Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[The Mouth of Sauron]

If I remember correctly, at various points in LOTR and the Aragorn/Arwen tale, Elrond asserts that his children will have "the life of the Eldar" as long as he remains in Middle Earth.

After Elrond leaves, Arwen as we know eventually dies - but does anyone have any idea what happens to Elladan and Elrohir, who according to the account Sam Gamgee gives his children, stay in Middle Earth too ?

[Inziladun]

The end of (Elrond's) sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

Letters # 153

That's what the Professor had to say about it. It would seem that after the departure of Elrond Elladan and Elrohir didn't figure much in the later histories. That would have been in keeping with the accelerating decline of the Elves in influence and importance.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

But couldn't that quote be taken to mean, "I haven't
gotten around to writing it, or maybe I'll keep it
untold to add to that sense of depth I like",
especially since it ends with:

and remain for a while.

?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

"The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" mentions that when Arwen visits Lorien after Aragorn's death it is deserted. The Elves have left. Presumably Elladan and Elrohir had also left Middle Earth by that time, because otherwise Arwen might have chosen to spend her last days with them.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

"The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" mentions that when Arwen visits Lorien after Aragorn's death it is deserted. The Elves have left. Presumably Elladan and Elrohir had also left Middle Earth by that time, because otherwise Arwen might have chosen to spend her last days with them.

What if they had died by that time? Could they have decided to have a life of a human too? Because doesn't it say in the Silmarillion that if you were of Elrond's lineage you could choose whether or not you wanted to be an elf or a human. I vaguely remember reading something about that about two weeks ago.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

But couldn't that quote be taken to mean, "I haven't
gotten around to writing it, or maybe I'll keep it
untold to add to that sense of depth I like"

Of course it could. But to me that means any speculation of the fate of the two is just that: speculation. If they chose the life of the Eldar their options were limited to remaining for a while in ME and then sailing into the West, if they could find or build a ship to bear them, or staying indefinitely, until they, in the words of Galadriel, "forget and (are) forgotten". If they chose mortality, they probably had at least a couple hundred years ahead of them, comparable to Arwen, but I would again question whether they were in a position to do anything really meaningful in the Fourth Age.

[Galin]

The implication from The Lord of the Rings is that they chose mortality -- noting that Robert Foster writes: '... and since they did not accompany Elrond over Sea they seem to have chosen to become mortal'

Entry Elladan, The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth.

[Mnemosyne]

Eh... Foster's guide is not terribly accurate, having (I think) come out pre-Letters. If I recall correctly it also claims that sailing West granted Frodo immortality which we now know is not the case (and even then, could have guessed that it wouldn't be the case because of the way the events of Numenor played out in the appendices to LotR). Since Celeborn (who apparently sailed at an undistinguished time) also did not sail when Elrond did and we have the additional cases of Sam (probably) and Legolas, there's nothing to say that the sons of Elrond couldn't have sailed sometime in the Fourth Age.

For what it's worth (which is very little) the arguments from a literary standpoint which I've seen fanauthors make when they try to work out which kindred they think Elladan and Elrohir chose usually have them side with the elves: the only two Halfelven who we know sided with mortals had some great good that their choice accomplished. Elros founded the ruling line of Numenor, and Arwen helped to restore the glory of the Dunedain in the Renewed Kingdoms. There appears to be no similar destiny awaiting the sons of Elrond should they choose mortality.

And of course, we can't forget that these are two individuals we're talking about. They don't necessarily have to choose the same way.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If I'm recalling his intro to the book correctly, Foster out-and-out refuses to include any information that doesn't appear in TH, LotR, or TS. A good example is his comment that Gandalf "may have been a Maia," and that it is "tempting" to equate him with the Maia Olorin. Tolkien plainly says in Unfinished Tales and in many other writings that the Maia Olorin IS the wizard Gandalf, but it didn't show up in the "story books" (for lack of a better term), so Foster disregards it. For me, that doesn't make him the best source for definitive information about Tolkien's works.

Anyway, I think there is one other factor to be considered in the fates of Elladan and Elrohir: their mother. They chose to go to war in Gondor with the Dunedain not because they strongly identified with mortal Men, but because they "remembered the torments of their mother" at the hands of the Enemy when she and her party had been attacked while traveling from Lothlorien to Rivendell. That they would be so strongly driven by this event, which happened many years before, is, to me, significant. They may have stayed for time after Elrond departed, perhaps because of their sister, but also perhaps because they wanted to be sure the remaining Enemy forces were defeated and either eliminated or no longer a major threat. In the end, they may not have been around when Arwen died because they desired to see their mother, healed and alive again. It was because of her that they fought so strongly against the Enemy, and I find it hard to believe that they would not want to see her again. Just a thought.

[Galin]

To my mind Foster has made a valid enough statement with respect to the Sons of Elrond however -- as I think the implication from various description in The Lord of the Rings is that the Sons of Elrond chose mortality. And I cited this entry because RF is basically going by Tolkien-published text (and Silmarillion) but not Letters.

Letter 153 was written in 1954, and in 1955 Tolkien was still working on texts which would impact this issue -- that is, the Numenorean Kings (i) Numenor, and (V) Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

To put it another way, I would find it odd if Tolkien himself did not think he was leaving such an impression. And again (if I read the textual history correctly that is), Foster's entry is not only based on Tolkien-published description, but based on text that was still being worked on after Tolkien (almost) told Peter Hastings that the end of the sons of Elrond is not told (and etc) (I say 'almost' told Hastings as IIRC Tolkien did not send this letter).

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

If I'm recalling his intro to the book correctly, Foster out-and-out refuses to include any information that doesn't appear in TH, LotR, or TS. A good example is his comment that Gandalf "may have been a Maia," and that it is "tempting" to equate him with the Maia Olorin. Tolkien plainly says in Unfinished Tales and in many other writings that the Maia Olorin IS the wizard Gandalf, but it didn't show up in the "story books" (for lack of a better term), so Foster disregards it. For me, that doesn't make him the best source for definitive information about Tolkien's works.

Well, the revised edition of Foster's Guide was published in 1978 whereas UT and HoMe were published over the course of 1980-1996, if I recall correctly - so let's not be too hard on Foster! Actually I think his Guide is on the whole pretty good considering that the only Middle-earth writings available at the time were The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, the '77 Silmarillion, and The Road Goes Ever On, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

[Mnemosyne]

How does the text imply the sons of Elronds' choice, one way or the other?

[Edit: and I don't want to be too hard on Foster here, but even going with the source material he had he does seem to have published some rather unorthodox opinions. Compare Tolkien's notes in AoTB on "The Sea-bell," specifically on its authorship, with Foster's entry. Tolkien says that it's "highly unlikely" Frodo himself wrote the poem, while Foster suggests that maybe a Fairbairn found a lost text later on and inserted it into the Fourth Age editions of the Red Book. This is all fine and dandy if you're writing fan fiction, but not for a reference work!]

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Somewhere or other T mentions that after Galadriel's departure Celeborn moved to Rivendell and lived with the Sons of Elrond. When or for how long 'tis never said.

[Galin]

In revised editions Note On The Shire Records states that though Elrond had departed his sons '... long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk.'

I think that Foster's entry is not simply based on the sons not sailing with Elrond however, but arguably Elrond's and Aragorn's words from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' Aragorn responds that the years of Elrond's abiding run short at last, '... and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'. Elrond answers 'Truly' but notes 'soon as we account the years'. Earlier in the N. Kings it is also noted that the children of Elrond had the choice to pass '...with him from the Circles of the World; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.'

Of course the option remains that 'with him' means 'as he did' or similar, but especially the conversation with Aragorn seems very much about timing to my mind. There's an interesting draft text called T4 in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which according to Christopher Tolkien: '...was and remained for a long time the form of the Tale of Years that my father thought appropriate, and was indeed proposed to the publishers in 1954.' It reads in part (concerning Elrond's children):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

Again, I realize one can work around this, but taken all together (not that Foster had this last bit to work with) Tolkien has (IMO) at least left the impression that to stay in Middle-earth when Elrond departed reflects the choice of mortality. Of course letter 153 often pops up, that they delayed their choice. Not that I toss out letters (sent or not), but The Lord of the Rings is a different animal, and the text is, in some sense at least, 'later' than the letter. Perhaps people disagree that there is the suggestion that they chose mortality here, but...

... RF used 'seem' at least

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Didn't Aragorn on his deathbed suggest to Arwen that she could "repent and go to the Havens" ?

This suggests that the children of Elrond could cross over the sea and retain immortality anytime during the Fourth Age or even beyond.

Yes, I was thinking this as well. The reason why Arwen rejects the possibility is because she made the choice to be mortal by marrying Aragorn.

As far as we know, Elladan and Elrohir didn't decide to marry mortals, so there was never any action on their part to indicate that they had decided to become Men - unless not leaving with Elrond is definitely the only requirement for them to become mortal.

Arwen had a reason for choosing to stay behind: Aragorn. She couldn't marry Aragorn and take him back to the Undying Lands, so she had to stay. What incentive could Elladan and Elrohir have had to stay behind if it automatically made them mortal?

[Galin]

Arwen's response is Nay, and 'that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence.'

Of course that much is open to interpretation too; but we can at least note that Legolas built a ship in Ithilien after the passing of Aragorn, and I do not think Arwen means the lack of an actual ship is why she must abide her chosen fate.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

What if they had died by that time? Could they have decided to have a life of a human too? Because doesn't it say in the Silmarillion that if you were of Elrond's lineage you could choose whether or not you wanted to be an elf or a human. I vaguely remember reading something about that about two weeks ago.

"The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" indicates that Arwen hasn't aged much at the time of Aragorn's death:

"She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted of the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her."

It appears from the text that she dies of grief and not old age, so it's not clear that Elladan and Elrohir would have died at this stage, had they chosen to become mortal. It has only been 120 years since Elrond has left.

[Galin]

Tolkien's letter seems to imply that the Sons hadn't made up their minds yet, but they arguably would have also been aware (being born in TA 130) that by Aragorn's day the 'choice must soon' be laid upon them -- referring to the time of Elrond's abiding.

Granted the Elvish perspective of years is different. But their Mother had already sailed, their sister chosen mortality, and 'now' their father was soon to sail -- but still no choice? If they were leaning towards immortality one would have thought this was a good time to leave Middle-earth, with their father.

Of course I'm not claiming that there is only one interpretation. One could argue the text could well mean 'with him' in the sense of choose immortality as he did, though at some later time. Letter 153 could well be the 'answer' despite what (I think) is suggested by other description.

I don't think any thread has ever solved this issue, and perhaps Tolkien would have wanted it that way.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However the "long" Tale of Years, TY4, although submitted to A&U, turned out not to be the final word- JRRT made many, many alterations between that version and the historiy printed as Appendices A and B.

I think that this is one of those cases where we have insufficient data, and where quite likely Tolkien himself couldn't make up his mind- like the revised Law of Succession in Numenor. T also had a characteristic habit when referring to something already described of expressing himself elliptically or deceptively categorically- leading in extreme cases to things like the Great Balrog Wings Flame War, or in lesser cases to the Treebeard-or-Bombadil-Eldest affair, or the all-Elves-had-dark-hair shibboleth.

Personally I think E&E eventually sailed West, because of their mother. That would mean that they could up to a point delay their choice-- but I doubt Tolkien really ever thought the question through.

[Galin]

There's an interesting note from H&S in entry...

'She was not yet weary of her days - In his unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963, Tolkien suggests that Arwen could have surrendered her life at the same time as Aragorn, but she was not yet prepared to do so. Although she had become mortal, by nature she was still Elvish, with the long view of life held by that immortal race, to whom 'the gift of the One to men ... is bitter to receive.'

Hammond and Scull, The Lord of the Ring's Reader's Companion

[Mithadan]

This is a question with no easy resolution. From the references quoted above it seems clear that Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen were granted the choice to be numbered among the Eldar or Men. The portions of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen quoted by Galin mean to me simply that they may choose to be mortal and remain in Middle Earth until they die or they may choose to take ship into the West. I do not think Elrond's departure has much to do with it. Arwen's comment 'that choice is long over' means only that she had already made her choice and had to live and die with it.

Elladan and Elrohir's fate is a matter of intriguing speculation. They loved Men enough to fight in Gondor with Aragorn, yet they loved their parents as well. Having risked all to enter Moria to save their mother, I wonder if it would have been too difficult for them to choose to stay in Middle Earth and never see her again.

There appears to be another potential contradiction that is not addressed in this thread to this point. The Akallabeth relates that the "Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given choice of their own destiny." Elrond chooses to be an Elf and Elros chooses to be a Man. This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

This choice is binding upon the offspring and descendants of Elros (and leads to great trouble later). Why should Elrond's choice not be binding upon his children?

This is an excellent question.

I don't really have much of an answer for it, but one thing that comes to mind is maybe it has something to do with the Elven/Valar ultimate envying of Men in their ability to escape the Circles of the World. The Valar maybe persisted in giving the children of Elrond the choice because of their own (the Valar's) possibly growing desire to escape.

[Galin]

Here's my theory anyway. And if it doesn't work I might try to think up another

It's based on some text from Quenta Silmarillion (section 9, The Conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road And Other Writings), in which it is said:

'(...) Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

This is from the version of QS dated mid to late 1930s. If this idea is still in play at least (and I'm not sure that it is), Arwen and her brothers were arguably mortal by default.

This might explain why the choice was extended to Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir -- one parent had chosen the fate of Elves, the other was an Elf, and without being granted other doom their children would, due to still having some measure of mortal blood, be automatically sundered from their parents. This would be a great grief as we know, and a sundering beyond death.

If this holds water, would it not seem fair to someone who might choose an Elvish fate that his children not be automatically mortal? I mean it would arguably tip the scales of the choice before it was made, as Elrond would at least want the hope that his children could pass with him Over Sea.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Once Elros had made his mind up to become mortal, his choice was binding upon his descendants. So presumably Elrond's choice should have been binding upon HIS descendants.

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien). So it's logical to assume that Elrond's descendants, being in effect Elves, could renounce immortality or sail to the West.

I think.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, whilst mortals could never normally aspire to immortality, the Elven-kind could renounce immortality (example : Luthien)

But Luthien was a very, very special case, a unique case: one where Mandos and Manwe made an exception to 'the Rules' only with Eru's express permission.

[Mithadan]

Mouth of Sauron's reference to Elrond's children having "the life of the Eldar" was a statement made by Arwen herself quoted in the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'. It is interesting that Arwen should use such unqualified language.

In 'Many Partings', Arwen tells Frodo "mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter." This choice was apparently made in Caras Galadhon even before she and Aragorn were wed. Appendix A discusses Elrong learning "the choice of his daughter" shortly after Aragorn and Arwen plight their troth. Then as Aragorn speaks to Arwen as he lays in Rath Dinen, she reiterates "that choice is long over."

These quotes suggest that her unique circumstances, her love for a Man at an important juncture in time, somehow allowed her to make the Choice of Luthien, i.e. she was an Elf, by birth not by choice, who was allowed to live the life of a Man. This is consonant with the language from 'Akallabeth' I quote above and my interpretation of that language (which is logical and consistent).

Where there is conflict is the language used by Elrond, speaking to Aragorn years before Caras Galadhon. There Elrond says, as Galin mentions, 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' This implies Arwen has a choice in the matter independent of her then non-existent love for Aragorn (this might be important, these words are spoken only days after they first met and years before they fell in love).

Can the language be reconciled? Should we reject the statement in 'Akallabeth' because it was published posthumously? Should we discount the quotes in the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' becuase the appendices were completed hurriedly and likely lack the attention for detail Tolkien accorded LoTR itself? Or are the words of Elrond ambiguous enough to be interpreted otherwise?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't think there's a meaningful contradiction unless we want to indulge in unrealistic legalisms. The 'legal' position regarding the Halfelven (admittedly unclear) was laid out by the Valar at the end of the First Age.

Statement one (from A&A) and Statement 2 (from Akallabeth) on the "life of the Eldar" aren't contradictory at all. Arwen is speaking in the present tense: rather obviously, she and her brothers have been enjoying the life of the Eldar for centuries, and will continue to do so for a while.

Nor is Cerin Amroth really a contradiction. Whenever according to The Rules her choice might have become operative and irreversible, as far as Arwen herself was concerned her sworn word to marry Aragorn made it inevitable at some point in the future. That doesn't mean that her "Elvish life" was suddenly terminated at that moment.

When did it happen, i.e. at what precise moment was Arwen's future permanently switched from the "quasi-immortal/Mandos" track to the "mortal/Heaven" track? Dunno. Possibly when Elrond took ship, but I don't think so. It probably was the act of physical union with a mortal, by analogy to Melian becoming fully incarnate by similar means- and already just after her wedding Arwen told Frodo that she could not sail West. Perhaps we could also look at Elladan and Elrohir, who plainly stayed on past Elrond's departure, but who also (I am convinced) would never have abandoned their parents and pretty much everyone they had ever known for all eternity, and thus remained of the Elf-kind.

It's very murky what exactly the "change" was in Arwen or when it occurred. I'm not sure there was any physical chenge at all. When Aragorn died, 120 years after their wedding, she was "not yet weary," a stock Tolkien phrase for unaged. My cautious hypothesis is that the "change" was psychological, and spiritual: Arwen laid herself down and died because she couldn't live without Aragorn, not because she 'had to' by virtue of some external compulsion; and the Choice meant that she was permitted to follow him rather than be immured in Mandos.

This implies Arwen has a choice in the matter independent of her then non-existent love for Aragorn

Well, yes, she does: but why would she choose to become mortal, except for her love for a mortal? (To take a trivial analogy: I always had the theoretical option to become a Catholic, but no real reason to exercise it and join the Rome Team until I married a Papist).

[Galin]

In 1972 Tolkien appears to make a distinction (letter 345): 'Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.'

To my mind Arwen's satement: 'Do not wonder! for the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar.' isn't exactly the same thing as simply saying 'we are Elves' (in any case). I think her choice historically echoes that of Luthien (an immortal in any event), in ways similar enough to draw connections, but as WCH notes, Luthien was a unique case.

[Faramir Jones]

We should remember that while Arwen and her brothers had Elrond Halfelven as their father, they had Celebrian, an Elf, as their mother, so were in 'ethnic' terms 75% elvish.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's very murky what exactly the "change" was in Arwen or when it occurred. I'm not sure there was any physical chenge at all. When Aragorn died, 120 years after their wedding, she was "not yet weary," a stock Tolkien phrase for unaged. My cautious hypothesis is that the "change" was psychological, and spiritual: Arwen laid herself down and died because she couldn't live without Aragorn, not because she 'had to' by virtue of some external compulsion; and the Choice meant that she was permitted to follow him rather than be immured in Mandos.

I think you are right on the money, WCH.

I did not get the impression that Arwen became mortal or had death enforced on her when she married Aragorn. Nor that she had aged physically by the time she laid herself down in Lorien or was ever going to. And I don't think she would have been barred from entering the blessed realm were she to repent and sail West after the death of her husband. But this was never an option for her, although she might have wavered slightly when returning to the woodland realm. She had made the choice of Lúthien, to share the fate of her love, and had no intention of backing out of the deal. An absurdly idealised love story, but Tolkien was a grade A romantic, I suppose.

Makes you think of Elros too... Did he 'accept his gift' as a compulsion due to physical weariness, ie aging, or did he eventually do it to stay true to his word? He too was only a quarter of a man.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I think you are right on the money, WCH.

I did not get the impression that Arwen became mortal or had death enforced on her when she married Aragorn. Nor that she had aged physically by the time she laid herself down in Lorien or was ever going to. And I don't think she would have been barred from entering the blessed realm were she to repent and sail West after the death of her husband.

I must disagree. She had made her choice, and as Galin pointed out earlier, she was then bound to mortality. The quote Galin gave of her response to Aragorn's premise that she could "repent and go to the Havens" says not that no ships were available for her to board, but that none would bear her, and that she must abide by her decision, not that she merely wished to do so.

[Galin]

In letter 153 Tolkien does refer to the choice as irrevocable, and that it may be delayed but not permanently -- of course this is the very same letter that says the Sons of Elrond delayed their choice after Elrond sails! OK I can't fairly play both sides of that!

But in any case I think the choice is irrevocable, and though Arwen's response to Aragorn is open to interpretation, she does say she must abide the Doom of Men, whether she will or nill -- if Arwen is saying she must because there's no physical ship around -- in my opinion that loses force as far as the tale is concerned (that is, she is allowed to make a very important and hard decision, but then can repent when it gets tough to abide by it).

And still we know that Legolas built a ship after Aragorn died, which would arguably make her statement (if indeed not merely a poetic way to say 'it's too late my choice has already been made') not even so with respect to the possibility of finding a ship to sail West. Arwen is not some poor maid of Gondor of course, surely the wrights of Ithilien could have made her a vessel if desired.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Certainly Arwen was legally under a ban, not unlike that which had applied to her grandmother but of course for very different reasons. No elvish ship would have permitted her to board; and even had a ship of Men somehow found the Straight Road, she would not have been admitted. Her Aman visa had been cancelled.

The 'official witness' for legalistic purposes would likely have been Gandalf, whom Tolkien described as the plentipotentiary of the Valar in the context of Frodo. At what point was Arwen's "choice" deemed to have become effective? Either upon her marriage, or perhaps in a definitive statement to Gandalf as Manwe's temporary viceregent, I would venture.

But this of course implies nothing about some alteration to her body,* her hroa, which was of the Elvenkind, and thus immune to aging and sickness. One could I suppose imagine an "Oops-Arwen" lingering in Midle-earth for centuries, unable to sail West and unwilling to die, perhaps akin to the 'monsters' of Aman Tolkien posits. But instead she dies of her own (reluctant) free will.

*The movies' "Arwen is dying" rubbish, besides being nonsensical, is the most glaring evidence that PBJ never understood the book they were trying to adapt.

[Mithalwen]

I would have thought that Arwen's choice became final on her marriage. anything else makes a mockery and a nonsense of the pain of her choice for Elrond and her kindred. Had she been able to marry Aragorn AND remain accounted amongst the Eldar, Elrond would have surely waited for Aragorn's death before leaving - given his lifespan it would have been the equivalent of a mortal delaying about a year and a half (yes I have done the sums, sad bean counter that I am). For Arwen not to share Aragorn's mortality seems completely alien to Tolkien's concept of marriage or at least these idealised unions..

I am sure that Arwen did not age in body and thus her fate must have seemed all the harder - it takes bodily distress beyond hope of healing for most of us to contemplate death, as a gift. I think she died of grief.

The slight thorn in this issue is that of Mithrellas. Presumably she abandoned her family because she could not bear to see them age and die - although it says she was taken to wife by Imrazor, I don't think this means it was against her will.

As for Elladan, Elrohir (and indeed Celeborn), I guess they were on some mopping up detail and despite thier close association with the Dunedain I think they probably passed West for the reasons outlined by Ibri.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

The slight thorn in this issue is that of Mithrellas. Presumably she abandoned her family because she could not bear to see them age and die - although it says she was taken to wife by Imrazor, I don't think this means it was against her will.

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And it's interesting (though of uncertain import) that the Lords of Dol Amroth were never accounted "Half-elven;" just Men with an Elvish strain.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Arwen's statement to Aragorn on his deathbed that "there is now no ship that would bear me hence", when considered against the background that Legolas had yet to build his ship in Ithilien, is I think significant.

The physical ability to go West was still therefore an option for Arwen, because a ship would become available. So she either underwent some kind of physical change becoming mortal, and/or was banned from the West, and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.

The same kind of strictures surely didn't apply to Elladan and Elrohir and I'm pretty certain they remained of elven-kind and could go West any time they chose during the Fourth Age.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.

Well, Tolkien expressly denied this last option.

It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority'....No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

He then says something which bears on the matter of Arwen herself:

and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'.

This is doubly interesting: the implication (reinforcing others) that by the time of Arwen's discussion with Frodo in the garden, the Choice was already operative (before Elrond's sailing); and also the implication that those of the Elvenkind were somehow in closer "communication" (whatever that means) than mortals.

What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange.

There is a trend in Tolkien, at least in his later reflections on his work, that 'exceptions' were granted specifically in those cases where a Divine Plan was involved: Melian's becoming incarnate and bearing a child; Luthien's becoming mortal and bearing a half-Elven child; Tuor's finding Gondolin, marrying an Elf and siring Earendil (and, we think, becoming an Elf himself); and Glorfindel's being released and re-embodied not just for his heroism, but specifically because his heroism ensured Earendil's survival. To this we might add the only other Noldorin Exile we know affirmatively to have been released from Mandos, Finrod: his sacrifice allowed the quest of the Silmaril to be achieved, and ultimately the "divine" strain in Men.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

You misunderstand me. I am perfectly aware of who Mithrellas was! I meant that the marriage of Imrazor and Mithrellas doesnt fit in with the idea that Arwen had to give up her elvish life to marry Aragorn and might indicate that theoretically she might have done otherwise . If a silvan elf could marry a mortal and remain Elvish (and presumably pass into the West or return to her own people after it seems unlikely that Arwen would have to if Elrond were prepared to delay his departure (and thus the time of choice ) while Aragorn lived.

If you consider the other Elven/mortal unions that were desired (by one party at least) but not realised (Andreth/Aegnor & Turin/Finduilas), then the sundering of fates that is the main argument against. I don't have Morgoth's Ring with me but in The Silmarillion, Gwindor says " It is not fitting that the Elder children of Iluvatar should wed with the Younger; nor is it wise for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive. But this man is not Beren". Now admittedly Gwindor was not to my knowledge in the confidence of the Valar but he was on the money in other matters.

Fate did suffer the union of Imrazor and Mithrellas for no higher purpose that to illustrate the ennobling qualities of even lesser elven bloodlines and to provide in Imrahil (always a favourite minor character of mine) an example of how Denethor should have been both as a viceroy and kinsman to Faramir. I find it highly unlikely that such nobility should have in it's origins a forced marriage even if a silvan elf (unlike one Eldar) could survive such an event let alone bear children against her will.

Earendil gets the choice because he goes to Aman. Mandos (whose words, one imagines, have more clout in such matters than most) says, "Shall mortal man step living on the Undying lands and yet live?" The matter only is discussed and decided because of Ulmo's challenge. This begs the question, what did Mandos decide with regard to Dior (and most likely Elured and Elurin) when they arrived in his halls before this time when he was presumably acting on his own initiative. He seems to have the default position that it is the father's race that counts in which case Dior was mortal. Yet he had an Elven wife and it is reasonable to assume that if he had been given the choice he would have chosen to be of the Eldar for her sake at least as Earendil did for the sake of Elwing. I do think it is highly unlikely in the light of the concepts of marriage expressed in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar - and of his own Catholicism, that Tolkien would have allowed any who had the choice. to choose a different eternal fate to their spouse.

Yes it can be hard to actually carry out things we have long committed to however wholeheartedly and it must have been particularly hard for Arwen that she did not suffer the physical decline that reconciles the mind to death as release, and that Aragorn gave up his life of his own will but it would subvert the whole thing is she had some get out clause at that stage.

As for Elrond learning of Arwen's choice the next words reconcile it to the earlier reference "When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he... found the doom long feared none the easier to endure.... I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending." Arwen was born in the image of Luthien and to Elrond, farsighted beyond the usual Elvish intuition regarding their children, history repaeting must have always been a possibility - especially when she hadn't found a nice elf-boy to settle down with after a few thousand years... .

In the same paragraph Elrond says that Arwen "shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause". Elrond presumably knows the score and there is no possibility expressed that Arwen could marry Aragorn without choosing mortality. Aragorn also says to Arwen if she cleaves to him she must renounce the Twilight .

However though the choice is made it is only absolute when the condidtions are fulfilled and marriage has taken place for if Aragorn had died in the War of the Ring surely Arwen could have sailed West . After all Arwen's "I will cleave to you Dunadan..|" is expressing intent/desire.

The question of why the choice of mortality is binding on descendents while that of being immortal is not is also answered to my satisfaction at least in Appendix A "the Valar were not permitted to take from them (the Numenoreans) the Gift of Men. From the immortal perspective, release from the burden of immortal life was such a precious gift that anyone with the slightest entitlement to it should not be denied the opportunity. This certainly makes sense when you consider that Elrond's children were overwhelmingly immortal by bloodlines.