I'm not a Jedi, but a ...

[alatar]

Forms! Forms! Forms! I'm so sick of forms!

Did you ever 'register' a item that you purchased, providing information about yourself in the hopes that, in completing the form, you will be able to make a claim later when said product breaks? You check boxes and fill in answers to questions about the most personal of things, like if you read books, how much money you have, if you are considering purchasing a computer in the next three months, etc. Other forms ask even more detailed information, like which race you belong to and what religion you prefer.

Even on governmental forms, I squirm at answering these last two as the choices provided really don't cover the answers that I would like to provide (especially when you know that phenotypes aren't genotypes), and as I grew in up in a place where I was taught that every year was 1984, I'm always hesitant at picking *any* choice for fear that I am then 'stereotyped.'

So many times, when I even provide information, I choose "Other." Sometimes, when choosing None of the above, you're given the option to write in what you really think. In the past I've indicated that I was a 'Half-Elf,' as I've always have had an affinity for those people, and no one really knows what 'istarian' means - if it's even a word. Anyway, think that I have multiple write in options for the race question, as the WoW and similar games have made fantasy 'races' more mainstream. For religion, on the other hand, I don't have a word that expresses how I feel. Other genres seemingly have had their input, as many have claimed, "Jedi," as an official response to religion preference, though I'm not sure where that word comes from, having never heard it before.

So the question then is, what, if I believed as, say Aragorn or Elrond or Frodo or Galadriel, would be my similar Tolkienesque response?

[Morthoron]

There is an excellent BBC documentary entitled 'Brief History of Disbelief' by Jonathan Miller, which regards the foundations of atheism and explores disbelief in general back to the Greek Philosophers like Democritus and Aristophanes. Have you seen it? It came to mind as I was reading your well-reasoned rant on role-calls.

Labels, it seems, are still a basic requirement in pigeonholing society in their proper places. Governments and corporations are still taking pages from William the Bastard's Domesday Book, and requiring us to regurgitate racial, religious and politicial affiliations (as well as our eating habits, musical preferences, and naughty proclivities) for the implicit purpose of catering to our every need; but, of course, we cynically realize that the actual purpose is to control us (I am feeling rather conspiratorial today).

As far as a Tolkienesque response, I am not sure exactly what you wish me to express in that regard. It seems Tolkien's societies were rather lax on commerce and taxation; ergo, I don't see a country like Gondor expending its energy on a census (I can't recall Tolkien mentioning taxation at all). Middle-earth was certainly segmented along racial lines; after all, there were significantly little mixing of the races (half-elves being rare in the extreme), and there was certainly distinct and pronounced political/geographic designations (either you belonged to the Shire or you were a durn for'ner).

[Boo Radley]

I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that you've never heard the term Jedi before.
I thought Lucas had infiltrated every single minute corner of the planet.
And possibly then some.

And I don't know if I can answer your question or not as religion isn't something that's really talked about in Middle Earth as far as I can recall.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that you've never heard the term Jedi before.

And though we live in the age of Google and now Bing, I figured that I'd still catch at least one with that falsehood; sorry that it was you.

And I don't know if I can answer your question or not as religion isn't something that's really talked about in Middle Earth as far as I can recall.

Assume that you believe that Tolkien's work was some type of revelation, or a way of living. How would you express that?

And thanks for the suggestion and thoughts, Morthoron.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by alatar

And though we live in the age of Google and now Bing, I figured that I'd still catch at least one with that falsehood; sorry that it was you.

Arrgggghhhh! Bamboozled yet again! Curse my midwestern corn fed naiveté!!!

Assume that you believe that Tolkien's work was some type of revelation, or a way of living. How would you express that?

Illuvitarian? Reformed?
No, seriously, if I had read the Simarillion as if it were the Bible I'm still not sure if you could form a religion from it.
You have to admit, Illuvitar is a pretty hands off type of creator. There's not a whole lot of "Thou shalt do this" and "Thou shalt not do that, if thou knows what's good for thee!" in the histories.
Unless I'm forgetting something.

But I don't believe you can have much of a religion if you don't have a deity laying out ground rules.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

Arrgggghhhh! Bamboozled yet again! Curse my midwestern corn fed naiveté!!!

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

But I don't believe you can have much of a religion if you don't have a deity laying out ground rules.

What about belief systems that don't have a deity, such as Buddhism?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

What about belief systems that don't have a deity, such as Buddhism?

As far as political affiliations, were the hobbits squirearchical agrarians? Or would an anarcho-syndicalist commune be more appropriate?

I don't believe there were any Pantheistic worshippers -- like Bombadilian Unitarians. Eruistic Deists may be accounted a belief system in Valinor. There were more pagan demon worshippers (of Morgoth and Sauron) than any other given religion, wouldn't you say?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as political affiliations, were the hobbits squirearchical agrarians? Or would an anarcho-syndicalist commune be more appropriate?

I might as well type random sequences of letters for as much as any form-reader would accept the values you propose.

I don't believe there were any Pantheistic worshippers -- like Bombadilian Unitarians. Eruistic Deists may be accounted a belief system in Valinor. There were more pagan demon worshippers (of Morgoth and Sauron) than any other given religion, wouldn't you say?

What if you took the Sil and TH and LotR as a whole, and made a belief system from it? What would you call that monster?

And Boo Radley, now that we know that I know about the Jedi, and as I saw that their Church has a website, care to comment on their belief system, as I don't remember there being a supreme being in the Star Wars world - though I may have missed it?

[Boo Radley]

OK, instead of "Deity", lets use the term Teacher. Buddha had a system of beliefs, rules, observations that if followed, would lead the believer to a state of enlightenment, or whatever.
There is still interaction and direction.
Not so much with Illuvitar. No burning bushes, no turning himself into a swan for a bit of slap and tickle, no hand writing on the wall.

But, going back to your original question:

...what, if I believed as, say Aragorn or Elrond or Frodo or Galadriel, would be my similar Tolkienesque response?

Chances are your response might be something along the lines of, "I am no member of a religion as I understand the term. Illuvitar created everything and everything is part of Illuvitar. My worship of Him is not required or would even be recognized.
And no, I don't want your magazine."

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by alatar

And Boo Radley, now that we know that I know about the Jedi, and as I saw that their Church has a website, care to comment on their belief system, as I don't remember there being a supreme being in the Star Wars world - though I may have missed it?

" The Jedi church recognizes that all living things share a living force and that all people have an innate knowledge of what is right and wrong, and the Jedi Church celebrates this like no other religion."

That capsule definition from their site says three things. The first two have to be taken on faith and the third... is fairly pointless in my opinion.

Hey! Pretty much what you can say about any religion if you aren't a believer.

I really can't comment on their religion because to the way I was brought up and because of my belief system, it's a made up religion with no basis in the history of any culture, not unlike the religion that L. Ron Hubbard came up with.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

I really can't comment on their religion because to the way I was brought up and because of my belief system, it's a made up religion with no basis in the history of any culture, not unlike the religion that L. Ron Hubbard came up with.

You have to think long term. All religious systems started at some time, and at that time, were typically counterculture and may have even been considered to be 'made up.' Some, of course, used ties to the older established culture to get going, but then went off from there. Others got co-opted and changed directions from the original revelation.

A thought: Though I have lived in the time of Elvis' death, and have been to Graceland, who knows what will be a thousand years from now in regards to "the King?"

Anyway, I've considered answering, "Tolkienite," but this may be wrongly thought to be "Trotskyite," which might not be a good thing. Also, by answering the former, I'm risking getting more spam from the Science Fiction Book club.

[Boo Radley]

But Illuvitarian has such a nice ring to it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

How about Numenorean*? We do know that some religious observance (in the case of Faramir and his men, for example) was linked to the West, so that would seem a viable choice. The word itself offers two religious options: the good Numenoreans, who worshipped Eru, and the Black Numenoreans, who worshipped Sauron.

On the other hand, it could be mistaken for a mathematical cult of some kind if the word is not read precisely.


*I left the accents out on purpose - you wouldn't want to confuse some poor American computer that's attempting to read your form, would you?!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

(I am feeling rather conspiratorial today).

Been reading "Foucault's Pendulum" again, no doubt.

[Morthoron]

Just think, in some countries currently we would be beaten, ostracized or stoned for expressing such subversive religious views (a point made quite clear by Voltaire in my sig line). Thankfully Tolkien, although staunchly religious, did not demean his tale by overtly allegorical means. Which is why it can be enjoyed by folks worldwide no matter their religious beliefs (or disbeliefs as the case may be).

This, of course, allows me to go off on a tangent and repeat the lyrics to that Southern Baptist hymn 'Give Me That Old Time Religion', except taken one step further by that sly old folk singer, Pete Seeger:

Gimme that ole time religion,
Gimme that ole time religion,
Gimme that old time religion,
It's good enough for me.

Let us pray with Zarathustra,
Let us pray just like we used ta,
I'm a Zarathustra booster,
And it's good enough for me.

Let us pray like those old Druids,
They drank fermented fluids,
Waltzing naked through the woo-ids,
It's good enough for me.

Let us pray with Aphrodite,
Let us pray with Aphrodite,
She wears that see-through nightie,
And it's good enough for me.

Let us pray just like we ought'er,
Offer animals for slaughter,
Sacrifice our sons and daughters,
It's good enough for me.

I am sure we could add that good ol' Eru wearing a Ravi Shankar Nehru that he bought while touring Peru...ummm....never mind.

[radagastly]

Sorry, "Athiest" has always been my only answer. Then again, you can take any word and add "-ist" to the end of it, and create your own religion. The first one of those that comes to mind is "Davidist." The ATF burned them to the ground and then some. Who knows what ever really happened?

Doesn't matter.

"Tolkienist," is acceptable. "Eruan," might be a better word, but let's face it, Tolkien would never approve of any of this. He was a Catholic. He really believed it! I'm not asking you to, (I don't, I never have.) but if this is really the what you want, then here it is.

I hope you don't have a problem with it. It really means that you're doing things right.

[Mnemosyne]

I suppose if you wanted to put something down that would follow both Middle-earth itself and what Tolkien thought of it, you'd have to say that you're a Natural Religionist. Of course, that would work better if you're a hobbit-fancier than if you go after those who actually did have some exposure to the revealed religion of Middle-earth...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Forms! Forms! Forms! I'm so sick of forms!

Did you ever 'register' a item that you purchased, providing information about yourself in the hopes that, in completing the form, you will be able to make a claim later when said product breaks? You check boxes and fill in answers to questions about the most personal of things, like if you read books, how much money you have, if you are considering purchasing a computer in the next three months, etc. Other forms ask even more detailed information, like which race you belong to and what religion you prefer.

Off-topic– Alatar, are you sure you actually have to give that information in order to make a claim in the US? In Australia, all you need is proof of purchase. I'm just saying, I think those questions are a bit of a scam.

[Hakon]

This should be a game in Middle Earth Mirth. Lord of the Rings related religions. Here is one Frodoist. Seriously though sometime someone needs to write I worship Melkor or I worship Sauron on a form.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am sure we could add that good ol' Eru wearing a Ravi Shankar Nehru that he bought while touring Peru...ummm....never mind.

This caused me untold pain.

Good job!!!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I suppose I would say that I am Eruhini, a child of Eru, which of course all humans were, and are. I suspect Tolkien would not have approved of it as a basis for an organized religion, but he couldn't have argued with the concept. Besides, I'm not one for organized religions, anyway. I dance to a far too different drummer.

Pigeonholing is one of the most popular pastimes of obsessive controllers, and near always as I have experienced it, usually winds up being abusive. Businesses often call it "demographics," which is their way of figuring out whether or not you and your opinions are worthy of their consideration (all too often based on your age and/or income level). It stinks.

[alatar]

Thank you all for your input.

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

But Illuvitarian has such a nice ring to it.

It just sounds too 'vanilla' and so may be confused with some other idea, like that I don't eat squid.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

How about Numenorean*?

On the other hand, it could be mistaken for a mathematical cult of some kind if the word is not read precisely.

That would be my fear, that either I was into numerology or was way too big a fan of the TV show Numb3rs.

*I left the accents out on purpose - you wouldn't want to confuse some poor American computer that's attempting to read your form, would you?!

Sometimes I would rather deal with a computer, as it least it can be consistent.

Originally Posted by radagastly

"Tolkienist," is acceptable. "Eruan," might be a better word, but let's face it, Tolkien would never approve of any of this. He was a Catholic. He really believed it! I'm not asking you to, (I don't, I never have.) but if this is really the what you want, then here it is.

So you are saying that if I believed that Tolkien works were the basis of a belief system, I should then indicate 'Catholic' on any form? Maybe you mean small 'c' catholic, as in "embracing all things; universal."

I hope you don't have a problem with it. It really means that you're doing things right.

I don't understand what you mean here.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

I suppose if you wanted to put something down that would follow both Middle-earth itself and what Tolkien thought of it, you'd have to say that you're a Natural Religionist. Of course, that would work better if you're a hobbit-fancier than if you go after those who actually did have some exposure to the revealed religion of Middle-earth...

What about some derivation of 'Middle Earther?' That's what I truly believe in, that world and its basis.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Off-topic– Alatar, are you sure you actually have to give that information in order to make a claim in the US?

Surely no company would ask for information that it wasn't absolutely required to have. It's very important, I guess, if you've purchased a washing machine, to know if you golf...maybe it has something to do with the machine's usage...

In Australia, all you need is proof of purchase. I'm just saying, I think those questions are a bit of a scam.

No! I'm shocked to even consider such a thought...<alatar's eyes glance over at the title above his avatar>

Originally Posted by Hakon

This should be a game in Middle Earth Mirth. Lord of the Rings related religions. Here is one Frodoist. Seriously though sometime someone needs to write I worship Melkor or I worship Sauron on a form.

Frodo is a more identifiable word than either of the two Dark Lords, and so you may have something there. And stating that I worshiped either of the latter would, to me, just come off as somewhat childish. I think that the story of the Music of the Ainur is a wonderful 'creation' story, and so would want to indicate that I was more than just a sword-toting thug by my designation.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I suppose I would say that I am Eruhini, a child of Eru, which of course all humans were, and are. I suspect Tolkien would not have approved of it as a basis for an organized religion, but he couldn't have argued with the concept. Besides, I'm not one for organized religions, anyway. I dance to a far too different drummer.

Your religion allows dancing?!?

Pigeonholing is one of the most popular pastimes of obsessive controllers, and near always as I have experienced it, usually winds up being abusive. Businesses often call it "demographics," which is their way of figuring out whether or not you and your opinions are worthy of their consideration (all too often based on your age and/or income level). It stinks.

Yes, but you should try to have some fun with it. Looking over the entire form, you can get a sense of the 'real' question (i.e. wants to pigeonhole you, wants to sell you something, wants to spam you, etc), and so you can then devise a scheme that either gets your returned form thrown out for being an outlier, or skews their research.

The more dichotomies, the better.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by alatar

What about some derivation of 'Middle Earther?'

Maybe Ardan would cover all the possibilities, then. It even sounds as if it could be an actual religion... Ardanism...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Yes, but you should try to have some fun with it. Looking over the entire form, you can get a sense of the 'real' question (i.e. wants to pigeonhole you, wants to sell you something, wants to spam you, etc), and so you can then devise a scheme that either gets your returned form thrown out for being an outlier, or skews their research.

The more dichotomies, the better.

Any scheme to defeat prying and privacy invasion by the makers of products I do or don't want has my complete approval. I recall Stephen King once saying he had put 'rooster worship' as his religion on some questionaire.
I would say 'Endorian', but that could lead to awkward Ewok associations.

[alatar]

I'm becoming partial, as somewhat suggested by Mnemosyne, to Ardaian/Ardaianism <pronounced R - Day - E - an>. Sounds official enough, and I like that 'day' is in the word.

Your pronunciations may vary...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sometimes I would rather deal with a computer, as it least it can be consistent.

Originally Posted by Oscar Wilde

Consistency is the last resort of the unimaginative.

Originally Posted by alatar

The more dichotomies, the better.

I think the more appropriate word to use here is "schisms." If we use Christianity as a model, we would have a variety of Tolkien religions. You know, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Quaker, Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Fundamentalist.

So we should recognise the different factions among Tolkien fans.

For example, those who were mere followers of movie fashions might be considered "Tolkienistas", as simply dedicated followers of fashion. (apologies to Ray Davies)

Tolkienites would possibly be the original wanderers of the holy land, that of first publication whereas Tolkienians might be those of the '70's, the newish cult which carried banners of "Frodo Lives". Then, with the release of The Silm, we might have Christ-Tolkians, as followers of the editing practices of Christopher Tolkien. Those who have truly drunk of the waters of faith, heeding both CoH and S&G, might possibly be considered Tolkienists, in remembrance of Baptists. Those who believe that a Seventh Age epic might be possible could be considered to be Seventh Age Adventists.

I think you get the picture.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Yes, but you should try to have some fun with it.

Oh, certainly. I always enjoy messing with their heads. I usually answer "race" with "human," and sometimes "sex" with yes or no, depending on my whim. And I've put in much stranger things than that. Back when I was very active in SF fan circles, "freaking out the mundanes" was one of our favorite pastimes.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkienites would possibly be the original wanderers of the holy land, that of first publication whereas Tolkienians might be those of the '70's, the newish cult which carried banners of "Frodo Lives". Then, with the release of The Silm, we might have Christ-Tolkians, as followers of the editing practices of Christopher Tolkien. Those who have truly drunk of the waters of faith, heeding both CoH and S&G, might possibly be considered Tolkienists, in remembrance of Baptists. Those who believe that a Seventh Age epic might be possible could be considered to be Seventh Age Adventists.

So, then folks who only follow Middle-earth via the internet would be Tolksbyterians?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I want my computer to be unimaginative, as well as my car, my watch, the roof of my house, the roads over which I traveled this morning... There's room in the world for some consistency as well as the unpredictable, and what of those who are consistency unpredictable (not to mention any nicks)?

I think the more appropriate word to use here is "schisms."

This is another reason to avoid Esty's suggestion, as right off the bat, you have two groups, and eventually that will lead to some ugliness. For example, anyone familiar with the Christmas cartoon, The Year Without a Santa Claus by Rankin/Bass? You'd think that such a 'wonderful' children's cartoon (note that I consider this show to be a form of torture, and avoid it as possible) would not cause controversy, but it did. Ages ago, when I was in school, the show, then shown only seasonally as there's weren't videotapes yet, caught on in class. One guy decided that he liked Heatmiser, and so another just *had* to champion Snowmiser. A day or two later and most of the class is divided into the two factions, with badges and other flare indicating which group one was a member of. I hated the movie even then, and so didn't join either, but this just increased the number of people who didn't like me - each side, when I turned down their offer of membership, *obviously* thought that I was going for the other side - which I wasn't.

Luckily, spring arrived.

Anyway, as Tolkienophiles are a minority, I'd hate to see us fractionated.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

So, then folks who only follow Middle-earth via the internet would be Tolksbyterians?

Indeed. For them, hell is a white screen of doom.

Also, as there was a split in the Presbyterian church in Canada, so there could be a sub-set of Tolkien fans who call themselves Presbytolkians, who argue over whether Tolkien should be read to children or whether children should read him themselves.

EDIT: Look at that! Not only did I cross post with Big al, but our posts are timed the same. He must have beat me by a few seconds. But hey, this isn't an Olypic sport!

But the quandry: do I answer him here, or double post? Or does he double post and correct my fractionating?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

EDIT: Look at that! Not only did I cross post with Big al, but our posts are timed the same. He must have beat me by a few seconds. But hey, this isn't an Olympic sport!

Maybe the posts were alphabetized. And 'al' beats' be' in that race.

But the quandry: do I answer him here, or double post? Or does he double post and correct my fractionating?

I don't think that any number of posts can correct what's fractured with a certain poster - not that I haven't tried...

But now that I've posted, feel free to post a reply to my earlier post (unless you're posting right now).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Anyway, as Tolkienophiles are a minority, I'd hate to see us fractionated.

Well, then, let us avoid fractions, quantums, imaginary numbers, decimals, decibels, and choral bells.

Originally Posted by alatar

]
So the question then is, what, if I believed as, say Aragorn or Elrond or Frodo or Galadriel, would be my similar Tolkienesque response?

I'm willing to bet that the one response which would keep all us Tolkienophiles together would be the response that Tolkien himself would likely have resorted to if such a form came to him on a particularly nasty day in the increasing mordorment of our government.

There, I think that says it with as much cryptic aura as possible.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

quantums

Speaking of all things quantum, let it be known that Bb and I seemingly exhibit some sort of quantum entanglement, where, whichever Tolkienist religion I would end up choosing, she would then instantaneously (and without knowing my choice) choose the diametrically opposed one.

[LadyBrooke]

On the original question, if Aragorn had to answer the form it would probably be "One of the Faithful".

I hate those stupid forms though. There is no good reason you need to know my religon in the U.S. unless something has changed since the last time I read the Constitution and we are now One Nation United Under One Church and you are planning an Inquistation (sp?). Or my gender or my race or anything else. I'm a person who bought your product if I want more info from you I'll contact you.

I never know what to put on the religon question either because I don't belong to any given church. I read the Bible and I believe in God and Jesus. That's it. No Church of Christ or Catholic Church or anything.

Can you tell I've had to fill out some of these forms today?

[Hakon]

A few weeks ago I got my working papers and they asked for an approximate time of birth. Why do they need to know that much? They have the date and the year.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Hakon

A few weeks ago I got my working papers and they asked for an approximate time of birth. Why do they need to know that much? They have the date and the year.

Perhaps it's due to your expiration date. They want to know how long you will stay fresh at room temperature.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Hakon

A few weeks ago I got my working papers and they asked for an approximate time of birth. Why do they need to know that much? They have the date and the year.

That's interesting. Was it somehow linked to astrology?

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

On the original question, if Aragorn had to answer the form it would probably be "One of the Faithful".

That's a bit generic (for those not knowing to what you are referring), and is more than one word. Any ideas on trimming it down?

And I feel your pain.

[LadyBrooke]

These might not be good suggestions but I can tell you what are some Quenya and Sindarin words that might work.

Voronda and vórima are faithful in Quenya, while sadron means faithful one and sedryn means faithful ones in Sindarin. Of the four I think sedryn sounds the best but I'm not sure if this is something along the lines of what you're looking for or not.