And came there never again as a living man. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 06-18-2009, 03:44 PM

My family watched disk two of the Fellowship of the Ring last night and just for fun I brought my own battered copy upstairs to the TV room and pointed out the inaccuracies. This has nothing to do with my question, but it is when I found this passage...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fellowship of the Ring, book two, Lothlorien

And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man. (emphassis added)

I was wondering what this means. Whether it mans that Aragorn had died and went to Lothlorien after or what? It just puzzled me that it says "came there never again as a living man."

Inziladun · 06-18-2009, 03:47 PM

I always took that to mean simply that he never returned there for the rest of his life.
As for his spirit, who can say?

Gordis · 06-18-2009, 04:14 PM

I think it is the same sort of seemingly ambiguous, poetic statement as the words about the Witch-King:

Quote:

But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.

The ultimate fate of Men remains a big unanswered question...

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 06-18-2009, 04:19 PM

So, you're saying that it is just a poetic statement, that it just means that Aragorn just didn't go there again? It has noting to do with him going there after death?

Oddwen · 06-18-2009, 08:27 PM

Right. He may have returned there in thought, but never again in body.

Sardy · 06-19-2009, 07:58 AM

I'd never noticed that passage, or at least never gave thought to its implications. The question that I'm left with now is why did Aragorn, as King Elessar in the Fourth age, not ever visit Lothlorien? After the War of the Ring had ended, my impression was that he had spent much time travelling Middle-earth, even visiting the Shire. Was he simply too busy to ever return to Lothlorien?

One would think that his relationship with the elves, and his marriage to Arwen in particular, would almost necessitate a visit at some point...

I wonder if there is a particular reason that he never returned? Was he unwelcome there?

Inziladun · 06-19-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sardy

I'd never noticed that passage, or at least never gave thought to its implications. The question that I'm left with now is why did Aragorn, as King Elessar in the Fourth age, not ever visit Lothlorien? After the War of the Ring had ended, my impression was that he had spent much time travelling Middle-earth, even visiting the Shire. Was he simply too busy to ever return to Lothlorien?

One would think that his relationship with the elves, and his marriage to Arwen in particular, would almost necessitate a visit at some point...

I wonder if there is a particular reason that he never returned? Was he unwelcome there?

Too busy doesn't seem all that unlikely to me. He had a kingdom to look after. He did do some traveling obviously, but that seems to have primarily been between Gondor and Arnor. There is no evidence he even returned to Rivendell again, his childhood home.
Why would he have felt a pressing need to go back to Lórien? Nostalgia? He doesn't seem much disposed to that to me. Galadriel and Celeborn both were gone, and I don't see much to draw him back there. After all, Arwen was with him.

Findegil · 06-19-2009, 03:08 PM

Considering that it was at Cerin Amroth that Arwen in the end laid down to recive the gift of Eru to mortals, I am not that sure that Aragorn had no part in this as fea coming to her before he left for Mandos. We have seen such things before with Gorlim the Unhappy, traitor of Barahir, or Beleg comforting Túrin at Eithel Ivrin.

Respectfully
Findegil

The Might · 06-27-2009, 09:03 AM

Great post, Findegil, I was just thinking the same thing while reading through this.
Especially due to his deeds he may have been granted some time in Middle-earth to remain there until Arwen also passed away, so that they could embark onto this unknown journey together.

This idea is also supported by the fact that Beren and Luthien died together on Tol Galen. As such, Arwen and Aragorn were then reunited at the place they first met... quite romantic.

Tuor in Gondolin · 06-27-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

This idea is also supported by the fact that Beren and Luthien died together on Tol Galen.

Which makes all the odder Arwen's essentially loss of faith at the
future upon Aragorn's death. She just had to recall family history.

Laurinquë · 08-03-2009, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man. (emphassis added)

I remember reading that line over and over again when I read FotR for the first time; it really struck as being poetic and somehow hopeful. It always seemed to me to imply that he would return some day, as a dead man I suppose. All the same, it's a favourite quote of mine.

Bêthberry · 08-03-2009, 10:48 AM

I've always thought that, with the passing of Nenya and Galadriel, Lothlorien ultimately faded away. The land itself may still exist, but it's nature altered in that it now admitted of change and decay. This was one reason, to me, why the site of Arwen's grave became lost to human knowledge.

CSteefel · 09-01-2009, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sardy

I'd never noticed that passage, or at least never gave thought to its implications. The question that I'm left with now is why did Aragorn, as King Elessar in the Fourth age, not ever visit Lothlorien? After the War of the Ring had ended, my impression was that he had spent much time travelling Middle-earth, even visiting the Shire. Was he simply too busy to ever return to Lothlorien?

One would think that his relationship with the elves, and his marriage to Arwen in particular, would almost necessitate a visit at some point...

I wonder if there is a particular reason that he never returned? Was he unwelcome there?

I believe that Lothlorien was deserted relatively soon after the departure of Galadriel. Celeborn evidently lived there a short while, but then went to live with the sons of Elrond. So I doubt that Aragorn had any reason to go...

But you may be right, that this prefigures the death of Arwen on Cerin Amroth, and perhaps goes back to what Aragorn says just before he dies:

Quote:

Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.

It seems possible that Aragorn and Arwen are reunited at this site in death...

06-18-2009, 03:47 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	I always took that to mean simply that he never returned there for the rest of his life. As for his spirit, who can say? __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

06-18-2009, 04:19 PM	#4
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	So, you're saying that it is just a poetic statement, that it just means that Aragorn just didn't go there again? It has noting to do with him going there after death? __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

06-18-2009, 08:27 PM	#5
Oddwen Drummer in the Deep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Next Sunday A.D. Posts: 2,145	Right. He may have returned there in thought, but never again in body. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before I listen for returning feet and voices at the door

06-19-2009, 07:58 AM	#6
Sardy Wight Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Posts: 111	I'd never noticed that passage, or at least never gave thought to its implications. The question that I'm left with now is *why* did Aragorn, as King Elessar in the Fourth age, not ever visit Lothlorien? After the War of the Ring had ended, my impression was that he had spent much time travelling Middle-earth, even visiting the Shire. Was he simply too busy to ever return to Lothlorien? One would think that his relationship with the elves, and his marriage to Arwen in particular, would almost necessitate a visit at some point... I wonder if there is a particular reason that he never returned? Was he unwelcome there? __________________ www.scottchristiancarr.com They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes.

06-27-2009, 09:03 AM	#9
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Great post, Findegil, I was just thinking the same thing while reading through this. Especially due to his deeds he may have been granted some time in Middle-earth to remain there until Arwen also passed away, so that they could embark onto this unknown journey together. This idea is also supported by the fact that Beren and Luthien died together on Tol Galen. As such, Arwen and Aragorn were then reunited at the place they first met... quite romantic. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

06-19-2009, 03:08 PM	#8
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Considering that it was at Cerin Amroth that Arwen in the end laid down to recive the gift of Eru to mortals, I am not that sure that Aragorn had no part in this as fea coming to her before he left for Mandos. We have seen such things before with Gorlim the Unhappy, traitor of Barahir, or Beleg comforting Túrin at Eithel Ivrin. Respectfully Findegil

08-03-2009, 10:48 AM	#12
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 5,996	I've always thought that, with the passing of Nenya and Galadriel, Lothlorien ultimately faded away. The land itself may still exist, but it's nature altered in that it now admitted of change and decay. This was one reason, to me, why the site of Arwen's grave became lost to human knowledge. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.