Elves and death

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Am I right in thinking that if Elves were killed in battle, their spirits would go to the Halls of Mandos for varying periods of time - and afterwards it was possible for them to return to life in bodily form, even back to Middle-earth ?

[Inziladun]

That was the general theory, though the only Elf I can think of who is mentioned as returning to ME in this fashion is Glorfindel.

[Lindale]

Isn't there a line in Silm (Beren and Luthien middle portion) or the Lay of Leithian about Finrod Felagund back and laughing in the halls of Valinor?

[Elmo]

I recommend you the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth section of Morgoth's Ring. All about the elven and mannish deaths. One of my favourite pieces of writing ever especially the ending. But my copy got nicked.

[Findegil]

Normaly the Elfs would stay in Valinor since that is the place were they were reincarnated. Therefore we only have such a rare example of a reincarnated Elf as Glorfindel.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Andsigil]

Does anyone have any ideas on why Glorfindel was special enough to rate reincarnation/resurrection by Mandos? Certainly he was heroic, but he's also one of many such elves and, judged among them, nothing special.

[The Might]

Well, because of his noble sacrifice another exception was made at first in his case - he was allowed to return to the Undying Lands, although he had participated in the rebellion.

Why he was then allowed to leave the Undying Lands and got to Middle-earth remains a mystery. I doubt he was the only Elf valiant enough to leave Aman and go help the Elves of M-e, maybe it was his skill that played a part there. After all, it's not like the Valar wanted to allow all the Elves there to leave and go destroy Sauron, they had already done that once and it was enough.

So maybe he was kind of a special agent of Valinor chosen due to his skills, courage and possibly also friendship to Gandalf for example? He may have befriended Olorin during his stay there after all...

Thing is he was among those best qualified to come and support Elrond.

[Beregond]

Do you think it is any co-incidence that Gandalf also was "brought back" shortly after destroying a Balrog?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Does anyone have any ideas on why Glorfindel was special enough to rate reincarnation/resurrection by Mandos? Certainly he was heroic, but he's also one of many such elves and, judged among them, nothing special.

Resurrection appears to have been typical for slain elves, but Glorfindel was notable for two reasons. First, he was a Noldo, and the Noldor were banned from returning to Aman--thus also, presumably, banned from reincarnation. Because of his sacrifice he was judged to be absolved of guilt and was allowed to be reincarnated. Second, he returned to Middle-earth after having been restored, which was, as far as we know, unique.

Originally Posted by Beregond

Do you think it is any co-incidence that Gandalf also was "brought back" shortly after destroying a Balrog?

It is. Glorfindel's death and Gandalf's were different, and their means of return was also different. The fact that a Balrog slew them both is irrelevant.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Beregond

Do you think it is any co-incidence that Gandalf also was "brought back" shortly after destroying a Balrog?

I hadn't thought of it that way, to be honest. But Gandalf was a Maiar whereas Glorfindel was "only" an elf. Maiar were an immortal of a higher level, so I didn't think it strange that they got special treatment.

[Andsigil]

TM and obloquy,

I understand what you're saying, but I still see Glorfindel as "average" among the great heroes of the elves. I mean, Gil-Galad defeated Sauron with Ecthelion's help and sacrificed himself in the process. Fingolfin died fighting the Big Kahuna himself, Morgoth. Couldn't one argue that, instead of resurrecting Glorfindel to aid Elrond, why not instead resurrect Gil-Galad or Fingolfin to rule as High King of the Noldor again?

[Gordis]

They all had been resurrected, no doubt, but maybe only Glorfindel expressed a wish to return to ME?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

They all had been resurrected, no doubt, but maybe only Glorfindel expressed a wish to return to ME?

That's literally so simple that I never thought of it. It makes perfect sense.

[Galin]

Tolkien seems to find a number of reasons why Glorfindel was reincarnated (being under the ban was problematic). He didn't list them like this, but here goes:

1) Glorfindel was an Elda of high and noble spirit (I'm going to assume exceptionally high and noble is meant)

2) he incurred the ban reluctantly only because of kinship and allegiance to Turgon, and love for his Kindred.

3) he took no part in the Kinslaying

4) 'More important': he had sacrificed his life, enabling Tuor and Idril to escape, a deed of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.

So Glorfindel was purged of any guilt (in note 12 Tolkien describes that his guilt had been small, and once again refers to his noble character, among other things), released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him to bodily life -- and he gained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. It is then said he became a friend and follower of Gandalf.

Of course much of that's been already covered, but not in list form

[Beregond]

Is that from The Peoples of Middle Earth, Galin? I don't have the book and I cant find the pertinent text online, but I was wondering what Tolkien wrote about Glorfindel there.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I understand what you're saying, but I still see Glorfindel as "average" among the great heroes of the elves. I mean, Gil-Galad defeated Sauron with Ecthelion's help and sacrificed himself in the process. Fingolfin died fighting the Big Kahuna himself, Morgoth. Couldn't one argue that, instead of resurrecting Glorfindel to aid Elrond, why not instead resurrect Gil-Galad or Fingolfin and to rule as High King of the Noldor again?

Originally Posted by Gordis

They all had been resurrected, no doubt, but maybe only Glorfindel expressed a wish to return to ME?

Yes, most likely that, (and Glorfindel was of course not that "average" anyway, but I guess even that was a bit of an exaggeration in your post, Andsigil) and mainly, these "big bosses" often fulfilled their role and it would be kinda weird, that I think is evident even from the point of view of every reader, to suddenly bring them back. Now you will have a guy who will suddenly come and take the "throne" of Noldor again for himself - wouldn't that be a bit queer? I won't mind if it was for example like with Gandalf, immediately after they died, why not, but to bring back some Fingolfin in the middle of the Third Age sounds pretty bad. Aside from the fact that the Elves were leaving the M-E, and their realms were diminishing (I think a good formulation would be "were supposed to diminish, not to grow", if I can phrase it like that).

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, most likely that, (and Glorfindel was of course not that "average" anyway, but I guess even that was a bit of an exaggeration in your post, Andsigil)

I meant average among the Elven heroes, meaning "average" if included in a list of, say, Earendil, Gil-Galad, Fingolfin, Maedhros, Feanor, etc.

No, I didn't mean just, plain average. The guy slew a Balrog!

[Formendacil]

I wish I could remember the reference (it might be in HoME X, Morgoth's Ring, pertaining to comments about Míriel and her refusal to return to her body) so that I might dig it up, but I recall Tolkien writing somewhere that Fëanor was unusual because he would NEVER be re-embodied during the life of this world. (There's a hint of this in the prophetic bit about him breaking the Silmarils and rekindling the light of the Two Trees--clearly an eschatological reference, given the unlikeliness of his re-embodying.) As with his mother, Míriel (and, if I recall HoME X aright, speculatively Finwë), Fëanor is not re-embodied solely because of the "sins" he was responsible for, but because of a disposition on his part--a willingness, as it were, to admit any wrongdoing.

What this would suggest is that re-embodiment is the norm for Elves, as already mentioned by obloquy, and also the length of time spent in Mandos seems to be proportional to how good the Elf was in the first place.* Given the singling out of the cases of Fëanor and Míriel as unusual, we should, in fact, assume that--eventually--Elves such as Fingolfin and Turgon did, indeed, return to life in Valinor.

Although I can (from cursory search) find no text in the Silmarillion to say so, it seemed to me clear that Finarfin rules the Noldor yet, in which case one maybe should ask if Elven culture permits re-embodied lords to resume rule. If my impression is correct, then it seems to be that Elven culture does not, since it also seems apparent that the re-embodied Noldor would not be re-embodied unless they were forgiven of their prior wrongdoings--and if forgiven, they would properly receive back what was theirs, unless death caused their claims to be bypassed (although a case could be made for the opposite position along the lines distinguishing between consequence and forgiveness).

Of course, I could be right about Finarfin remaining king, and it having nothing to do with Elven culture, and everything to do with Elven nature. Barring the example of Glorfindel, although we know that re-embodiment is the natural course for a dead Elf, we have no examples of any returning to a "public" life. Perhaps, therefore, passing through death predisposes most Elves to a life of "retirement," and thus the return of those possessing a prior claim to the Kingship of the Noldor (namely Fingolfin, whenever he might have been released) would not have endangered Finarfin's rule, due to an abdication of such worldliness on the part of the re-embodied Elf.

Certainly, we know from The Fellowship of the Ring that re-embodied Elves are somewhat otherworldly. Note the following quote about Glorfindel:

Originally Posted by Many Meetings

...And here in Rivendell live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the farthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is on the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn....

--emphasis mine.

Although the above text doesn't ascribe anything special to Glorfindel as different from any other Elf, and it is to be supposed that, though more than 6500 years have passed since the Two Trees, there could well still be a few Elves in Middle-earth that marched behind Fëanor or Fingolfin, nonetheless, I would attribute the fact that Glorfindel is so mighty (and indeed few could be sent from Rivendell that had power to withstand the Nine--and Glorfindel was sent west along the road, where they were most likely to be met) to the fact that he had been re-embodied. And, indeed, as the texts about Glorfindel in HoME XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth makes clear**, there does seem to be a gravitas about Glorfindel that is not be found in the other Elf-lords around him: Galdor, Erestor, or maybe not even Gildor Inglorion (who unlike the last two is uncontestably a Noldo).




*As an addendum: it is nowhere said that I can recall that the Noldor (or other Middle-earthian Elves) could not be re-embodied before the Ban was lifted, but this is nonetheless the impression I got. It might be interesting to speculate, therefore, that some of the Eldar had indeed been re-embodied by the time of the Great March, and thus the Host of Noldor led by Finarfin to the War of Wrath may have, perhaps, included re-embodied Noldor... but as I say, this is pure speculation, and it does not seem to be borne out by the tenor of the story. Indeed, the Ban on return to Valinor may have also prevented any re-embodiment (given that it took place in Valinor, and so would have been a form of return) until it was lifted.


**Texts also highly recommended, along with the Míriel related stuff, and the Athrabeth for Tolkien's thoughts on Elven death re-embodiment.

EDIT Cross-posted from Galin, #14, onward.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

They all had been resurrected, no doubt, but maybe only Glorfindel expressed a wish to return to ME?

Ooh! Afterthought!

On this point, there seems to be a lot of truth to it, if only when one considers that the only other returning Elves to Middle-earth had been the exiled Noldor (who returned out of a grudge)--and also because the general trend of Elves who never left Middle-earth was to get on ships and sail back to Valinor. After having tried both, most Noldor seem to have concluded that Valinor held the better life.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

but to bring back some Fingolfin in the middle of the Third Age sounds pretty bad. Aside from the fact that the Elves were leaving the M-E, and their realms were diminishing (I think a good formulation would be "were supposed to diminish, not to grow", if I can phrase it like that).

Quite. And I feel it would have been much better if Tolkien left Glorfy in Valinor as well.

In the Third Age ME Glorfindel becomes a Mary-Sue, complete with blond hair, shining inner light, super-powers (scarier than a Maia, isn't he?), jingle-bells on his bridle and even an animal familiar (Asfaloth). I always hated the guy - and was so very glad he was not included into the Fellowship. With characters of such power the story simply becomes uninteresting.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Thanks for a stimulating set of responses - I'm glad I started this !

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Beregond

Is that from The Peoples of Middle Earth, Galin? I don't have the book and I cant find the pertinent text online, but I was wondering what Tolkien wrote about Glorfindel there.

Yes, my list is based on statements from Glorfindel Essay II in The Peoples of Middle-Earth (Last Writings). Sorry, I should have noted that.

[Beregond]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes, my list is based on statements from Glorfindel Essay II in The Peoples of Middle-Earth (Last Writings). Sorry, I should have noted that.

No, that's fine. Oddly enough I was in the process of asking if anyone had read that section of The Peoples of Middle-Earth , when you up and posted it.

[Galin]

To add, Glorfindel I (GI) might contain an easier reason: that Glorfindel was a companion to Gandalf on his voyage to Middle-earth in the Third Age, possibly as a guard or assistant in addition to being a friend and follower (considering the first words of the second page anyway, noting that the first page is missing).

'... as guards or assistants. An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf-Olórin about Third Age 1000.'

[skipping to end of GI]

'(...) It is indeed probable that he had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olórin, Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned with Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never reappeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer.'

Tolkien seems to reject this in Glorfindel II, but there he appears to be considering it an improbable exception that Glorfindel be sent to Middle-earth after the Blessed Realm was removed from the Circles of the World. OK, but as the focus of the trip was really Gandalf and the mission of the Istari anyway, I don't think it necessarily would make Glorfindel '... of greater power and importance than seems fitting' (GII) to have him accompany the Wizard.

Hmmm. I kind of like this explanation from GI myself.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's interesting, and never expanded on, that the Elves of Valinor (or at least Eressea) frequently visited Numenor before the place went bad- but apparently no farther East. T did note in the margin of Glorfindel that perhaps G returned to M-E on a Numenorean ship.

That Osgiliates into another subject- it seems that Exiles who physically sailed back into the West were confined to Eressea, but this isn't the case with re-embodied Nodor, who after Mandos live in Valinor proper (definitely stated in the cases of Finrod and Glorfindel). I suppose this is because ex-cons are considered 'purged;' it may also be that living returnees have enough of a taste for the Mortal Lands left that timeless Aman would be unpleasant for them.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I know that Maedhros, being a son of Feanor and responsible for the loss of a Silmaril after he threw himself (and it) into a fiery chasm, wouldn't be exactly flavour of the month with Mandos.

But if he WAS ever released to resume bodily form, would he have his right hand back ?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Probably yes. Certainly under Tolkien's earlier view of reincarnation, which was rebirth as a child; and almost certainly so under his later view, where the hroa was reconstituted according to the 'firmware' maintained by the fea: the body as it was or was supposed to be naturally, rather than as mutilated or modified by external forces.

I don't imagine Finrod's new body was all shredded and disembowelled by wolf fangs!

[Alfirin]

That brings up a question that's alaways bugged me (am please forgive me if this has already been asked or was covered somehwhere else). When Beren got his second life (after Luthien sang Mandos into granting it) did he return as he was, or did he also get his hand back?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

That brings up a question that's alaways bugged me (am please forgive me if this has already been asked or was covered somehwhere else). When Beren got his second life (after Luthien sang Mandos into granting it) did he return as he was, or did he also get his hand back?

Well, you see the Valar have always been a bit sloppy -- one could say downright lazy -- in their handling of Middle-earth and its Elves and Men. When they ressurected Beren, they indeed realized he was missing an appendage; however, when they reconstituted him they put on the wrong limb.

In fact, a famous saying arose from the Valar's botch job of Beren's body part. When one is awkward, it is said they walk with two left feet.

And that is the rest of the story.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

That brings up a question that's alaways bugged me (am please forgive me if this has already been asked or was covered somehwhere else). When Beren got his second life (after Luthien sang Mandos into granting it) did he return as he was, or did he also get his hand back?

Maybe not, becuase he (exceptionally) returned as a man as opposed to an Elf. I'm not sure I can recall another mortal who returned that way.

[Findegil]

I am not even sure that Beren and Lúthien got new hora (bodies) at all. Porbably they were simply send back to their old bodies. This Oute from the Silmarillion; Chapter 20 implies that in my interpretation

It is said that Beren and Lúthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; and they took up again their mortal form in Doriath.

For Beren that would of course have involved a healing of the wound from Carcharoth that killed him. But I would think that in this case it was a marvelous healing not a reincarnation into a fresh made body. In Lúthien caase this would not have been any problem since earlier in the Silmarillion Chapter 19 it is said:

But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass.

Which can only mean that Lúthein body was still functionable when she returned.

Respectfully
Findegil