Laiquendi

[rmjones0411]

Hello. I thought I would pose this question to some of the Tolkien-scholars who may frequent these boards.

Is there any information in Tolkien's writings that would conclusively rule out the possibility that the Laiquendi (the Green-Elves) were still scattered throughout Middle Earth during the War of the Ring?

I'm working on putting together a bio for my elf character in LOTRO for a role-playing kinship and want him to be true to Tolkien's writings. From what I've read here and on the EoA, I'm finding that there are no references to the Laiquendi after the Second Age.

Thoughts? Ideas? I could post a copy of my story if someone is interested.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by rmjones0411

Is there any information in Tolkien's writings that would conclusively rule out the possibility that the Laiquendi (the Green-Elves) were still scattered throughout Middle Earth during the War of the Ring?.

Those Laiquendi who did not leave Ossiriand for Doriath after their leader, Denethor, was slain, would have remained in Ossiriand until the War of Wrath. The area of Ossiriand that survived the destruction of Beleriand would become Lindon, where they would have assimilated with the remnants of other Elvish clans under the rule of Gil-Galad. Some may have passed over Ered Luin and joined their kinfolk in Mirkwood and Lothlorien, but I think it's safe to say that the specific designation 'Laiquendi', like its predecessor 'Nandor', was no longer used after the 1st Age.

Edit: The Unfinished Tales refers to some Green Elves passing over the Ered Luin and settling in Eriador around Lake Nenuial in the 2nd Age, but there is no further mention of them afterwards. I would suggest that those would have passed on to Mirkwood or escaped back to Lindon before the wars of the 3rd Age.

[Rumil]

Hi rmj,

offhand I can't think of anything much said about the Laiquendi after the First Age. They had originally settled in Eriador beore they moved to Ossiriand.

I guess they had the chance to go to Valinor after the defeat of Morgoth but some probably stayed in Middle Earth, perhaps in Lindon or returned to Eriador, and could have been amongst the Silvan elves that followed Thranduil to Greenwood, which was settled around SA 1000.

Anyone?

Edit- Crosspost with Morth. Sounds sensible to me, interested to hear that they hung around Lake Nenuial, I should think they must have had to move out of the area during the War of Sauron and he Elves, so perhaps back to Lindon or on to Rivendell and Mirkwood?

[rmjones0411]

Thanks so much for your responses!

I'm not at all looking to prove through some part of Tolkien's writings that the Laiquendi DID necessarily exist during the Third Age, but looking for a place where some artistic license could be used to allow for the POSSIBILITY that some scattered groups still existed during the Third Age. Does that make sense?

From your answers above, it doesn't seem to be outside the realm of possibility that some Laiquendi survived into the end of the Third Age.

Does anyone else have a reference or two that would help in this quest for knowledge?

[rmjones0411]

Here's the "bio" I've put together for my character. You'll notice I've replaced references to his name with the designation (Name). This is because I haven't created him yet and it always takes me a dozen tries to find a suitable name that isn't already in use somewhere in LOTRO. So, at the risk of betraying my lack of expertise in all things Tolkien, here goes...

(NAME) – Laiquendi Hunter
(Name) hails from the forests of Forlindon. Though he is of a people who have strived to remain inconspicuous for many centuries, he has greatness in his blood. His father, Elros (Surname), was a warrior in the service of the armies of Gil-Galad during the time of the War of the Last Alliance. Elros perished along with a host of his brethren during the Battle of Dagorlad in S.A. 3434, but not before slaying many enemies and demonstrating great courage on the field of battle. Unfortunately, (Name's) mother was so grief-stricken after her husband was killed that she made her way to Aman to find rest in S.A. 3435. The few remaining elves of (Name's) small community retreated deeper into the forests shortly thereafter for unknown reasons, perhaps in fear of retaliation from the enemy, as many of their most experienced warriors had gone out with Gil-Galad (at this time, Barud-Dur had not yet been overthrown and Sauron was still resisting mightily, though unbeknownst to them, Sauron's focus had shifted to the defense of his fortifications in Mordor). Those that remained were scarcely trained or equipped for battle and were determined to flee to the safety of the forests. As (Name) was still very young at the time (as elves go, less than 100), he was ushered into hiding with the remnant of his people.

As the Third Age opened after the fall of Sauron and the years passed, his people maintained their quiet seclusion, not concerning themselves with the happenings of the world at large. The battles that ended the Second Age had broken the family lines of many of their nobles, and their best soldiers were slain. His people were, in many ways, shamed and defeated. Times of excitement were rare, and his kin neither welcomed nor provoked any kind of disturbance of their peaceful existence. They were content to simply survive. There was a time during the great battles of T.A. 1974-1975, however, when some men of the North Kingdom fleeing into Lindon took refuge for a short time amongst his people. The Dunedain told amazing stories of courage and valor which caused (Name's) heart to yearn for adventure. At the time, he felt the duty to remain with his people and protect them if need be, as these were dangerous times, and he was one of only a few remaining men who could wield a sword. His people offered healing and supplies to the battered soldiers but then quickly disappeared into the forests so as to avoid being discovered by the enemy. (Name) never saw those men again, but often dreamed of a day when he could tell such stories.

(Name) received some weapons training early in life from his father. Many of his most cherished memories were of those times spent together, sparring with wooden weapons and tackling the stalwart swordsman when a well-executed parry rapped the boy's knuckles or left him disarmed. They would wrestle and laugh; but then his father's face would suddenly change and he would sternly admonish his young son, "When the time comes for you to use a real sword, it will not be so easy to smile." When he was young, (Name) was often encouraged to wander and explore the forests. Green-Elves by nature are very secretive and quite adept at hiding in the trees (with help from their customary green-colored clothing). In so doing, he became well-acquainted with both the mundane and the magical; the peaceful and the terrifying – found in the deep forests on the western slope of the Ered Luin.

In recent months, (Name) has heard rumors of dark forces rising once again in the East. They surely threaten all that is good and beautiful in the world. The Green-Elf has decided to follow in the footsteps of his father's brave tradition. The greatness of his bloodline is yearning for freedom, and his curiosity has awakened. It is time for him to wander out from his reclusive community to see what part he might play in the events unfolding in the coming days.

All constructive criticism is welcomed. Thanks for reading.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by rmjones0411

From your answers above, it doesn't seem to be outside the realm of possibility that some Laiquendi survived into the end of the Third Age.

I don't think there was a designation 'Laiquendi' in the 3rd Age, and those Green Elves that settled about Nenuial (Lake Evendim) were long gone when that area was resettled by the Dunedain, who made Annuminas on the shores of the lake their capitol. As I mentioned previously, they most likely returned to Lindon or joined with their kin in Mirkwood or Lothlorien (the Silvan Elves of those kingdoms share the same affinities as the Laiquendi).

Does anyone else have a reference or two that would help in this quest for knowledge?[/QUOTE]

The last reference to Laiquendi appears in the Unfinished Tales, so that would be a start.

[Formendacil]

With regards to the Third Age possible survival of the Laiquendi/Nandor, it's not conclusive, but it is perhaps pertinent nonetheless that when Frodo meets Gildor Inglorion and his companions, he finds it a unique event that they are High Elves, suggesting that any other Elves he has encountered wandering around the Shire have not been (though Bilbo has met Gildor before, it seems this is Frodo's first encounter with High Elves--though not with Elves in general, if my impression is aright).

What this would implicate is that there are other "wandering companies"--since no Elves dwell in the Shire, and Frodo has never left the Shire's borders. If this is the case, and the others are not High Elven, then one must search for an alternative race. Here, it seems, the two main contenders would be the Grey Elves and the Green Elves.

Regarding the Grey, it seems entirely possible that the Sindar had wandering companies, just like Noldor under Gildor, but the Green Elves seem even ore likely on that count, especially insofar as my impression of First Age Eriador is that it was mostly inhabited, as far as Elves went, by Laiquendi who never quite followed Denethor into Ossiriand. Since the Green Elves never seem to have had a fixed abode in Eriador, they may always have been wanderers, and on that basis, it seems to me that if they had any descendants (as seems possible, given that even the ever-diminishing Noldor still have a wandering company or two), they would still be transient, like all their forefathers before them.

A case for plausibility, anyway, seems quite easy to make.

[Galin]

On the names: in the First Age the Elves who crossed into Ossiriand were called Danwaith or Denwaith -- but this people called themselves Lindi (from the old clan-name *Lindai), and the country in which most of them settled they called Lindon (the Sindar previously had named this Ossiriand).

The Sindar, quickly recognizing the Lindi as kinsfolk of Lindarin origin, adopted the names, and then called them Lindil (singular Lindel) or Lindedhil, and the land Lindon, or Dor Lindon. And in Exilic Quenya (the tongue of the Noldor): '... the forms used (derived from the Sindar or direct from the Nandor) were Lindi and Lindon (or Lindóne).'

However these names were later replaced among the Sindar by Laegil, Laegrim 'Green Elves' -- given because of the greeness of the land of Lindon and because the Laegrim clothed themselves in green as and aid to secrecy. 'This term the Noldor translated into Quenya Laiquendi; but it was not much used.' That's the tale from Tolkien's essay Quendi And Eldar anyway (published in War of the Jewels). In The Silmarillion it is said that the singing of the Green Elves could be heard across the waters of Gelion 'wherefore the Noldor named that country Lindon, the land of music...'

In the relatively late text Of Dwarves And Men Tolkien notes that Gil-galad's people were mainly Noldorin, though in the Second Age the Elves of Harlindon were mainly Sindarin, and the region was a fief under the rule of Celeborn. Given that some of the Green Elves had earlier merged with the folk of Doriath, perhaps there were Lindi in the Second Age living in Harlindon, though Forlindon is not necessarily ruled out I think.

As noted in the thread already there were Green Elves in Galadriel's following, but this comes from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, a text which appears to have been revised in certain ways. For myself I'm not wholly sure Tolkien retained the sojourn to Nenuial: in this tale Amroth is born there, being Galadriel's son (a detail later revised), though I suppose the Tolkien-published text in The Road Goes Ever On where Galadriel '... passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion' could be a compressed version.

Anyway, just some stuff for possible consideration.