a way qualitatively different than what happened to others, who were perhaps more seduced rather than 'forced'? (If Frodo was indeed forced at all...it's just a thought.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

But instead we have his assertion that he can no longer remember the Shire...if the Ring were whispering away to him about saving the place, wouldn't it be presenting him with visions of the Shire just as it presented visions of a flowering Mordor to Sam, fishes to Gollum and of victory to Boromir?.)

Perhaps when Frodo says he can 'no longer remember the Shire', he refers to the fact that his memories of it at that time are gone, replaced by what is fed to him by the Ring; delusions that he knows at lucid moments to be false. Just a theory, to be sure.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

And those quotes you give lead to another interesting point: given that Frodo's desire is to save the Shire and that he knows the only way to do it is to throw the Ring away, would that even be the tactic 'chosen' by the Ring?

I don't know that the Ring itself 'chooses' the manner in which to break a Bearer. As Gandalf said, the desire of it corrupts the heart; it appeals to the deepest want of its victims, merely using whatever tools are already present. If the desire to save his home was the only way to Frodo's heart, the Ring had to have worked on him using that.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

The Ring works by promising what its power can give (satisfaction of selfish desire; providing something that the bearer wants for him or herself) but since Frodo's motivation is selfless perhaps the Ring had nothing to 'work' on.

Wasn't Sam's motivation selfless also? To save the Ring from capture and continue on with the mission?

[narfforc]

What promise did it give Isildur?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by narfforc

What promise did it give Isildur?

It seems he was just 'generically' tempted by its beauty at first, then had the idea he would keep it as an heirloom of his House. What could it promise him? He was already a king and had just (apparently) defeated Sauron forever.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by narfforc

What promise did it give Isildur?

What about: the power to rebuild the glory of Númenor, unsullied by its Fall, in Middle-earth?

In Fordim's examples for the desires fed by the Ring, the common motive seems to me

• fulfillment of the deepest desire the respective person had independent of the Ring, plus
• a tendency to self-aggrandizement, the wish to be more important, to play a bigger part or to play their part more effectively / on a larger scale, to fulfil their desire all by themselves, to reshape reality to their liking.

The first desire may be completely selfless and for some greater good (indeed is so in all the cases cited except Gollum's, who had been under the Ring's influence for centuries); it's only with the second aspect that selfishness creeps in and begins to overwhelm whatever good there was in the first desire.
Where does this take us regarding Frodo? I once sketched an experimental scenario in this post (last paragraph, skip all the philosophical ramble), but that was more playful than serious, I think we have to dig deeper.

Anyway, Fordim, thanks for starting this thread! It was high time.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I tend to think that the notion of the Ring offering Frodo the safety of the Shire is accurate, since that was what he believed he was doing by continuing the quest. But the farther along it got, and the longer Frodo resisted any temptation of power it might offer, I think It started working on that desire through delusion. Especially once he was within the borders of Mordor, I believe the Ring started to work on him through despair, so that he might start to believe that though it appeared the only way to save the Shire would be through the destruction of the Ring, he would, in despair, "realize" that the only way to save the Shire was by claiming the Ring. Something made Frodo snap at the very end, and as he had never been a person who desired power over others, he either succumbed to the insanity of believing he could be that kind of person, or to the insanity of thinking that only with the Ring could the Shire be saved. Possibly a combination of both. Tolkien always did say that Frodo failed the quest (even though he achieved a kind of moral victory by giving all he had to give in attempting to fulfill it). Succumbing to despair in such a way would, I think, be a significant failure.

Did that make any sense? I have my doubts....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Did that make any sense? I have my doubts....

Certainly it did. That's basically what I meant, with more detail and eloquence.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Something made Frodo snap at the very end, and as he had never been a person who desired power over others, he either succumbed to the insanity of believing he could be that kind of person, or to the insanity of thinking that only with the Ring could the Shire be saved. Possibly a combination of both. Tolkien always did say that Frodo failed the quest (even though he achieved a kind of moral victory by giving all he had to give in attempting to fulfill it). Succumbing to despair in such a way would, I think, be a significant failure.

Aye, and there's the rub. Your take on this is a good one, but one founded only (and necessarily) on supposition and (educated/reasonable) guesswork. It fascinates me that Tolkien left this matter so open and 'undecided'. Even the statement of Frodo's "failure" which you cite is taken from the Letters...nowhere in the book does anyone seem to think of Frodo as failing (even Frodo himself seems to feel that he succeeded...at least he never says, "Oops, I blew it. Put on the Ring. My bad").

So while we can (and have) come up with a number of good theories as to what was going on, that is all they will ever be. It seems to me an important aspect of the book that one of the most central moments (if not THE central moment), when Frodo finally succumbs (as distinct from failure) to the Ring and puts it on. Why does he do this? What is he thinking? We aren't told.

And to address Inziladun's point about Sam's selflessness, I think that while sure he took the Ring for the sake of the quest, when it tried to fool him it did so by playing to his selfish desire to be The Greatest Gardener in Middle Earth (a rival to Galadriel even?). So it's not that Sam is selfish, only that the Ring was playing to that within him which is selfish...which in this case was not stronger than the selfless...

Which brings me back to Frodo...who seemed so entirely selfless throughout that even the Ring couldn't find anything to 'use' against him(?) Making him the only TRULY selfless person in the tale??

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I think Ibrin may have a good point with the aspect of despair. Despair is one of the great sins in Middle-earth, and hope one of the great virtues. We know that Sauron worked on Denethor by leading him to despair, since he apparently could not corrupt him to join him (which would make Denethor more virtuous than Saruman, who was corrupted to join!). This despair was his great failure. To carry on as if one had hope in a hopeless situation is what Gandalf did - was it him or Aragorn who said that they would then carry on without hope?

Giving up before the end (for not even the wise can see all ends) is one of the greatest mistakes that characters make in Tolkien's works. Was the claiming of the Ring giving up/giving in for Frodo?

Very interesting topic, Fordim, and great to have you active again!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Which brings me back to Frodo...who seemed so entirely selfless throughout that even the Ring couldn't find anything to 'use' against him(?) Making him the only TRULY selfless person in the tale??

Frodo was indeed a good hobbit and a selfless person by nature. At the beginning I have no doubt that saving the Shire (and the rest of ME) was his greatest desire. But during the long journey the Ring and Sauron's superior will in it were rubbing on him, slowly poisoning is mind, making him forget the Shire and his priorities:

No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.

By the end of the Quest Frodo becomes quite un-hobbity in mind, sort of wannabe Dark Lord-ish. We have glimpses of the process. Look how Frodo intimidated Gollum:

For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. [...]
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.’

No really, is it a hobbit speaking?

Look also what happened in the Morgul Vale:

He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king – not yet.

Intresting this "not yet". I take it he was diluding himself with the idea to claim the Ring in order to be able to face off the Nazgul... The idea was already there and it would only grow.

And finally in the Cracks of Doom

Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use, and it rose above the throb and turmoil of Mount Doom, ringing in the roof and walls.
‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight.

I don't think Frodo was thinking of saving the Shire at the moment. Not anymore. In his deluded mind, poisoned by the Ring, he contemplated becoming the Ringlord, ruling ME, ordering about the nazgul. He was not Frodo anymore, he was a strange mixture of Frodo and Sauron from the Ring, with the latter clearly prevailing. The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him. That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him.

If that was the case, why would Gollum, who bore the Ring much longer than Frodo and was more enamoured of evil from the start, not have been similarly affected while he possessed it?

(The Ring) could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again.

FOTR The Shadow of the Past

Originally Posted by Gordis

That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

I don't think that was the primary reason the Shire was no longer what it had been to him.

Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?

ROTK Homeward Bound

I had always considered that statement to Gandalf, coupled with Frodo's guilt about his ultimate failure in not casting away the Ring of his own accord, to be the explanantion of his inability to enjoy the Shire afterward. Certainly the loss of the Ring left a lasting impression upon him, but it is only on the anniversary of its destruction that we see him openly mourning it.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that was the case, why would Gollum, who bore the Ring much longer than Frodo and was more enamoured of evil from the start, not have been similarly affected while he possessed it?

A few reasons:
1.Gollum while sitting in his cave had no idea what Ring he had and what Powers it contained. Once he knew, he did get the ideas of Lord Gollum ruler of all.
2. The ring was still almost "dormant", much less powerful than in Mordor with Sauron in full power

And indeed you must be right, Inziladun, the smallness, meanness of Gollum's mind had to be a factor. It seems the ring couldn't simply implant Sauron's ideas/personality in any mind, it had to have something to work on, some response. Gollum was content with his cave, his fish and his Precious. Maybe, unlike Gollum, Frodo had a broad outlook on things, cared about the World, not only about himself. Sauron also "cared" about ME, in his own twisted way. Note how the ring couldn't affect Tom, who cared only about his little land and was not interested in the rest. He didn't wish to better Middle Earth, while Frodo and Sauron did.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I had always considered that statement to Gandalf, coupled with Frodo's guilt about his ultimate failure in not casting away the Ring of his own accord, to be the explanation of his inability to enjoy the Shire afterward. Certainly the loss of the Ring left a lasting impression upon him, but it is only on the anniversary of its destruction that we see him openly mourning it.

Frodo gives the reason himself and you have cited it: "Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same" He has drastically changed himself, that's why. He is not at all the same hobbit who left the Shire a year ago, not even close. And I think the loss of the Ring is his biggest pain throughout, though he tries not to speak of it. It is like a part of his soul is ripped out.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Oh wow, this has all given me a completely new and entirely mind-altering view of Frodo.

Gordis, you wrote:

I don't think Frodo was thinking of saving the Shire at the moment. Not anymore. In his deluded mind, poisoned by the Ring, he contemplated becoming the Ringlord, ruling ME, ordering about the nazgul. He was not Frodo anymore, he was a strange mixture of Frodo and Sauron from the Ring, with the latter clearly prevailing. The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him. That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

Thanks so much for bringing me to this point, for I agree now with almost all that you write...except for one thing: "The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him." From everything we see of the Ring, it just doesn't work like that. Yes, it is motivated by the same selfishness and desire for mastery that motivates Sauron, but it always and only works on or with the material of the person being corrupted...using their own desire for good and perverting it (Gandalf's desire to protect, Galadriel's to preserve, Isildur's for glory, Boromir's for conquest, Sam's for Gardens, Bilbo's for long life, Gollum's for fish). But as Gordis has argued, and I now agree, Frodo succumbs to the desire to be the Dark Lord...which means that at some level this has always been his desire.

See what I mean by mind-altering? Frodo as actually wanting on some level to be the Dark Lord of Mordor??? But really, is there any other option here, given how the Ring works and given the absence of any other explicit kind of temptation. The visions that people have motivated by the Ring are clear indications of how they imagine themselves with it on their finger: Galadriel as a queen, Sam as a Gardener, Gollum as The Gollum, Boromir leading the West to victory. But, again as Gordis points out, Frodo sees himself as the Dark Lord…which means that this vision is coming from somewhere inside.

Again: wow!

So now I’m realising I’m going to have to rethink the entire tale in terms of finding if or where Frodo reveals this desire. I don’t think I could or would ever condemn him for it…not having been a Ringbearer myself and all…but I mean, come on, Frodo! Visions of glory or wealth, the idea of protecting and saving the Shire, these I could understand, but the promise of sitting on the Dark Throne itself and waging war against the Free West…that’s what the Ring finds in you????????????????

[Take that you silly people who want to see Frodo as a Christ-figure!]

[Bêthberry]

Gordis's point is very interesting and so are his quotations. I shall mull these over in another perusal of the book.

What it might mean is that hidden within us all, the best as well as the worst, is a naked and lustful desire for power, control, personal authority and that even in a person such as Frodo, broken by the physical hardships of the journey and the deprivation of light, joy and living being, he succumbs to that basic kernel of flawed Middle earth. You have to wonder what aspects of human nature Tolkien saw in the Somme.

Yet Frodo brought the Ring to the point where conditions would allow its destruction. Those conditions are not predicated upon any man's ability but upon a eucatastrophe.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

But as Gordis has argued, and I now agree, Frodo succumbs to the desire to be the Dark Lord...which means that at some level this has always been his desire.

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

I can't really see that Frodo, or any Hobbit (including Gollum) had, or ever had, a desire to dominate and order the lives of others. Wasn't Hobbit humility, coupled with mercy, what allowed Bilbo to keep the Ring for so long without being completely overcome by it, and what gave Frodo the mental fortitude to get the Ring all the way to Mt. Doom?

[Mnemosyne]

I'm honestly not even sure if I want to know. I love the things that Tolkien left silent (especially about Frodo) for what they are.

Personally, I think that whatever the Ring had tried in the past Frodo was able to beat down sufficiently that eventually it became a simple war of attrition. Frodo doesn't forget the Shire because he doesn't want it preserved as his mental refuge (he says WAY back in Shadow of the Past that even knowing the Shire exists will comfort him); he forgets it because that's one of his lifelines and the Ring is cutting all of them down.

And this would be the point to bring up that famous "I do not choose" line, and the brief scene where Frodo asks Sam to take his hands so he can't take the Ring. That doesn't sound like temptation to me, at least not in its classic sense.

I've seen lots of various answers to this in (where else?) fan fic but they're all based on the fanauthors' interpretations of Frodo and not on canon.

The only canon-based theory that comes to mind right now is the idea of personal recognition: Frodo despairs at Minas Morgul because he's been too late and everyone is going to be killed before he has a chance to do anything. How he masters himself is by then reminding himself that he has to do it anyway, even if no one will know. Similarly (from the same time that he talks about the Shire being a spiritual comfort) he mentions about how dull everyone there is, which when coupled with the note in Letters about how there was still probably after all this time some part of him that wanted to be recognized back home for his deeds (Frodo seems to be pretty uncomfortable with praise abroad) I think that this could have been one flaw for the Ring to exploit (if indeed we are going with that theory about the Ring's nature).

Finally, this is not a false dilemma. He could have been going through anything and more. But whatever it was that finally cracked Frodo, it must have been a pretty small temptation in its natural state if he resisted it this long.

Apologies for the rambles, but if anyone does want to get to the bottom of this (and I for one think that the "Dark Lord" interpretation, while dramatic, is too simple) I think we need to redefine some of the assumptions that go into the question.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by narfforc

What promise did it give Isildur?

It's weregild. Isildur took it as payment for the loss of his father, brother, and Numenor.

So any promises along the lines of restoring those losses would have been very well-taken, though you'd have to be pretty deluded to think you could raise the dead, Ring or no.

[Boromir88]

and what gave Frodo the mental fortitude to get the Ring all the way to Mt. Doom?~Inziladun

Simple, Frodo. If he had temptations to be the Dark Lord from before coming across the Ring (something I am not convinced of), then his ability to resist the Ring must come from Frodo too...correct?

"I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will."~The Council of Elrond

Words of wisdom from Elrond that I share.

I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.

We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our soul-body structure in either action or endurance. Moral failure can only be asserted, I think, when a man's effort or endurance falls short of his limits, and the blame decreases as that limit is closer approached.~Letter 246

Sorry for a long quote, but I think we can learn a lot about Frodo and the Ring from this letter.

This is Tolkien's opinion, he also leaves the possibility that Frodo was a failure, as he "caved" to the Ring, he claims it as his own. For whatever reason, he fails and sees himself as a Dark Lord. However, Frodo had nothing left. His entire strength and endurance was spent.

It's not a matter Frodo having some desire to be a Dark Lord in his heart, while he was wasting space in Bag End. There is a difference between the Ring's power against individuals like Boromir and Gandalf, and the Ring's power against its bearer. Frodo took the Ring (where its essential power of deceipt was to fill people with the delusion of supreme power) to the place where it's power was at a maximum. In fact, I believe the only place where the Ring could get complete control over Frodo would be in the Sammath Naur. How many other characters in the books would you be able to say that about? That the only place to fall to the Ring would be in the Sammath Naur? That is certainly a lot different from Boromir having to make a moral choice while he's alone with Frodo near Amon Hen.

Boromir was corrupted, because right from the reader's first meeting of him, he views the Ring as a weapon that would save Gondor.

Gollum kills for the Ring, because he thought he deserved it.

Frodo doesn't "take" the Ring from anyone, it is left to him by Bilbo. And when he's instructed that the Ring has to be destroyed, Frodo says that's what he wishes...the Ring's destruction. That is a bigger sign of Frodo's character, than the tired, hungry, twisted, spent of strength and endurance, and delusional Frodo we see in the Sammath Naur, where the Ring's power was at it's greatest influence. Not to mention Frodo endured all that pain to get the Ring to the place where it could be destroyed. It wasn't Frodo finally caving into some hidden desire to be a Ring-lord, it was a matter of the Ring being greater than a physically and mentally beaten down Frodo.

As an aside, that is completely off topic, but if you want to blame someone, blame Gandalf. I'm in the opinion, dealing with conspiratory lore, that Gandalf is Sauron.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I can't really see that Frodo, or any Hobbit (including Gollum) had, or ever had, a desire to dominate and order the lives of others.

You forget Lotho, a.k.a. "The Chief". I mean, it didn't work out any too well for him, but he did have a shot at playing petty dictator.

However, I don't think there's any indication that Frodo had a lifelong desire for power (let alone a desire to become the next Dark Lord)– if he had, I'd imagine the Ring would have acted on him a lot quicker.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Finally, this is not a false dilemma. He could have been going through anything and more. But whatever it was that finally cracked Frodo, it must have been a pretty small temptation in its natural state if he resisted it this long.

Apologies for the rambles, but if anyone does want to get to the bottom of this (and I for one think that the "Dark Lord" interpretation, while dramatic, is too simple) I think we need to redefine some of the assumptions that go into the question.

I'd say Frodo does get Dark Lord-ish at the end– but that's what would happen to anyone sooner or later (with the exception of Gollum, for the reasons already stated by Gordis). Perhaps you could say the Ring is "opportunistic"– it will act faster on a person with strong ambitions or outstanding character flaws, but in the end no-one can hold out.

EDIT:X'd with Boro.

[Gordis]

Fodrim, thanks - I am glad you liked my ideas.

But I never said that Frodo had the hidden desire to become the Dark Lord from the very start. Actually I agree with Nerwen.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?

Frodo had the desire to better the world, he cared for it as most good people do and more than that he was willing to act upon it. -
And it was this very desire that the Ring managed to twist and amplify. It would have done the same with Gandalf or Galadriel far easier, because they were not so humble. In Frodo the Ring had to overcome his hobbit humbleness, persuade him that he was the very person destined to become the Overlord. I don't think we was willing to become an EVIL overlord, even at Mt.Doom, but he saw himself as the Ringlord all the same.

In the letter 246 Tolkien describes what would have happened if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring from Frodo and the Nazgul had time to arrive to Mount Doom:

I think [the Nazgul] would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this.

Note Frodo's attitude: he was ready to listen to the Nazgul, to survey his new Kingdom, he was already enmeshed in Napoleonic plans...
Not a thought spared for the Shire, or for the West, or for his friends...

[Boromir88]

but that's what would happen to anyone sooner or later (with the exception of Gollum, for the reasons already stated by Gordis).~Nerwen

I wouldn't call Gollum the exception. It may have been harder, because as Gordis does say, Gollum seemed pretty content to just stay hidden with the Ring in the Misty Mountains. But Gollum just doesn't solely dream about eating lots of fish. He has the same "Gollum the Great" dreams and ruling over the people who he perceived had done him wrong.

The only exception seems to be the enigmatic Bombadil. Why? I don't know, just my own guessing here, the Ring had no effect on Bombadil, because Bombadil was already his own Master. Somehow Bombadil reached a mysterious state where the Ring can't master him, because he is the master of himself...if that makes sense.

It's actually to such a degree that Bombadil would be a horrible Ring-bearer for he would see no importance in the Ring, and toss it away...something that was supposedly beyond the strength of anyone to do.

Edit: hmm...maybe Frodo should have travelled with Bombadil. Frodo could bear the pain and get it to the cracks, Bombadil could take it and toss it in. Could you imagine Bombadil throughout the entire story?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Frodo succumbs to the desire to be the Dark Lord...which means that at some level this has always been his desire.

Interesting thought. What makes Frodo different from everyone else who is tempted by the Ring? Everyone else thinks of what they could do with the Ring - but Frodo's mission is to destroy the Ring ... not to use it. By destroying the Ring Frodo will defeat the Dark Lord.

In other words, Frodo's job is to defeat the Dark Lord. He doesn't have any other desires to rule or order the world that the Ring can work on.

Now ... as Frodo approaches the Sammath Naur the influence of the Ring grows to the point of being unbearable. He no longer has any actual memory of the real world. Finally he reaches the place where he can destroy the Ring, but this is also where its influence is impossible to resist. His willpower has got him this far because his mission is to destroy the Ring (and therefore the Dark Lord) - so what else has the Ring got to work with at this moment but to appeal to Frodo - "don't destroy me, claim me and you can destroy the Dark Lord with my help".

Perhaps Frodo has never consciously thought of being the Dark Lord, but he knows very well that it is his task to destroy the Dark Lord by destroying the Ring. The responsibility weighs very heavily upon him.

One thing that Frodo does desire is wisdom and knowledge ... he is the most learned of all the Hobbits in the Shire. At that final moment of the Doom I imagine the Ring appealing to his intellect ... surely he must have some vanity, no matter how pure his intentions. In a roundabout I think I might be saying something similar to what Gordis said two posts earlier!

Great idea for a thread ... kudos to the original poster, Fordim Hedgethistle!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

As an aside, that is completely off topic, but if you want to blame someone, blame Gandalf. I'm in the opinion, dealing with conspiratory lore, that Gandalf is Sauron.

Oh, like there's anyone who doesn't know that. The whole quest was of course just an elaborate practical joke on the part of the Dark Lord, who planned to shed his good wizard disguise and grab the Ring just when they least expected it. (Mwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!) It's all there when you look for it.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I wouldn't call Gollum the exception. It may have been harder, because as Gordis does say, Gollum seemed pretty content to just stay hidden with the Ring in the Misty Mountains. But Gollum just doesn't solely dream about eating lots of fish. He has the same "Gollum the Great" dreams and ruling over the people who he perceived had done him wrong.

Well, a partial exception– that was an aside, anyway, dealing with Zil's counter-argument at #13.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Edit: hmm...maybe Frodo should have travelled with Bombadil. Frodo could bear the pain and get it to the cracks, Bombadil could take it and toss it in. Could you imagine Bombadil throughout the entire story?

I'd rather not...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You forget Lotho, a.k.a. "The Chief". I mean, it didn't work out any too well for him, but he did have a shot at playing petty dictator.

However, I don't think there's any indication that Frodo had a lifelong desire for power (let alone a desire to become the next Dark Lord)– if he had, I'd imagine the Ring would have acted on him a lot quicker.

You're right, of course, and I should have been clearer about the lifelong distinction. Petty authority in a Shire overrun by Saruman's minions is hardly the same thing as world domination.

I still believe that the desire to save the Shire was the weak point of Frodo, the chink in the armour that allowed the Ring to work its evil. I see no inclination in him at any point in the story that he wished to be a tyrant. Frodo desiring power beyond his measure to accomplish this would not neccessarily mean he wanted to be a Sauron.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

The only canon-based theory that comes to mind right now is the idea of personal recognition: Frodo despairs at Minas Morgul because he's been too late and everyone is going to be killed before he has a chance to do anything. How he masters himself is by then reminding himself that he has to do it anyway, even if no one will know. Similarly (from the same time that he talks about the Shire being a spiritual comfort) he mentions about how dull everyone there is, which when coupled with the note in Letters about how there was still probably after all this time some part of him that wanted to be recognized back home for his deeds (Frodo seems to be pretty uncomfortable with praise abroad) I think that this could have been one flaw for the Ring to exploit (if indeed we are going with that theory about the Ring's nature).

Nice to see you posting here, Mnemi! And I think you're on the right track with this.
Let's not forget that, apart from his few younger friends, Frodo was pretty much an outsider in the Shire, just like Bilbo before him. The other hobbits thought them both eccentric, to say the least, if not worse. Some even suspected Frodo of conspiring with Gandalf to do away with Bilbo and get at his money!
Couldn't Frodo's deepest desire - his one 'flaw', if that's not too strong a word - have been something as simple and human as the wish to be accepted and respected by the community he lived in? To come home and be able to tell all those narrow-minded, self-complacent Grubbs, Chubbs, Proudfeet and Burrowses that they would all be dead or enslaved if the Mad Bagginses hadn't saved them? To make them see and admit how wrong they'd been all the time - not only about him and Bilbo, but also about Elves and Dragons and the world in general?
Understandable as this desire was, it was something the Ring could exploit, twist and distort. 'Just claim me, Frodo, and once we've overcome the Dark Lord, they'll have to acknowledge you as their saviour. We'll make them love you and give you the honour you deserve. We'll teach 'em, yes we will, my precious...'

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Couldn't Frodo's deepest desire - his one 'flaw', if that's not too strong a word - have been something as simple and human as the wish to be accepted and respected by the community he lived in?

I don't think you are on the right tack here. If t were his deepest desire, he could have worked in this direction long before the Quest and obtained wondrous results. Frodo was a Baggins, the wealthy heir of a very respectable family, the owner of Bag End, not some poor gardener or miller. He could have easily become Mayor of the Shire if he had just set his mind on it (and the Ring he kept could have helped a lot). But it seems the attitude of other hobbits towards him bothered him little. He was more interested in lonely strolls, chatting with Elves and Dwarves and reading books.

[Formendacil]

I've been following this thread from Day 1--because it's a Fordhim thread, and words cannot express how happy that makes me--but I've been unable--sadly--to think of anything to add. Going through the additional half of the thread added since yesterday, however, I feel like precious little--or no--mention is made of Bilbo, which is rather odd.

Perhaps the thing is that Bilbo, like Frodo, does not have a given temptation in The Lord of the Rings--unless the desire to hide from Sackville-Bagginses counts. I discount The Hobbit here, not so much because it's non-canonical (still spoiling for that canonicity debate ) as because, admittedly, Tolkien's perception of the Ring's effects changed from the writing of the one work to the other--indeed, in the first, there were no ill-effects for the Ring was not known yet as Sauron's.

Still, we see enough of Bilbo in The Lord of the Rings that you would think we might see his temptation. Not so. Like Frodo, we see that he desires possession of the Ring, but that's about it. Even in the pivotal parting scene at the end of "A Long-Expected Party," we see his projected descent into Gollumry, but we see no temptation. Nor, indeed, is one hinted at.

It occurs to me, perhaps, that insofar as Bilbo and Frodo are remarkably alike, Bilbo can be treated as a control scenario for Frodo--a Frodo who did not have to go to Mordor and to Sammath Naur. Granted, there are legitimate personality differences between the two; Frodo is not Bilbo's alter ego, born exactly 78 years later. All the same, Gandalf especially suggests on a few occasions that they are extraordinarily similar on the points that matter to this discussion--on the points of being Ringbearer.

Gandalf says of Bilbo:

Originally Posted by The Shadow of the Past

'Of course, he possessed the ring for many years, and used it, so it might take a long while for the influence to wear off--before it would be safe to see him again, for instance.

My point here being that Bilbo--despite doing more than any Ringbearer save Gollum in terms of use of the Ring--does not at any point seem to awaken thoughts of domination and power, even though it is patently clear from his actions upon parting with the ring that, in Gandalf's words, he:

Originally Posted by The Shadow of the Past

He said and did things then that filled me was a fear that no words of Saruman could allay. I knew at last that something dark and deadly was at work.

Sauron, by this time, is seeking the One Ring, I believe, and until Frodo ventures to Mordor it might be fair to say that the Ring, of its own volition, might not have worked harder on a Ringbearer than that night to retain its hold on Bilbo--so it is impossible, I think, to say that the Ring was merely dormant in Bilbo's time, as one might say of Gollum.

Obviously, I'm finding it impossible to see Bilbo having any dreams of grandeur or temptations generally--which supports the hypothesis that Frodo, in what might be called his "natural state" would not either, since it removes him from the category of uniqueness.



*Oh*

It has also occurred to me, reading through, to speculate about whether or not Frodo's encounter with the Morgûl-blade might have affected him. We know he was never the same after. Again, from Gandalf's perspective:

Originally Posted by Many Meetings

But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside the coverlet.

Now, admittedly, a physical change in Frodo need not equal a change in his mental framework. However, as it seems to me that the Wraith-ifying process is related to the Ring's effects on the Ringbearer (Hobbit toughness is specifically linked to their slowness at becoming Wraiths), one has to wonder to what extent, if any, the Morgûl-knife had an effect on the process.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I just wanted to say here how much I am admiring Tolkien's craft in all this. The mere fact that we not only can but are having this debate is I think the point. Tolkien did not give us a hero with an easily understood and simple motivation...either for good or for his eventual 'evil' (e.g. his 'failure'). I'm really quite at a loss to think of any hero in heroic literature who is so very opaque on this score. You always know what they are 'about' and what their motivations are. Heroes are simple.

And I admit that I have in the past been rather too simple minded in my approach to Frodo. I figured he was simple too: Ring must be destroyed, so I will destroy it, Ring too strong, but it still gets destroyed by Frodo's goodness. The goodness has never been questionable or dubious to me. Not even mysterious. But now it is.

Nerwen put it best: "But... Fordim, this is all based on your personal interpretation of how the Ring works. If it works by twisting a person's nature, rather than by simply developing it, there's no reason to think Frodo always wanted to be the Dark Lord, is there?" That's what we're working through here...a set of differing interpretations of the book. No big deal in normal circumstances, but what we're differing on, what is mysterious, remains:

a) what was Frodo's motivation for destroying the Ring?

b) what was it in Frodo that made him vulnerable to the Ring and how is that connected to point a)?

c) why is it that his corruption/seduction by the Ring (and is it seduction or corruption--very different things) is so very different in nature from what happens to others?

I still think that it's too simple to brush aside the observation that Frodo was tempted in a way qualitatively (and disturbingly) different from the others. They all wanted to destroy Mordor with their own vision of the world (with them at the helm of course), while Frodo seemed to want simply to take over Mordor. He doesn't wish to mimic the Dark Lord and his works but to usurp him. Chilling stuff if you think of it. To paraphrase Aragorn in Moria, this hobbit is indeed made of sterner stuff than I'd imagined.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

a) what was Frodo's motivation for destroying the Ring?

Duty ... a desire to do "the right thing" no matter how hopeless the cause.

b) what was it in Frodo that made him vulnerable to the Ring and how is that connected to point a)?

Formendacil just mentioned Bilbo and the things that Bilbo and Frodo have in common. The qualities that Bilbo has that makes the difference are pity and mercy. He spares Gollum when he could killed him. So does Frodo. Of course, it is Frodo's act of mercy that means that Gollum can reappear at the climactic moment to enact the providential snatching of the Ring that ensures its destruction.

But ... is this connected with Frodo's desire to claim the Ring? Could it be that at that moment in the Sammath Naur the Ring appealed to Frodo's sense of pity and mercy towards ... Sauron?

Could the Ring have deceived Frodo into thinking that instead of destroying the Ring, and therefore Sauron, he should instead take the Ring for himself and therefore spare Sauron? So at that moment (of madness) it might have seemed to Frodo that becoming the new Dark Lord was the merciful thing to do.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

"the right thing"

Define, please.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Define, please.

To do his duty by seeing his task through to the bitter end. His task, of course, is to destroy the Ring and thereby rid the world of a great evil. There is no hope of reward for Frodo in this ... the likelihood is that he (and Sam) will die even if they are successful.

Nonetheless he undertakes this task, not because there is much chance of success but because it is the only hope the enemies of Sauron have. Therefore it is the right thing to do. It is the duty of all right-thinking people to oppose the encroaching threat of Sauron with whatever means possible. Frodo is the only possible person who can take the Ring to Mordor, consequently doing so is "the right thing" in the sense that it is morally superior to any other option.

Also, in order to keep going on the quest, Frodo has to maintain hope in the face of hopelessness. It is this hope, this faith in the rightness of his quest, that is all he really has to sustain him (other than the support of Sam).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

Nonetheless he undertakes this task, not because there is much chance of success but because it is the only hope the enemies of Sauron have. Therefore it is the right thing to do. It is the duty of all right-thinking people to oppose the encroaching threat of Sauron with whatever means possible. Frodo is the only possible person who can take the Ring to Mordor, consequently doing so is "the right thing" in the sense that it is morally superior to any other option.

Interesting. So in your interpretation of the tale, Frodo's motive for destroying the Ring is explicitly NOT to save the Shire...that is just an ancillary effect, or secondary condition to the real moral obligation he feels to oppose Sauron. Your further point that his duty includes a sense of his uniqueness for this mission (Frodo's belief that he is "the only possible person") perhaps points to an understanding of why he fell to the Ring's power...of the Ring's 'in' with Frodo...

He set out on the quest holding the morally right but rather grandiose belief: "I am the only person who can save Middle-Earth from Sauron." I would think that there's ample material there for the Ring to work on, given that this belief (which is, as you say and I agree, morally right and quite a sound interpretation) verges on a particular kind of pride. I'm not saying that Frodo is naturally prideful or that he begins in that way, but from this perspective it would look as though he's leaving himself open to a temptation from the Ring based on pride: "Yes," it whispers, "You are the only one who can stop Sauron: only you, and you alone. You are very important. Perhaps the most important person in the world. You are the most important person in the world..." and so forth.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

But ... is this connected with Frodo's desire to claim the Ring? Could it be that at that moment in the Sammath Naur the Ring appealed to Frodo's sense of pity and mercy towards ... Sauron?

I must beg to differ here. While you do bring up a very interesting idea, I think that any self-proclaimed Ring Lord knew that before his dominion was complete he would've had to challenge and defeat Sauron. Furthermore, anyone who knew a bit of Sauron's history (like Frodo did) would've recognized that there was simply no way that Sauron would give up his claim to the ring while he had any hope to regain it left.

I am with Boromir88 on this one. I the thought that Frodo was completely and utterly defeated and in a way overthrown mentally and physically appeals to me in ways that no other "excuse" for his behaviour might. He was the "perfect" Ring Bearer and yet even he couldn't make it in the end. The corruption the Ring had on Frodo was that of wakening him to the point where he could no longer oppose the Ring's will. In the end, up until Gollum bit his finger off, Frodo was a slave to the ring. Certainly not a slave to Sauron directly, but a slave to Sauron's will by proxy.

[Keyan]

Good debate here.

What I have always thought is that Frodo is the most uncorruptable person in Middle Earth. Even after possessing the ring for quite some time, he STILL offers it freely to Galadriel. I would think if he had any even remote desire to be the lord of the ring he would never have done this.

I feel that if the ring is in the possession of someone who does not desire power, it acts in a more subtle and sinister way. It becomes precious to the owner. As Isuldur says "Though I bear it with a great pain, I will risk no harm to the ring, it is precious to me" (paraphrased from memory). It begins to take over the bearer's mind by twisting that person's love and loyalty to be directed towards the ring. It begins to make them obsess about it, until finally they can risk no harm to it. It's a survival mechanism. In the hands of someone with ambition to rule, it's path to corruption is simple and swift, in the hands of someone with no such desires, it has to work more slowly. It preserves their life so it has more time to corrupt them, or else it would risk having to start over again on a new bearer. I think Bilbo's obsession with it, even after managing to give it away, shows just how compelling this indoctrination can be.

I think, that in the end, the ring simply had more willpower. It made Frodo go mad when he was presented with the choice to harm the ring, or to do the only other option - take it for his own. He simply could not fight the desire to protect it from all harm.

The huge irony, and one I think is often overlooked, is that the Ring's own survival mechanism led to its own destruction. So completely had it controlled Gollum that he would suffer no other to have his precious. In his mindless glee of having the ring finally back in his possession, he did the one thing that no bearer had ever been able to do when the choice was presented consciously - he destroyed it.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's not a matter Frodo having some desire to be a Dark Lord in his heart, while he was wasting space in Bag End.

It wasn't Frodo finally caving into some hidden desire to be a Ring-lord, it was a matter of the Ring being greater than a physically and mentally beaten down Frodo.

Great thread that really gets to the heart of the matter. And some very insightful observations.

I am inclined, however, to agree overall with Boromir88 that this was not really a case of Frodo's desire to be the Dark Lord, it was a case of the Ring finally destroying Frodo's personality and replacing it with its own. There on the brink of Sammath Naur, it is the Ring pure and simple talking. Here I think the Ring has taken on an identity that is distinct from that of Sauron's, despite Gandalf's statement early in the book that the "Dark Lord and the Ring are one". Frodo's failure, implied by Tolkien, is a failure to resist the destructive power of the Ring, and therefore a failure of strength, rather than moral purpose. Gollum at the end is also completely gone, fried to a crisp (before he falls into the volcano)...

If in the case of Frodo it was merely a matter of his basic character flaws somehow coming to the surface, as might be suggested by too close a comparison with Boromir, then one would expect the description of the gradual decline of Frodo as he approached Sammath Naur to emphasize the surfacing of inner demons. But Tolkien's description emphasizes instead the external malevolence of the Ring of Fire, which appears as an almost physical force beating Frodo down. It is a contest of wills here, and Frodo cannot match that of Sauron...


It seems that Frodo was chosen by Elrond and Gandalf for the quest chiefly because they knew he came with no hidden agendas for power, most similar in this respect to Bilbo, who was able in the end to give it up of his own free will (I doubt we would have had the same conclusion if Bilbo was poised on the brink of Sammath Naur, however).

This interpretation implies, however, that the much more rapid failure of such figures as Boromir (especially) and Isildur (perhaps partly to be expected given the fact that his decision comes also on the brink of Sammath Naur, after witnessing the destruction of first his brother and then his father) to resist the Ring is really a result of the fact that their character flaws removed or at least lowered the obstacles to the Ring's domination of their personalities. One might argue in fact that Boromir never got to the same point of total loss of personality as Frodo does at Sammath Naur, but then he never possessed the Ring.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

This interpretation implies, however, that the much more rapid failure of such figures as Boromir (especially) and Isildur (perhaps partly to be expected given the fact that his decision comes also on the brink of Sammath Naur, after witnessing the destruction of first his brother and then his father) to resist the Ring is really a result of the fact that their character flaws removed or at least lowered the obstacles to the Ring's domination of their personalities. One might argue in fact that Boromir never got to the same point of total loss of personality as Frodo does at Sammath Naur, but then he never possessed the Ring.

Exactly. I would say that in Boromir's and Isildur's case, the Ring offers them what they want and so uses their desire for power to make them want the ring, whereas for Frodo (and the same may have gone for Sam- he was able to give up the Ring even in Mordor and having been offered the chance to make it green) had no desire. Because of this, the Ring had no footholds and I think that in the end it just took control of his mind by force instead of sneaking in the way it did with others. In this way, I think it broke his will more than it did Isildur's, and would have done for Boromir, because they still had an agenda and a plan, whereas Frodo's mind became the Ring's, to the point that he had no will of his own left at Sammath Naur.

[Mnemosyne]

*cough*

Originally Posted by CSteefel

This interpretation implies, however, that the much more rapid failure of such figures as Boromir (especially) and Isildur (perhaps partly to be expected given the fact that his decision comes also on the brink of Sammath Naur, after witnessing the destruction of first his brother and then his father) to resist the Ring is really a result of the fact that their character flaws removed or at least lowered the obstacles to the Ring's domination of their personalities.

Focusing on Isildur here...

1). It does not come on the brink of the Sammath Naur. That was only in movieverse, creating the beautiful plothole of "Why didn't Elrond just push the idiot in???" It does take place in Mordor, but presumably since Sauron's just been completely dispersed I don't think it had the same kind of fell power that it did in Frodo's time.

2). Regarding Eonwe's point. There is no evidence that Isildur wanted to use the Ring for the increase of his own power per se--at least, not the way that Boromir did. After all, they'd just beaten the bad guys, right? It makes a lot more sense for the flaw the Ring exploited to deal a lot more with the losses in Isildur's life: father, brother, and all of Numenor. You could possibly argue that it offered him the power to bring those back in some way, shape, or form... maybe...

Just trying to set a few things straight here. Still irked at PJ's (and the subsequent shift in fandom perception) massacre of the tragedy of Isildur here.