Gandalf's comment about Frodo

[Nenya]

Remember when Frodo and Gandalf are talking in Rivendell after Frodo has woken up? In some point Gandalf looks to Frodo and notices that he looks some how different. (This would be a perfect place for a quote...And I don't have the book now! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Please, please Santa, bring me a copy of LotR!)
Well, he then thinks that Frodo might someday become like a glass filled with clear light, but this would be visible only for those who can see.And later Sam also sees a faint glow around Frodo.("glow" isn't probably the right word, but you get the point) So, what do you think Gandalf means by that? And is this an effect caused by the ring or the wound? I would love to hear your opinions on this!

[The Barrow-Wight]

`Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. `He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.'

[Jellinek]

As I recall, a hit by a Morgul blade in the heart changes the victim into a lesser wraith, a slave of the Nine.

Frodo wasn't hit in the heart, but a splinter was left behind. That splinter had the same effect on Frodo as the ring, but much quicker: fading him.

Because Frodo hadn't used the ring very much since the last time Gandalf had seen Frodo, it's most likely the difference has been caused by the splinter of the blade.

Jellinek

[peregrine]

it may be a precursor to the appearance of the phial of galadriel later on, but I don't know who the "for eyes to see that can" bit refers to. Sam?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I have always taken that scene to be Gandalf's perception of the rings effect on Frodo, who'd owned it now 20 years, however enhanced by the Morgul-knife, Sauron's greater activity, and so forth.

I have taken it in the whole to be a sign of
Frodo's as a representative of purity. The ring is unlikely to corrupt him like Smeagol, or the wraiths, but will hollow him out, leaving only emptiness. Again, it was something only noticeable by Gandalf because he looked, and it is not unlike Frodo's ability to interact with Galadriel on a higher level or to control Gollum. The Ring is having an effect, a mostly draining and depressing one to be sure, but not necessarily a directly evil one.

on that thread....
how come Elrond is so set against Pippin being part of the fellowship? he says something like "my heart forbodes his going" (snorts angrily whilst looking in vain for the book) ...ah well, something like that.
ok, so Pippin screwed up a couple of times-who didn't? but if it hadn't been for pippin Faramir would have been burnt by denethor, and Merry wouldn't have excaped from the orcs, (none of that argument that he only got caught cos of Pippin-merry would of ran off looking for Frodo anyway, and still run into the orcs) and the ents wouldn't have been roused, and Saruman wouldn't have been overthrown.....the little fool of a Took did his part. how come Elrond didn't feel this? and if it was because he didn't know, then why so insistant that he remained behind?

Hello guys
Do you remember me, it has been nearly a year I should say, but now 2 days before the 1st showing of the LOTR in Singapore I am back...

[Fenrir]

Pippin is the youngest (I think) of the hobbits, he is also rather hasty and unthinking.
Elrond also wanted to send someone back to warn the Shire folk of the danger likely to come from Mordor in the near future.

[Lotrelf]

Gandalf might be referring to the future Frodo would have as the result of the quest. Though, I feel, the comment by Gandalf has more meaning than it appears to us. Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond's words cannot be taken lightly, they have deep meaning.

[Mithalwen]

Yes LoTR ELF, Ihave always thought it meant that Frodo had started to live on both sides like Glorfindel. I think he died in a sense, he can no longer return to his old life after this injury.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by peregrine

it may be a precursor to the appearance of the phial of galadriel later on, but I don't know who the "for eyes to see that can" bit refers to. Sam?

Most people of Middle Earth see only the material world. Frodo, when he put on the ring, could see into the wraith world. Nazgul can be seen in detail, not just as black cloaked shapes. Glorfindel can be seen in a brilliant white. I'd guess that the ghost army that waited on the Paths of the Dead could be seen clearly as well. Just a guess.

Certain people or people using certain items can see into the spirit world. These would be those with "eyes to see." Gandalf would be one of them. The Nazgul too, as they could see Frodo more clearly when he wore the ring. I'd guess Glorfindel might as well. From there we could guess at others who might have eyes to see. Sauron, Durin's Bane, Sauruman, Radagast, Bombadil, Goldberry, Galadriel and Elrond seem like reasonable bets. From these plausible examples one might guess that anyone who has completely faded or seen the Light of the Two Trees might qualify, and perhaps all or most Valar and Maiar?

I'm already wildly guessing, and wouldn't care to guess further.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Yes LoTR ELF, Ihave always thought it meant that Frodo had started to live on both sides like Glorfindel. I think he died in a sense, he can no longer return to his old life after this injury.

I'd agree with your comment that Frodo started living in both worlds, but cannot agree that he 'died'. We all know, his wound was spiritual more than being physical; and this is why his spirit was "torn" between the two worlds. The impossibility of his returning to the formar life was not only because of the wound from Morgul Blade,but other reasons too. (my ramblings )

[Pervinca Took]

Certain people or people using certain items can see into the spirit world. These would be those with "eyes to see." Gandalf would be one of them. The Nazgul too, as they could see Frodo more clearly when he wore the ring. I'd guess Glorfindel might as well.

Interesting point, but it doesn't explain why Sam can see the light as well. I think Frodo's visibility to the wraiths is different from the radiance Sam and Gandalf see, although it's possible the wraiths see his visibility as a kind of radiance too. Perhaps they are seeing the same thing, but it manifests itself differently to servants of the Enemy or friends of/people who know and understand the Ringbearer? I think the radiance Sam and Gandalf see is more like the radiance of the Elves, and that they see it because they perceive his purity/nobility (hence the "eyes to see that can.") Faramir doesn't specifically refer to a light or radiance, but maybe he perceives something similar when he says "There is something strange about you, Frodo: an elvish air, perhaps."

[Mithalwen]

LOTR Elf I didn't mean a physical death, per se, but I feel that he has passed the point of no return. Other factors yes but it is the crucial turning point.

[Pervinca Took]

Purely hypothetical, but I wonder if he would have been granted passage West if he hadn't agreed to carry the Ring to Mount Doom. He'd still have had to live with an injury for which there was no cure in Middle-earth. The only other reported survivor of a Morgul-wound died after about twelve years, as I recall.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Purely hypothetical, but I wonder if he would have been granted passage West if he hadn't agreed to carry the Ring to Mount Doom. He'd still have had to live with an injury for which there was no cure in Middle-earth.

I don't think so. The stain and burden of being a Ring-bearer was primarily what opened the way to Frodo. The Ring had at least for a time wholly conquered him, and in his own eyes he had thus 'failed' in his task. The guilt of that coupled with the aftereffects of longing for the Ring made the West the sole hope for him to find peace. It's notable that Bilbo and Sam, both Ring-bearers too, were allowed to go.

[Pervinca Took]

True, but he had already been a Ringbearer, and taken probably at least as much hurt from being one as Bilbo had, if you consider the effects of the Morgul-knife. Of course, it never needs to be considered, because he does assume the role "officially" at the Council. The Wise would have been very culpable, I think, if they'd left Middle-earth without asking for an option for him to join them given all that did happen, but I think they would still have had some level of responsibility to him even if he hadn't taken on the quest. The wound alone would not have been enough to make Frodo want to leave, I think, but still. Perhaps the Wise would have left the Last Homely House open to the Ringbearers as a place of peace and refuge, even if with Elrond and Vilya gone, its healing virtues would have been much lessened (and Bilbo was already resident there, of course). Presumably there were still healers with some of the skill that Elrond had - his sons, and some of the Dunedain, and the remaining Elves themselves.

[Belegorn]

Yes Boromir the Steward had a Morgul wound which pained him until he died. He was feared by the Witch-king.

[Lotrelf]

Has anyone read this article? http://www.frodolivesin.us/Catholicwork/id8.htm
This is a brilliant article, and I hope I'm allowed to post the link, but still...
I have always wondered Gandalf's comment about Frodo, when he says, "He's not half through yet." What did Gandalf mean here? Though, it is clear that Gandalf is talking about Frodo's "come back" to the real world. But, I feel, he also means when he says that Frodo is not "half through yet" that he's not 'half through yet' to becoming like a "glass filled with clear light."

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

LOTR Elf I didn't mean a physical death, per se, but I feel that he has passed the point of no return.

Yes, I understood what you were trying to say by Death. But the Morgul-blade wound made him like Glorfindel instead of making like a Wraith. He'd never be the same again. True. But because of the wound he, instead of diminishing, started growing.
The death you're talking about, definitily took place, but when the Ring was destroyed. He came home, altered, completely. It was something like "he could not go on in the world of mortals because he was like a spirit now." Makes sense?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Though, it is clear that Gandalf is talking about Frodo's "come back" to the real world. But, I feel, he also means when he says that Frodo is not "half through yet" that he's not 'half through yet' to becoming like a "glass filled with clear light."

Or, not "half through" with his quest, and his dealings with the Ring. Frodo would have the opportunity to grow in spiritual power in the near future, and Gandalf suspected he would rise to the occasion. I think it was that spiritual awakening that Gandalf referred to, and Sam observed. It may be noteworthy that it was Gandalf and Sam, who knew Frodo best (save perhaps Bilbo) who perceived that "transparency" of Frodo's.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Yes, I understood what you were trying to say by Death. But the Morgul-blade wound made him like Glorfindel instead of making like a Wraith. He'd never be the same again. True. But because of the wound he, instead of diminishing, started growing.
The death you're talking about, definitily took place, but when the Ring was destroyed. He came home, altered, completely. It was something like "he could not go on in the world of mortals because he was like a spirit now." Makes sense?

We may have to differ on this. But I don't think I am conveying perhaps what I mean well enough. But I certainly think that he passed the point of no return long before the Ring was destroyed.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

We may have to differ on this. But I don't think I am conveying perhaps what I mean well enough. But I certainly think that he passed the point of no return long before the Ring was destroyed.

Yes, that's what I meant in my previous post! I just said he didn't "die." His death also means that his "human (or Hobbit)" part died with the destruction of the Ring and Gollum's death. All those who were tempted by the Ring were perished:Boromir, Gollum and ultimately Souron. This is why I guess Frodo's survival becomes "odd" because he doesn't die literally, but in other ways. Morgul-blade wound was beginning of his new fate.

[Lotrelf]

Makes perfect sense, Inziladun. Perfect.
You said "Sam observes" Frodo's transparency; in the book, when Sam sees the LIGHT in Frodo, he says that Frodo's face looked "old and beautiful." beautiful: Understood. What did he mean by 'Old' ? I thought at this point perhaps the Ring wasn't working i.e. Not Affecting him that much, or the LIGHT was protecting him. But, couldn't this be something about his growing wisdom? After all, Gandalf, Elrond etc. look old. What do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

You said "Sam observes" Frodo's transparency; in the book, when Sam sees the LIGHT in Frodo, he says that Frodo's face looked "old and beautiful." beautiful: Understood. What did he mean by 'Old' ? I thought at this point perhaps the Ring wasn't working i.e. Not Affecting him that much, or the LIGHT was protecting him. But, couldn't this be something about his growing wisdom? After all, Gandalf, Elrond etc. look old. What do you think?

I'm sure the mental strain of constantly resisting the Ring contributed to Frodo's appearance. He had probably been gradually aging in that way since setting out on the Quest, as the Ring's power grew along with Sauron's (and it's growing proximity to Mordor as Frodo and Sam traveled). As in real life, gradual changes often go unnoticed until one has an "aha" moment where life allows a momentary stillness, and time for one to really see something.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm sure the mental strain of constantly resisting the Ring contributed to Frodo's appearance. He had probably been gradually aging in that way since setting out on the Quest, as the Ring's power grew along with Sauron's (and it's growing proximity to Mordor as Frodo and Sam traveled). As in real life, gradual changes often go unnoticed until one has an "aha" moment where life allows a momentary stillness, and time for one to really see something.

How? After getting the Ring, Bilbo stopped aging; Gollum lived for more than 500 years. This means: They stopped aging. Why would Frodo look old, then.? He had stopped aging as well, as we are told in FOTR. Or we are saying the same thing, his "growing wisdom", but differently?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

How? After getting the Ring, Bilbo stopped aging; Gollum lived for more than 500 years. This means: They stopped aging. Why would Frodo look old, then.? He had stopped aging as well, as we are told in FOTR. Or we are saying the same thing, his "growing wisdom", but differently?

Bilbo and Gollum were not actively resisting the Ring's pull on a constant basis. And Gollum had had his years lengthened by his possession of the Ring, but he hardly looked fresh as a daisy by the time Bilbo met him.

[Lotrelf]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Bilbo and Gollum were not actively resisting the Ring's pull on a constant basis. And Gollum had had his years lengthened by his possession of the Ring, but he hardly looked fresh as a daisy by the time Bilbo met him.

You're right, there! Gollum's case is different. He had surpassed the normal age of his life. But Bilbo would look younger than he actually was. He couldn't appear older than his actual appearance. How come Frodo looked older? The Ring played a part is true.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

You're right, there! Gollum's case is different. He had surpassed the normal age of his life. But Bilbo would look younger than he actually was. He couldn't appear older than his actual appearance. How come Frodo looked older? The Ring played a part is true.

Frodo also looked quite young for his age when he left the Shire, but his internal active battle with the Ring wore him down during the course of the few following months probably more than even the physical trials of the journey. I think that is what Zil was referring to.

[Pervinca Took]

It says that Sam sees Frodo (just before he makes the rabbit stew) "as if the chiselling of the shaping years was now revealed in many fine lines that had before been hidden," as if Sam is observing Frodo's 50 years of life as they would really have looked without the Ring, but when he looks again, he says "Too thin and drawn he is. Not right for a hobbit," which seems to indicate that he is looking older because of his ordeal. Also in Mordor Sam observes that his face is "lined and thin." Perhaps in both cases it is due to the strain of the Ring, as it does say "as if" all the years of his life were now revealed in his face, not that they actually were.

[Lotrelf]

Well, I'm back.
okay... Can't this "light" thing be something about Gildor's "blessing" that he gave Frodo on their meeting as Elf-friend? Goldberry also notices this saying "Gleam(?) in your eyes and ring in your voice tell this." Frodo used to have dreams about the Sea. In Crickhollow he had a dream and we are told that such "dreams often troubled him in his sleep." is there a connection? Any thoughts on this?

[Ivriniel]

I've come to conclude that there are two "lines of influence" that the Rings of Power exert over their keepers. Only one has malevolent intent.

One of those lines is that which the Elven Rings exert, which is about the Elves being able to "exist in two worlds at once". Recall Glorfindel confronting the Nine here.

About Frodo, I suspect Gandalf was referring to the influence of the Ring and the Morgal Blade.

But Gandalf's comment about the transparent filled glass seems to imply that, although Frodo was made more transparent at the time at Elrond's, he was not necessarily referring to a wraith/evil outcome. It seems that there was the concurrent 'Elven'/non malevolence implied in Frodo's recovery.