Why didn't Saruman go to the Shire to take the Ring?

[Gordis]

Let us look at Saruman's actions and motives in summer 3018 closer.
What has really happened between the three Istari (Saruman, Radagast and Gandalf)?

Gandalf had been fond of hobbits ever since the Long winter (2758-60), long before Bilbo has found the Ring. He didn't hide his interest from Saruman and

Seeing then that Gandalf thought the Shire worth visiting, Saruman himself visited it, but disguised and in the utmost secrecy, until he had explored and noted all its ways and lands, and thought then he had learned all that there was to know of it. And even when it seemed to him no longer wise nor profitable to go thither, he still had spies and servants that went in or kept an eye upon its borders. For he was still suspicious. He was himself so far fallen that he believed all others of the Council had each their deep and far-reaching policies for their own enhancement, to which all that they did must in some way refer. "Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire" UT

So, in summer 3018 the One Ring is hidden in the Shire. Saruman doesn't know it is there, but is very much aware of Gandalf's interest in this land.

Then Saruman suddenly learns that the nazgul - all nine - have crossed the Anduin and are searching for "the Shire". How did he learn it? Most likely from Radagast - because how otherwise the Brown Wizard, who always stayed as far as possible from politics, got involved in this story? Radagast must have learned from his birds and beasts that his neighbours, the two nazgul of Dol Guldur, set forth, crossed the river, met the other seven and rode north together, asking questions. Radagast did what was his duty: he immediately went to inform Saruman - the head of his order.

Here Saruman most likely put all the loose ends together: Gandalf is interested in the Shire and goes there a lot, the nazgul try to find the Shire, and there is hardly any other errand than the search for the One Ring that would make Sauron send all the Nine to wander across western lands. The last bit can be proven by Saruman's words to the Morgul-Lord:

"It is not a land that you look for," he said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it."- UT

So, finally, before midsummer 3018, Saruman understands that the One is in the Shire, maybe in Gandalf's direct keeping, maybe in the keeping of one of the hobbits under Gandalf's supervision.

Saruman's next move is to invite Gandalf to Orthanc, using the unsuspecting Radagast. Why? Most likely Saruman hopes that Gandalf will come bringing the Ring with him. That's why he orders Radagast to tell Gandalf the news about the nazgul. Would the Grey wizard leave the Ring unprotected?

But that was not what happened. Gandalf came alone without the Ring. And here Saruman's actions do not make much sense, IMO. He took Gandalf out of the picture, imprisoning him in Orthanc. But he did nothing about the Ring. Why didn't he ride like the wind to the Shire himself, to get there before the nazgul?

And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you to take it.

- says Saruman to the nazgul in UT. But he lied. He DID know! Well, maybe he didn't know the name of "Baggins" (likely the nazgul only asked about "the Shire" at first, and started asking about "Baggins" only beyond Sarn Ford), but still, he could have found Bag End easily - as it was the place that his colleague Gandalf was known to visit. A couple of questions, a small amount of charm and persuasion and he would be led to Frodo.
The rangers at the border would have let him pass - wasn't he the head of the White Council? Frodo would have had no suspicions of him - didn't Gandalf speak highly of Saruman? He could have taken the Ring there and then, or carried Frodo to Orthanc - if he had daring enough.

But it seems Saruman hadn't got enough guts for it. He did the silliest thing - removed Gandalf and left the Ring completely unprotected for the nazgul to take. Or, considering that Gandalf had means to transmit the news of danger to the Ringbearer, prior to going to Orthanc, he left the Ringbearer enough time to make his way to Rivendell, where the Ring would be beyond Saruman's grasp.

What was it? Miscalculation? Cowardice?
What do you think?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Possibly Sauron's influence, which might have been greater than even Saruman himself knew. By the time Pippin picked up the palantir, we know it had been some time since Saruman had made a report to Sauron. I suspect this is because after he told Sauron he had Gandalf imprisoned, his own mind was in turmoil, his desire to have the Ring for himself warring with his "loyalty" (more likely fear) of Sauron. Moreover, it was to Sauron's benefit to encourage Saruman to stay put; in Orthanc, he could use the palantir to keep tabs on him and worm his way into his thoughts, exerting control from afar, also providing Sauron with an allied stronghold behind enemy lines, so to speak. Keeping Saruman there and under his influence gave Sauron an advantage he would not have had, if Saruman had never looked into the palantir and been drawn into Sauron's web. He would have been a rival, but one free from any ties to Mordor, which ultimately could have made the situation for the West even worse.

That aside, I think there was a hefty dose of fear involved as well. At the same time that Saruman spoke with the Nazgul at Isengard, it is said that from that meeting, he perceived the full horror of service to Mordor, which nearly made him switch his allegiance back to Gandalf and the West. Once he lost his valuable prisoner (and became angry because of it), he was definitely in a pinch. If he remains in Orthanc and reports in to Sauron, he will certainly face the Dark Lord's wrath for allowing Gandalf to escape (which he likely could not have concealed from him, which would explain why he had not reported for so long). Staying there and keeping silent, he at least retained some semblance of power. But if he leaves -- particularly after he knows the Nine are abroad and searching for the same thing he wants -- he is in danger from both sides, the old and new allies he has betrayed. If he had known exactly where the Ring was and who had it, he might have taken the risk of riding after it, hoping to get it first so that by the time the Nazgul caught up with him, he would be the new Ring Lord -- but that was pretty chancy, since he didn't know more than "in the Shire."

Did that make any sense? Maybe not. Head's still ringing from last night's concert. And a Merry Christmas Eve!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

So, finally, before midsummer 3018, Saruman understands that the One is in the Shire, maybe in Gandalf's direct keeping, maybe in the keeping of one of the hobbits under Gandalf's supervision.

Saruman can't have believed Gandalf possessed the Ring himself. Saruman's considerable knowledge of the Rings of Power would have made it clear to him that if Gandalf or any of the Wise had the One they would not have been able to resist the temptation to use it.
Saruman obviously suspected the Shire had some special importance to Gandalf, but there is evidence that suspicion was all he had. Consider the conversation between Gandalf and Saruman and Orthanc.

I have many eyes in my service, and I believe you know where this precious thing now lies. Is it not so? Or why do the Nine ask for the Shire, and what is your business there?

FOTR p291
Saruman did not know the One was in the Shire, or surely he would have gone there to get it, just as he told the Nazgûl.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Saruman's next move is to invite Gandalf to Orthanc, using the unsuspecting Radagast. Why? Most likely Saruman hopes that Gandalf will come bringing the Ring with him. That's why he orders Radagast to tell Gandalf the news about the nazgul. Would the Grey wizard leave the Ring unprotected?

As evidenced by the previous quote, Saruman's purpose in luring Gandalf to Isengard was to attempt to persuade him to tell the Ring's location, if he knew it.
The first evidence that Saruman had definite knowledge of the One's whereabouts isn't seen until the attack on the Fellowship at Parth Galen. He had to have been aware of their departure from Rivendell with a number of hobbits, and that was likely the deciding factor that gave him surety.

[Gordis]

Thank you for the answers, Ibrin and Inziladun.

I have many eyes in my service, and I believe you know where this precious thing now lies. Is it not so? Or why do the Nine ask for the Shire, and what is your business there?

Strange - I think that this quote proves just the opposite - that Saruman finally guessed (rightly) that the Ring was in the Shire and Gandalf knew about it all along. In UT we learn that Saruman even thought back to a far-away council when they had had a disagreement over smoking and concluded that Gandalf was duping him all along:

Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.
This story appears in half a dozen different manuscripts, and in one of them it is said that Saruman was suspicious, doubting whether he read rightly the purport of Gandalf's gesture with the rings of smoke (above all whether it showed any connexion between the Halflings and the great matter of the Rings of Power, unlikely though that might seem); and doubting that one so great could concern himself with such a people as the Halflings for their own sake merely. -"The Hunt for the Ring."

Of course, he had no exact address where to seek for the Ring - but the nazgul did well without the exact address either. After all, Saruman had spies and "business associates" in the Shire, he had been there himself. He could ask questions and hope to be answered far more readily than any nazgul.

In fact, he could go to the Shire either impersonating Gandalf (Saruman in TT was able to appear quite similar to Gandalf), or as Saruman the White, Gandalf's boss who replaced him in the hour of need: "I am sorry for bearing bad news, Frodo, but our dear friend Gandalf got eaten by wargs / captured by Sauron / drowned in the Anduin. I come in his stead, o worthy hobbit, to help you with your burden. The Nine are hunting for you. Trust me - I will take you to safety." Even Aragorn might have bought this story, let alone Frodo!


Imprisoning Gandalf was a smart move. But it had to have a follow-up: Saruman had to go to the Shire himself. I think he didn't do it partly because of the reasons given by Ibrin, partly because he wasn't sure of the address, but mostly because he didn't have enough guts for a wannabe Dark Lord.

Sauron, for instance, knew how to risk his life when the prize was big enough: he stayed long among the Noldor of Eregion, his old enemies, he went to Numenor as a prisoner. Saruman, in contrast, was essentially a coward.

[Alfirin]

I think that the main reason Saruman did not immeditely go running to the shire was in its own way becuse he had made a great error in dealing with the WK, not so much in what he had kept hidden, but in what he hadn't. He had lied to the WK and he had no way of knowing how long it would be before the lie was exposed. More importantly he had (possibly inadvertently) said so fairly damming things to the WK, namely 1. that he knew what the WK was after and more importantly that, given the opportuntity, he would no hestitie to claim this item for himself. Given the fact that the WK is basically Sauron's right hand man, (in the absence of a new ringlord) and anything said to him is more or less guarneteed to wind up being reported to Sauron, this is a very foolish thing to say. The moment the message is recived by Sauron, Saruman will be kept under immediate and total survallaince, if he is allowed to remain free at all. With Gandalf gone Saruman is in even hotter water. I think that he assumes the following-

The moment the WK left he would have had suspisions as to Saruman's loyalty, the WK would then have posted some sort of spies, even possibly allowing one or two of the lesser riders to peel off and keep an eye on Saruman in secret. The moment Saruman made a move, the message would have gotten to the WK, at which point ALL the Nazgul would be hot on Saruman's trail, assuming that where he went the ring was. Saruman's only hope (and likely plan) was to wait until such time as the ring wraiths were, in thier searches all sufficiently far away from both him and the shire (given how small the shire was, it would be likey that without a good lead, the WK would miss it) that he could safely get to the shire before the Nazgul could catch up.

Once there he would indeed have had little trouble finding Frodo or convincing him, The most likey story would have been as follows. Saruman arrives at Bag End (or if a little later meets the party on the road) and tells Frodo that due to pressing matters Gandalf is going to be delayed (as he said he might be) but that the matter the Ring was so important to Gandalf that he came and begged Saruman, who as head of the order of wizards was the greatest of the all, to come in the interim, to protect Frodo in his stead, and that He realizaing the great need, had consented. Alternitvely, he could have simply disgused himself as Gandalf, as It is doubtful that anyone he met would be able to see through the disguise.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I think that the main reason Saruman did not immeditely go running to the shire was in its own way becuse he had made a great error in dealing with the WK, not so much in what he had kept hidden, but in what he hadn't. He had lied to the WK and he had no way of knowing how long it would be before the lie was exposed. More importantly he had (possibly inadvertently) said so fairly damming things to the WK, namely 1. that he knew what the WK was after and more importantly that, given the opportuntity, he would no hestitie to claim this item for himself. Given the fact that the WK is basically Sauron's right hand man, (in the absence of a new ringlord) and anything said to him is more or less guarneteed to wind up being reported to Sauron, this is a very foolish thing to say. The moment the message is recived by Sauron, Saruman will be kept under immediate and total survallaince, if he is allowed to remain free at all. With Gandalf gone Saruman is in even hotter water. I think that he assumes the following-

The moment the WK left he would have had suspisions as to Saruman's loyalty, the WK would then have posted some sort of spies, even possibly allowing one or two of the lesser riders to peel off and keep an eye on Saruman in secret. The moment Saruman made a move, the message would have gotten to the WK, at which point ALL the Nazgul would be hot on Saruman's trail, assuming that where he went the ring was. Saruman's only hope (and likely plan) was to wait until such time as the ring wraiths were, in thier searches all sufficiently far away from both him and the shire (given how small the shire was, it would be likey that without a good lead, the WK would miss it) that he could safely get to the shire before the Nazgul could catch up.

Saruman was not too smart in his talk with the WK, that's for sure. Excellent analysis of the situation, Alfirin. Only it is the September 3018 situation, not the earlier, summer situation I was speaking about.

Saruman had talked with the WK in the early hours on September 18, at the same time when Gandalf escaped from Orthanc. After that, indeed, it would have been foolish to go to the Shire - too late.

Before that Saruman had two months free - at this time Gandalf was biting his nails atop Saruman's Tower, and the nazgul were off on the sightseeing trip up the Vales of Anduin, likely all the way to Gundabad, because Sauron had mistakenly sent them there. The road to the Shire was free. Saruman could go there and return with the Ring in two weeks.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Once there he would indeed have had little trouble finding Frodo or convincing him, The most likey story would have been as follows. Saruman arrives at Bag End (or if a little later meets the party on the road) and tells Frodo that due to pressing matters Gandalf is going to be delayed (as he said he might be) but that the matter the Ring was so important to Gandalf that he came and begged Saruman, who as head of the order of wizards was the greatest of the all, to come in the interim, to protect Frodo in his stead, and that He realizaing the great need, had consented. Alternitvely, he could have simply disgused himself as Gandalf, as It is doubtful that anyone he met would be able to see through the disguise.

Ahh - we have cross-posted. Great minds think alike

[HerenIstarion]

Most likely Saruman hopes that Gandalf will come bringing the Ring with him

Seems to me you've answered your own question well enough putting forth quote as above

Another reason may have been psychology - Saruman has grown used to being the Lord of Orthank with all the benefits and comforts it brought along, being even afraid to an extent of venturing abroad alone (as opposed to Gandalf who's wandering about on his own most of the time). (cf. his heavy stress on 'destruction of his home' encountering the returning Lords of the West in Hollin and also remark made in conversation in Flotsam and Jetsam I believe about faded wizardry of Saruman's who has to rely on 'wheels and chains and slaves' now)

It seems the mark of all beings going evil that they exhibit less courage the more evil they become (cf. Morgoth and his self-imposed confinement towards the end) and less will/capacity to independent action - you can tell the one has started going rotten as soon as they start to lean towards Denethor's wisdom (good captain sitting back sending forth his inferiors)

[Boromir88]

Alfirin's analysis is a thing of beauty, and I will rep you for that post, when I can.

I guess to answer why Saruman hadn't acted before the WK arrived - now keep in mind this is my own rambling speculations - I have nothing as far as "proof."

I think we should keep in mind that dangerous game Saruman was playing. He was not only deceiving Gandalf, and the rest of the Wise, into trusting him, but he was also trying to deceive Sauron. Saruman wanted to be the Ring Lord himself, he had to not only appeal to Sauron, but keep the trust of the "Wise." And when Elrond, hears of Saruman's betrayal, he is completely shocked (as was Gandalf).

As Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond, even the greatest spiders leave a "weak thread," and Sarumans lies begin to unravel. When he's caught, he's got himself stuck in a vice; Gandalf comes after him to expel him from the Order and the Council, Sauron is after the presumed Hobbit that he captured.

So, for Saruman, he was playing such a dangerous game, he had to keep up the act as long as possible. As Grishnakh says Sauron knows Saruman is "treacherous" and "the Eye is on him." (The Uruk-hai). My guess is Sauron had his eye on Saruman from the very beginning. Saruman might have thought he was keeping his true intent hidden, and Sauron might not have figured it out until later, but he definitely had Saruman under surveillance from the get go.

Remember, that it was Saruman who is credited for driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur, and it is Saruman who did it to prevent Sauron from searching The Gladden Fields. This wasn't a loyal, trusting friendship, and I very highly doubt Sauron and Saruman went to counseling together to work our their past.

Long story short, Saruman wanted to keep the Ring away from Sauron, just as much as he wanted it for himself. Had he gone racing off for the Ring when he first got news of where it probably was, this would have certainly tipped Sauron off sooner. On where the Ring was, and also Saruman's own treachery. Not only that, but the good guys would have learned about Saruman's betrayal a lot sooner than they did, when Gandalf spilled the beans (what a tattle tale! ). In a way, Saruman handcuffed himself, by the way he decided to play the game.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In a way, Saruman handcuffed himself, by the way he decided to play the game.

His plan was maybe not that bad, but he was not subtle enough to adapt to the changing situation, make quick decisions and carry them out.

For instance, HerenIstarion agrees with me that Saruman may have hoped that Gandalf will come to Orthanc bringing the Ring. Yes, but then, when Gandalf came without the Ring, - why didn't Saruman change his plans accordingly?
Read again the beginning of their memorable conversation:

"So you have come, Gandalf," he said to me gravely; but in his eyes there seemed to be a white light, as if a cold laughter was in his heart.
`"Yes, I have come," I said. "I have come for your aid, Saruman the White." And that title seemed to anger him.
"Have you indeed, Gandalf the Grey! " he scoffed. "For aid? It has seldom been heard of that Gandalf the Grey sought for aid, one so cunning and so wise, wandering about the lands, and concerning himself in every business, whether it belongs to him or not."
I looked at him and wondered. "But if I am not deceived," said I, "things are now moving which will require the union of all our strength."

Does Saruman seem a clever guy here? Gandalf calls him "the White" - and look at it, the mighty Saruman gets angry and spills out everything, revealing his own treachery before the White Council. Had he more patience and cunning, Saruman, pretending to support Gandalf, could have learned the location of the Ring and devised some plan to seize it.

Same problem he had in the talk with the Morgul Lord. It seems the Nazgul was not too polite in his "challenge and demands": we know he didn't bow and didn't call Saruman "lord". And look at it - mighty Saruman gets miffed and again tells much more than he should have, trying to impress the nazgul.

Same problem at the parley in LOTR. Saruman tries to charm Theoden and for a time it seems that he might succeed. Gimli intervenes, then Eomer. Saruman rebukes both angrily, dissipating the effect of his main spell.

Yes, psychology is quite important. Even when Saruman tries to do what he does best: tries to persuade somebody, he fails, because he has grown too sure of himself, too proud and easily offended. And when offended, he looses his temper and makes mistakes.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Does Saruman seem a clever guy here?

Humorously, this is just another example of Tolkien's 'wise' not being very wise, or perhaps merely lacking common sense. Inexplicably throughout Tolkien's mythos, those he accounts 'wise' make bad decisions, misjudge their foes, and basically display serious woodenheadedness. I'd cite several hundred examples, but I believe everyone gets the gist of what I'm saying.

Oftentimes, the simple Hobbits display more common sense than the educated elite. I suppose that is just a reflection of how things usually are in a real-world sense.

[littlemanpoet]

As with Saruman and so many others, the wise succumb to pride while the humble do what must be done. It's Saruman's pride that is his undoing. 'Pride goes before a fall'.

[Gordis]

Well - it is certainly true generally, but take Sauron in the Second Age. I guess the guy was always full of pride, but still he was clever enough to play his role of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, to perfection. When Galadriel scorned him to his face, he only smiled humbly... the charmer.

I highly doubt Saruman could have succeeded in a similar situation. He was not of the right character for the role.

[littlemanpoet]

I can think of two reasons for the differences between Sauron and Saruman.

1) Sauron was a greater Ainu and was therefore more powerful in his skills, spells, and personal presence.

2) Sauron fell early and had long ages of being wholly evil. Saruman had been good until perhaps the last 500 years of the Third Age; also, Tolkien depicts him at his "unstaffing" and at his death, as being at war with himself. When there's a civil war in any nation, that nation is far weaker than when unified. The same goes for people.

However, one can distinguish between the listeners of the two. Who was taken in by Sauron, and who not? Same question for Saruman?

One might suspect that Frodo would have been taken in by Saruman at the beginning, but he grew so much that he could see through Saruman in the end. The Eorlingas of Rohan were snowed by him. Theoden had to fight with a will to get his mind cleared enough to speak past the subtle lies, even in the face of recent events! Gimli is not fooled, which I find interesting and very satisfying.

The Numenoreans were tending towards evil anyway, so it is no great surprise that they believed Sauron's lies. It is interesting however that the Elves of Eregion either could not, or refused to, see through his deceptions until it was too late; what does that say of them, as opposed to what it tells us of Sauron?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The Numenoreans were tending towards evil anyway, so it is no great surprise that they believed Sauron's lies. It is interesting however that the Elves of Eregion either could not, or refused to, see through his deceptions until it was too late; what does that say of them, as opposed to what it tells us of Sauron?

As Noldor, the Elves of Eregion were always more interested in the making of things, artifacts of power and so forth, than others of their kind. Sauron had a great deal of knowledge regarding such matters, and that alone was probably too attractive to many of them for them to turn Sauron away.
He also appealed to their desire for healing and the slowing of decay or change.
Being blinded by these 'character flaws', they didn't see Sauron's true nature and designs until he put on the One.
What this tells us of Sauron we already knew: he was an extremely cunning tactician well able to take advantage of an enemy's weaknesses.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I was not around when this discussion had started at first, but I have thought about this problem a bit and so, I will throw what I think about it into place.

First, I believe there is lot of truth on what various people have said here, but after looking at it from all angles, there was not yet a complex answer put forth. But first, let me reply to just a few things on this thread which are of the less important nature, before I move to the main topic itself:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Another reason may have been psychology - Saruman has grown used to being the Lord of Orthank with all the benefits and comforts it brought along, being even afraid to an extent of venturing abroad alone (as opposed to Gandalf who's wandering about on his own most of the time). (cf. his heavy stress on 'destruction of his home' encountering the returning Lords of the West in Hollin and also remark made in conversation in Flotsam and Jetsam I believe about faded wizardry of Saruman's who has to rely on 'wheels and chains and slaves' now)

All right, just setting one thing right. Saruman actually was traveling a lot, he visited the Shire often before Gandalf started to suspect him and before the Rangers started to guard the Shire a bit more closely. In UT, the Istari - we read about Saruman visiting the Shire in disguise, secretly, however the hobbits noticed him mistook him for Gandalf. (That is also interesting thing to consider with these theories of how could Saruman impersonate Gandalf in the eyes of the Hobbits that were mentioned here, but I am not going to go deeper into that now.) We also read there (which is highly important for this discussion) that Saruman for long time suspected that Gandalf had some interest in the Shire besides just going there to chat with hobbits, however he did know what ("just of what use can these simpletons be? There must be something!"), and that was even at the time when Gandalf himself yet did not have any idea and he really had Shire just as a place to chat and rest. But the fact that Gandalf used to visit the Shire is also why Saruman started to put his spies there in the first place.

Another note, again, not very important for the main topic itself:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Remember, that it was Saruman who is credited for driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur, and it is Saruman who did it to prevent Sauron from searching The Gladden Fields. This wasn't a loyal, trusting friendship, and I very highly doubt Sauron and Saruman went to counseling together to work our their past.

But Sauron and Saruman actually had no real friendship like that when Saruman prevented Sauron from searching the Gladden Fields. Sauron & Saruman got into contact only around 3000 TA, when Saruman dared to use the Palantír. So, their "friendship" started only after all these events, and Sauron entered this relationship with the knowledge of all what Saruman did before - from all he did on behalf of the White Council to all he did just for his own search for the Ring. Of course Sauron was probably clever enough not to trust Saruman completely, but generally speaking, he could have trusted "all right, I believe you have cast aside all your previous allegiances to the Free Peoples, or your personal interests, and are working just for me now." That is the basic way it was, I believe.

And one more slight correction:

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I think that the main reason Saruman did not immeditely go running to the shire was in its own way becuse he had made a great error in dealing with the WK, not so much in what he had kept hidden, but in what he hadn't. He had lied to the WK and he had no way of knowing how long it would be before the lie was exposed. More importantly he had (possibly inadvertently) said so fairly damming things to the WK, namely 1. that he knew what the WK was after and more importantly that, given the opportuntity, he would no hestitie to claim this item for himself.

I don't believe Saruman said anything THAT suspicious. Certainly, he was not very careful in giving the information to the WK, although he tried hard to both NOT to tell everything to the WK (in hope to delay him yet), but at the same time to keep the mask of the loyal servant, so that the Nazgul won't report to their master that "this Saruman guy's loyalty does not seem as true, Master". (It's another thing, and not Saruman's fault, as we read from the Hunt for the Ring - at least taking into account just the dialogue with the Nazgul itself, Saruman made no real mistake there.) The main thing is: the WK did NOT suspect Saruman after talking to him by the Gate (as you can read), thus, even the fact that Saruman said "if I had it, you would call me Master" etc. had not in any way struck the WK. And this is what I mean to say: Why should it? I don't really see anything suspicous on that. Saruman was merely stating the FACTS. The WK indeed WOULD have bowed to Saruman, had he had the Ring. It was not meant to say: "If I had it, I will make you call me master", I believe it was simply meaning: "If I had it, IT will force you to call me master". Obviously. Saruman was a Maia, and merely having the Ring would make him a tremendous presence.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I think that the main reason Saruman did not immeditely go running to the shire was in its own way becuse he had made a great error in dealing with the WK, not so much in what he had kept hidden, but in what he hadn't. He had lied to the WK and he had no way of knowing how long it would be before the lie was exposed.

(...)

The moment the WK left he would have had suspisions as to Saruman's loyalty, the WK would then have posted some sort of spies, even possibly allowing one or two of the lesser riders to peel off and keep an eye on Saruman in secret. The moment Saruman made a move, the message would have gotten to the WK, at which point ALL the Nazgul would be hot on Saruman's trail, assuming that where he went the ring was. Saruman's only hope (and likely plan) was to wait until such time as the ring wraiths were, in thier searches all sufficiently far away from both him and the shire (given how small the shire was, it would be likey that without a good lead, the WK would miss it) that he could safely get to the shire before the Nazgul could catch up.

Okay, this, for the most part, makes sense. And this is where I would start: this is the reason why Saruman did not go after the Ring AFTER the Ringwraith came to Isengard. Saruman probably believed that his lie would hold (foolish one, but that would go with the logic of the powerful being always foolish in M-E), and I won't think the WK would watch out for Saruman that much, after all, as soon as he learned about Saruman's not-full loyalty (from that traveling Southerner, or Gríma, or whichever version we take as the "real" one) and at the same time he learned about where exactly the Shire is (from the same person). Mainly, I can't imagine him sending even one or two Nazgul to bother looking for Saruman, he wanted to get Baggins as soon as possible, and he did not have as many men (or wraiths) to spare.

More importantly. Once the Nine left Isengard, Saruman could not hope much in reaching the Ring earlier than them. We read on many places how fast the Nine's steeds were (I believe there is something like that about Asfaloth, that not even the Nine can match his speed? Or certainly Shadowfax). That means, I don't think Saruman could have sent a messenger to his Shire agents (like Sackville-Bagginses [sic!]) who would reach it earlier than the Nine (who have already set out by the time Saruman could have instructed and sent anyone).

In any case, even with Saruman's messenger, there was this risk of him being intercepted by the Riders: he certainly could not send anybody out right after the Riders went. And mainly, he had other problems by that time - Gandalf had escaped, and what to do now...

(I believe Saruman might have - and likely did, as he would have liked to get at least some information, or have the chance to intercept the Ring himself - sent somebody later; indeed, it is well possible - and Gandalf, or was it Aragorn? thought that too - that this Southerner in Bree might have been in Saruman's service, or at least double-dealing with both the Riders and Saruman. But that was only later on, many days passed between the Riders coming to Isengard and the moment when the Hobbits came to Bree.)

Anyway - that was about why did not Saruman do anything AFTER the Riders came. But what about the time since Saruman imprisoned Gandalf till the time when they came?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think we should keep in mind that dangerous game Saruman was playing. He was not only deceiving Gandalf, and the rest of the Wise, into trusting him, but he was also trying to deceive Sauron. Saruman wanted to be the Ring Lord himself, he had to not only appeal to Sauron, but keep the trust of the "Wise." And when Elrond, hears of Saruman's betrayal, he is completely shocked (as was Gandalf).

Now this is one, and in my point of view the most important point. Saruman was trying, to the very last moment, to "wear the mask of friendship, until he was ready". Had it not been for Gandalf escaping, Elrond would have had no real idea that Saruman is a traitor; the less any of the others, who learned that only on the Council, because of Gandalf. (I just recalled Ibri's short story "Renascence", where this problematic is captured pretty well: Varda tells there to Gandalf that had he voiced any suspicions on Saruman earlier, many would not have believed him. This is exactly what would happen, I think, even in the best case, if Elrond started to suspect Saruman: without an "eye-witness" like Gandalf was, many would be reluctant to accept Saruman's treachery as fact. Imagine some Galdor from the Havens, who seemed to value Saruman a lot as an authority. Similarly, even in Rohan, thanks to Wormtongue, Saruman could have worked secretly and looked like an ally for a long time.)

And Saruman was trying to look like a friend to both sides. So, with Gandalf locked up, and presuming that Sauron does not know where exactly to look (his Nine were apparently searching in Anduin Vales, still far enough). Saruman was angry, like it was said here, he could not control his lust, which had kind of ruined a good chance for him to learn about the Ring's whereabouts, or he underestimated Gandalf, thinking him a fool who would give away the information, or betray the Free Peoples. But still, he could hope that Gandalf will break and tell him before the Riders find the Ring. Of course, it was playing with time, so Saruman did very likely mobilise his agents around the Shire. However, it was not as easy: the Shire had been protected by the Rangers for a long time and Saruman's agents could not come and go as freely as they used to in years long past.

And as the last, the reason for Saruman not to go for the Ring before imprisioning Gandalf: it has been, I believe, sort of solved before on this thread. Saruman really did not know where the Ring is, and when trying to keep the face of an ally, he did the best thing he could - invite and imprison Gandalf, it was really I believe the most clever way he could. He heard (as Radagast told to Gandalf) that the Riders are out and asking about the land of "the Shire". This is, I believe, the first time Saruman ever thought of the Shire in connection to the Ring. You can imagine him: "What? The NINE??? Asking for the SHIRE? Wait - oh NO! WHAT AND IDIOT I WAS!" - and he immediately came up with a plan, and called Radagast to bring Gandalf...

[BGreg]

Yeah, I think you pretty much covered the answer with that

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by BGreg

Yeah, I think you pretty much covered the answer with that

You have never seen my first post ever, have you (No, it was shorter... but it was the first... )

[Gordis]

Great that you have found time to participate in the discussion, Legate.
First my comments on the minor points from the beginning of your post

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

]Of course Sauron was probably clever enough not to trust Saruman completely, but generally speaking, he could have trusted "all right, I believe you have cast aside all your previous allegiances to the Free Peoples, or your personal interests, and are working just for me now." That is the basic way it was, I believe.

I think it was in Sauron's nature not to trust anyone completely, and if he had no choice but to trust somebody, then he trusted the nazgul, just because he virtually had their very souls in his hands (via the Nine Rings he held).

With Saruman he had nothing of this kind of safety precautions. I think Sauron realized that Saruman, given the opportunity, would definitely try to grab the Ring. But then again, Sauron was sure that ANYONE would desire to do the same: the Wise, Elves, Men, Orcs, Trolls - no one could be trusted in this matter. So Sauron couldn't really hold Saruman's lust for the Ring against him. It was simply unavoidable.

Perhaps the Witch-King reasoned this way as well, thus he was not shocked when Saruman said: "And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you to take it." It was the most damning thing of what he said, but it simply proved his desire for the Ring, which was a given anyway.

Another thing was to learn that Saruman had acted upon his desire, fooling Sauron about the location of the Shire. It was damning, but it also had to be expected.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

]The main thing is: the WK did NOT suspect Saruman after talking to him by the Gate (as you can read), thus, even the fact that Saruman said "if I had it, you would call me Master" etc. had not in any way struck the WK. And this is what I mean to say: Why should it? I don't really see anything suspicous on that. Saruman was merely stating the FACTS. The WK indeed WOULD have bowed to Saruman, had he had the Ring. It was not meant to say: "If I had it, I will make you call me master", I believe it was simply meaning: "If I had it, IT will force you to call me master". Obviously. Saruman was a Maia, and merely having the Ring would make him a tremendous presence.

Actually, Saruman said " for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord." Lord, not Master, which I think is different. Perhaps it only meant "you would show me more respect than you do now".

But if "Lord" in this sentence indeed equals "Master", it becomes even more interesting. We know from Letter #246, that even with the One Ring, Saruman wouldn't become the Master of the Nazgul, because they were fully subservient to the Nine Rings which Sauron held, not the One. Sauron would always have primary control over the nazgul, while Saruman would only have secondary control.
The question is: did Saruman realize it? Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps he had no idea about Sauron's safety precautions regarding the Nine and deluded into thinking that getting the One would bring the nazgul to his side?

There is another piece of evidence that would confirm this theory. Gandalf said at the Council: " The Nine the Nazgûl keep" (the quote that gives everyone a lot of headache when the Nine Rings are discussed, as it contradicts all the other quotes). Now, most of Gandalf's information on the Ring-lore came from Saruman. Perhaps Gandal's words at the Council reflected Saruman's own mistake?

Then the conversation at the Gates becomes somewhat funny. Saruman tries to impress the nazgul and, due to his magic Voice, almost succeeds. The nazgul depart somewhat dazed. Then half a mile away, the WK asks "Do you recall, Khamul, what did the wizard say? Didn't he mention he wanted to get the Ring and become our Master?"
"I think so, milord"
"He-he, the old white fool can always hope…" General laugh.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

]I won't think the WK would watch out for Saruman that much, after all, as soon as he learned about Saruman's not-full loyalty (from that traveling Southerner, or Gríma, or whichever version we take as the "real" one) and at the same time he learned about where exactly the Shire is (from the same person). Mainly, I can't imagine him sending even one or two Nazgul to bother looking for Saruman, he wanted to get Baggins as soon as possible, and he did not have as many men (or wraiths) to spare.

Then the nazgul knew that Saruman was being watched by Sauron via the Palantir. Also don't forget, immediately after the nazgul left the Gates, Saruman sent out his wolves, to prevent the nazgul from lingering nearby.

Yet, I think the WK's decision to personally guard the Greenway - the approaches to Bree from the direction of Isengard - was partly caused by his knowledge of Saruman's betrayal. Saruman could have come in person after all - or release Gandalf (which is almost what had happened) or even make peace with him. In the latter case, the two Maiar could have come together to fight the nazgul. That would have been hard to counter.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

]Anyway - that was about why did not Saruman do anything AFTER the Riders came. But what about the time since Saruman imprisoned Gandalf till the time when they came?

Saruman was trying, to the very last moment, to "wear the mask of friendship, until he was ready". Had it not been for Gandalf escaping, Elrond would have had no real idea that Saruman is a traitor; the less any of the others, who learned that only on the Council, because of Gandalf.

Still I don't see how coming to the Shire, leaving Gandalf locked up in a stout cell, or even better killed, could reveal Saruman's treachery to the Wise. Radagast told him that the Nazgul were searching for the Shire. Saruman proposed his help to Gandalf and invited him to Orthanc. But the Grey never came - perished on the way most likely - so Saruman really had no other option than to go to the Shire himself. Had he failed to find the Ring, that would be a story to tell to the White Council. And to Sauron he could tell that he was seeking the One to bring it to him. That would be needed in the case of failure. But if he succeeded, he would need to tell no tales to anyone, only give orders. Or so he must have thought.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think it was in Sauron's nature not to trust anyone completely, and if he had no choice but to trust somebody, then he trusted the nazgul, just because he virtually had their very souls in his hands (via the Nine Rings he held).

Indeed, of course he did not and I am aware of it all the time. It is just as you say:

I think Sauron realized that Saruman, given the opportunity, would definitely try to grab the Ring. But then again, Sauron was sure that ANYONE would desire to do the same: the Wise, Elves, Men, Orcs, Trolls - no one could be trusted in this matter. So Sauron couldn't really hold Saruman's lust for the Ring against him. It was simply unavoidable.

But still, there was this "for the time being, I trust you" thing. Simply, an alliance between the two of them, the "trust" for the time being, as long as they are useful for each other.

But in any case, I still do not believe that Saruman said anything awkward by the gate. He was maybe exaggerating, or simplifying things, it was, from my point of view, rather a "metaphorical figure" from him. Simply put: I do not believe Saruman meant to say anything, not even that he slipped anything about his real intentions with the Ring; and at the same time, I do not believe that the WK ever thought of it as something like that. Simply, a normal dialogue.

And that would also explain the seemingly illogical thing about the Ringwraith calling him "Lord", even though they still should not obey him even if he had the Ring: it was all just a figure of speech, an exaggeration, a way to (as I read it!) emphasise the point: "No, as of course you must realise yourselves, I don't have it" - and that, between the lines, also points to that of course I have no idea at all where it may be! A very clever way to put it to the listener, like saying: "If you think I have it, you must disbelieve your own senses! What do your feelings say? Nothing? So you see for yourselves, with your own innermost evidence which cannot be fooled, that I have nothing in common with the Ring at all. I am an innocent dove, never even heard about any Ring, la-la-laa..."

Then the conversation at the Gates becomes somewhat funny. Saruman tries to impress the nazgul and, due to his magic Voice, almost succeeds. The nazgul depart somewhat dazed. Then half a mile away, the WK asks "Do you recall, Khamul, what did the wizard say? Didn't he mention he wanted to get the Ring and become our Master?"
"I think so, milord"
"He-he, the old white fool can always hope…" General laugh.

But nay, I really don't think Saruman only "almost" succeeded. I believe he succeeded, at least for the time being; maybe upon returning to Sauron, the guy might have started to think "ha, I knew it - he is already cheating me"; but until the Nazgul learned that Saruman lied to them from that traveling agent, they really believed, in my opinion, that Saruman is a loyal ally - at least as loyal as the bad guys are to each other.

Yet, I think the WK's decision to personally guard the Greenway - the approaches to Bree from the direction of Isengard - was partly caused by his knowledge of Saruman's betrayal. Saruman could have come in person after all - or release Gandalf (which is almost what had happened) or even make peace with him. In the latter case, the two Maiar could have come together to fight the nazgul. That would have been hard to counter.

Yes, I believe so too. (That was a result of WK learning of Saruman's treachery from that agent.)

Still I don't see how coming to the Shire, leaving Gandalf locked up in a stout cell, or even better killed, could reveal Saruman's treachery to the Wise. Radagast told him that the Nazgul were searching for the Shire. Saruman proposed his help to Gandalf and invited him to Orthanc. But the Grey never came - perished on the way most likely - so Saruman really had no other option than to go to the Shire himself. Had he failed to find the Ring, that would be a story to tell to the White Council. And to Sauron he could tell that he was seeking the One to bring it to him. That would be needed in the case of failure. But if he succeeded, he would need to tell no tales to anyone, only give orders. Or so he must have thought.

I see the main problem in Saruman personally leaving Orthanc for such a long trip. And there were too many risks involved. Saruman, had it not been for the encounter of the Ringwraith with that servant of his, would have remained looking like the loyal servant who has no idea where the Shire is. Surely Sauron would not have believed him that he was looking for the Ring for Sauron. Maybe if Saruman got a direct order from Sauron to look for the Ring, but that was the Nine's job. And in this virtual scenario, if Saruman "learned" from Gandalf where the Ring is, he should have immediately reported that to the Palantír, before leaving on his own. So, at least when it comes to telling Sauron, no real excuse for him. And with the Free Peoples, he could surely get suspected. After all, Gandalf surely won't just disappear along the road - that would be awkward by itself (unless he met the Nine themselves). Then, at least some people would know that Gandalf headed to Isengard - now how comes he disappeared just on this particular way? And what more (and mainly), how did Saruman know where to look for the Ring, when Gandalf never arrived to Orthanc at all? Where did Saruman learn about "the Shire", or even about "Baggins" having anything to do with the Ring? No, really, that won't work. (And at least for Galadriel, Saruman would be definitely unmasked at this moment - she never trusted him.)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But still, there was this "for the time being, I trust you" thing. Simply, an alliance between the two of them, the "trust" for the time being, as long as they are useful for each other.

Indeed. Sauron trusted Saruman to bind the Rohan army, preventing it from helping Gondor, he trusted him to spy on the Wise etc. But I think Sauron realized that this alliance would not hold if the Ring were in the balance. That's why he wasn't really angry at Saruman at the end of 3018, when he finally learned of his treachery from the nazgul upon their return. Or at least he decided to keep quiet about it, still upholding the useful alliance as long as it suited him.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But in any case, I still do not believe that Saruman said anything awkward by the gate. He was maybe exaggerating, or simplifying things, it was, from my point of view, rather a "metaphorical figure" from him. Simply put: I do not believe Saruman meant to say anything, not even that he slipped anything about his real intentions with the Ring; and at the same time, I do not believe that the WK ever thought of it as something like that. Simply, a normal dialogue.

I have to disagree. Saruman should have realized, that even if at the moment his Voice™ worked with the nazgull, later, if something slipped, his "innocent" words (uttered in front of Nine witnesses) would be remembered and used as evidence against him. And it was exactly what happened later. It was a pretty dangerous path he was threading.

On a tangent, the more I think about this Isengard scene, the less "normal" it seems to me.

First of all: why did Sauron send the Nine to Saruman if he was supposed to have direct contact with him via the Palantir? Sauron believed that Saruman knew the location of the Shire, so why not ask the Wizard directly? The explanation must be that by September 3018 Saruman had not used the Palantir for a long time. It seems that, after his failure to turn Gandalf to his side, he sat there in fear and doubt and more and more became inclined to drop everything, and to repent. That's why maybe he didn't go to the Shire. He almost repented, when the nazgul actually came (UT), but it was too late, Gandalf was gone.

Second. OK Sauron sends his most trusted servants to his faithful ally Saruman. Instead of showing warm welcome: blowing trumpets, sending forth uruks with flowers etc., Saruman churlishly keeps the Nine at the gates and uses the intercom. Well, maybe the nazgul themselves were not so looking forward to feather beds of Isengard, but their horses certainly could use some good fodder and grooming. Such a rude reception was really unseemly when dealing with the most high-ranking Mordor officials. - Again, I think it reflected Saruman's current state of mind: he most regretted his hasty alliance with Mordor, hoped for reconciliation with Gandalf and didn't want to broadcast his alliance with Mordor before the eyes of Gandalf.

Third. Why did Saruman started speaking about the Ring at all? Nobody asked him about it, only about the Shire. Why reveal his knowledge of the connection? The wish to impress the nazgul with his wisdom seems a bit childish. Perhaps his words (the first part of the conversation in The Hunt version C) were meant more for Gandalf than for the WK? The message to the Grey wizard would be "see I know where the Ring is, I know where the Shire is, but I tell the nazgul nothing. I can still be trusted."

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I see the main problem in Saruman personally leaving Orthanc for such a long trip. And there were too many risks involved. [...]
And with the Free Peoples, he could surely get suspected. After all, Gandalf surely won't just disappear along the road - that would be awkward by itself (unless he met the Nine themselves). Then, at least some people would know that Gandalf headed to Isengard - now how comes he disappeared just on this particular way? And what more (and mainly), how did Saruman know where to look for the Ring, when Gandalf never arrived to Orthanc at all? Where did Saruman learn about "the Shire", or even about "Baggins" having anything to do with the Ring? No, really, that won't work. (And at least for Galadriel, Saruman would be definitely unmasked at this moment - she never trusted him.)

Perhaps you are right. It was a huge risk - and Saruman was too chicken-hearted to take it.

Moreover, there was another factor, not yet discussed in this thread - Faramir's and Boromir's dream.

[Saruman] believed also (knowing of the oracular dream-words and of Boromir's mission) that the Ring had gone and was already on the way on Rivendell. UT, Hunt for the Ring, version C

Now the oracular dream made it clear that the Ring would eventually find its way to Rivendell:
Saruman was a Maia, he had an inside knowledge of the Music, he knew who had likely sent the dream. Saruman had reasons to believe that whatever he may do, he would be unable to change what had been ordained. So-why even try?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Indeed. Sauron trusted Saruman to bind the Rohan army, preventing it from helping Gondor, he trusted him to spy on the Wise etc. But I think Sauron realized that this alliance would not hold if the Ring were in the balance. That's why he wasn't really angry at Saruman at the end of 3018, when he finally learned of his treachery from the nazgul upon their return. Or at least he decided to keep quiet about it, still upholding the useful alliance as long as it suited him.

Yes, truly. And still, it was so that it could have been Sauron's turn now to "pretend", i.e. he could make Saruman think that he doesn't know about his treachery, which could have helped him, too. The Uruk-hai and the Palantír solved it for Sauron: it is funny, now thinking of it, that Saruman most likely had no contact with Sauron since the Nazgul came to Isengard; and their servants last contacted under captains Uglúk and Grishnákh.

I have to disagree. Saruman should have realized, that even if at the moment his Voice™ worked with the nazgull, later, if something slipped, his "innocent" words (uttered in front of Nine witnesses) would be remembered and used as evidence against him. And it was exactly what happened later. It was a pretty dangerous path he was threading.

Well, we really differ on that one, because I really think his words were completely innocent and there was nothing suspicious about them at all, neither when the Voice was in effect, nor later. However, another thing is, that he says these "Lord" things and "I know what you seek" only in version A, where the Nazgul are coming already with a bit of hostile attitude and Sauron at least no longer trusts (or rather "trusts" - maybe I should say: tolerates) Saruman as much.

First of all: why did Sauron send the Nine to Saruman if he was supposed to have direct contact with him via the Palantir? Sauron believed that Saruman knew the location of the Shire, so why not ask the Wizard directly? The explanation must be that by September 3018 Saruman had not used the Palantir for a long time.

Yes, indeed, and at least in the UT it seems that he didn't use the Palantír for a long time, or at least not since he imprisoned Gandalf. On the other hand, in the version A at least it says that Sauron learned that Saruman imprisoned Gandalf; now I would like to know, how, since nobody else knew? (No Radagast, not even Elrond or Galadriel.) The only possibility is that Saruman told Sauron himself - via Palantír (or he did not tell him, but Sauron could somehow guess that from his words, "read his mind" - again, it says in the UT that in the late times, he used to do that). But from A it looks like that Nazgul were sent to Isengard more like enforcers, possibly so that Saruman would hand over Gandalf to them and they'll handle him themselves, or to get the information out of Saruman - only they later realised they couldn't do that, because Isengard was too heavily fortified and they could not stand up against Saruman on this unfair ground.

Third. Why did Saruman started speaking about the Ring at all? Nobody asked him about it, only about the Shire. Why reveal his knowledge of the connection? The wish to impress the nazgul with his wisdom seems a bit childish. Perhaps his words (the first part of the conversation in The Hunt version C) were meant more for Gandalf than for the WK? The message to the Grey wizard would be "see I know where the Ring is, I know where the Shire is, but I tell the nazgul nothing. I can still be trusted."

Now that is a very interesting and appealing idea, I actually like that! In any case, this moment never ceased to interest me - it may be possibly the moment I love the most in all books. Or certainly one of these most affecting me.

Now the oracular dream made it clear that the Ring would eventually find its way to Rivendell:
Saruman was a Maia, he had an inside knowledge of the Music, he knew who had likely sent the dream. Saruman had reasons to believe that whatever he may do, he would be unable to change what had been ordained. So-why even try?

Well, it was a very long, long time since he went "into flesh". Imagine a human after two thousand years. I think you will have quite a big problem with still believing to what you saw such a long time ago, without any renewing of your contact with it. Saruman had seen kingdoms rise and fall, I am pretty certain he also saw some things which shook his worldview. Isn't Sauron stronger after all, and those beyond the Sea won't reach here to stop him, and in this land here, nobody can? And still, he could not be sure the prophecy is a real prophecy which has any value - it could as well be just some idle talk - or perhaps it may not come true? And the prophecy itself didn't even say much about what is going to happen with the Ring. So, if Saruman believed it, okay, let's say he would accept he cannot change what had been ordained... which is... what? That the doom is near? Right, doom of what? The doom of Middle-Earth is certainly at hand, as now everybody's chasing after the Ring and the coming weeks or months will show everything. And that "the Halfling forth shall stand"? Yes, indeed: it already happened, just as Saruman learned - the Halflings had the Ring all the time! So, really, not much new, besides the fact that seemingly Isildur's heir shall return. But that still does not have to mean victory for the West.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Why didn't Saruman (and indeed Sauron too) not just use their Palantir to search for the Ring ?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Why didn't Saruman (and indeed Sauron too) not just use their Palantir to search for the Ring ?

It is dark in hobbit pocketses - a palantir doesn't show things in the dark. And from afar it looks like quite an ordinary ring anyway. Lots of people have golden rings. It is like looking for a particular black cat from a satellite.

Legate - loved your post. Will reply later.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There are two puzzles here, and I'm not sure either can be answered, except by observing of course that in The Hunt For the Ring Tolkien was trying to backwrite history for the story he wrote at a time he had no idea who or what the Black Riders were, or even what had become of Gandalf!

1). My memory may be failing, but I don't recall that Radagast ever told Saruman the Nine were seeking 'the Shire.' What Saruman knew in June was that the BR were searching the Vales of Anduin, which of course he was content to let them waste their time doing.

2) On the other hand, it's amazing that over the course of sixty years Saruman and his intelligence network had never heard the tale of "Mad Baggins," and put two and two together.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

1). My memory may be failing, but I don't recall that Radagast ever told Saruman the Nine were seeking 'the Shire.'

He did. Radagast told Gandalf:

"I have been told that wherever they go the Riders ask for news of a land called Shire."

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

2) On the other hand, it's amazing that over the course of sixty years Saruman and his intelligence network had never heard the tale of "Mad Baggins," and put two and two together.

THAT is amazing indeed. A certain plothole.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

THAT is amazing indeed. A certain plothole.

I wouldn't say that. What plothole? As much as Sauron never heard about "Mad Baggins" and put two and two together. Nobody knew that Bilbo has the Ring. People did not even know that he is making himself invisible, until the birthday party (where they actually didn't know that he is making himself invisible, but simply that he disappeared. Probably, speaking a bit in the folk-tale-style, the Devil took him finally, since he was obviously making pacts with dark forces: "Sign this and I will give you fame, money and long life... but on your 111th birthday, I will come for you!" - this is pretty evidently the way the tale was narrated later, and Saruman had no special reason to pay attention to this tale than to other folk-tales among the hobbits, about walking trees in the North Moors etc. After all, he was a reasonable and educated man, who does not bother himself with these made-up tales the common folk scares themselves on long winter nights). Bilbo disappeared, that's a fact, but why should that bother Saruman any more than the fact that some random Mr. G. Took from XY mysteriously disappeared two years ago (he was drunk and fell into the river and drowned), or things like that.

[Gordis]

Saruman had agents in the Shire and was most curious about Gandalf's actions there. Wouldn't he be interested by the memorable Party where Gandalf provided all the fireworks and where the host just disappeared into thin air before the eyes of the assembled 144 hobbits? And the story circulated even in Bree!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Saruman had agents in the Shire and was most curious about Gandalf's actions there. Wouldn't he be interested by the memorable Party where Gandalf provided all the fireworks and where the host just disappeared into thin air before the eyes of the assembled 144 hobbits? And the story circulated even in Bree!

Of course he won't be interested! A Party? Which political, military, scientific importance it should have? Gandalf wants to party, well, he was always lazy and doing stupid things of no importance (remember what Saruman said to Gandalf when he was smoking at the White Council meeting: Everybody is discussing grave matters here and you, Gandalf, are playing with your fire and smoke toys). Saruman would never give an idea what might be important about this, as well as he never understood what might be important about the Shire, even though he suspected there is something. But it just didn't make sense to him, and rightly so: Hobbits could not be made good warriors (or so he would think), there was nothing important in the land (farmers - no natural resources, no iron, no great smiths - cf. what the Dwarves thought about the Hobbits, UT, Quest for Erebor! - no hidden deposits of gold, silver, diamonds or mithril...). Now what should poor Saruman think of all this?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now what should poor Saruman think of all this?

That Sauron is WAY better than his crazy colleague...

[Gordis]

Legate, I still own you a reply to your post.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And still, it was so that it could have been Sauron's turn now to "pretend", i.e. he could make Saruman think that he doesn't know about his treachery, which could have helped him, too. The Uruk-hai and the Palantír solved it for Sauron: it is funny, now thinking of it, that Saruman most likely had no contact with Sauron since the Nazgul came to Isengard; and their servants last contacted under captains Uglúk and Grishnákh.

Yes, but likely the Nazgul who was sent to Isengard after the incident of Dol Baran demanded and obtained some explanations. I am not sure Sauron was satisfied though: he left Saruman in peace for a time, but at some point he did promise Isengard to The Mouth of Sauron.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

However, another thing is, that he says these "Lord" things and "I know what you seek" only in version A, where the Nazgul are coming already with a bit of hostile attitude and Sauron at least no longer trusts (or rather "trusts" - maybe I should say: tolerates) Saruman as much.

I think in both cases the nazgul came in low spirits and already angry, as they had just got a reprimand from Sauron.
Unfortunately, only the version A is given in full. In B the talk is much the same, Christopher says, in C it is altered - the first part is not reported word for word, but Saruman in fear admits he has Gandalf within. Then he makes the nazgul wait till he climbs the Tower, sees G. gone, decends to the Gate, and

he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess.[...]"I will report this myself to the Lord of Barad-dûr," he said loftily, "to whom I speak from afar on great matters that concern us. But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. Tim says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country. [...] You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so." version C

That is much better than in A, no doubt. No slips of the tongue.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, indeed, and at least in the UT it seems that he didn't use the Palantír for a long time, or at least not since he imprisoned Gandalf. On the other hand, in the version A at least it says that Sauron learned that Saruman imprisoned Gandalf; now I would like to know, how, since nobody else knew? (No Radagast, not even Elrond or Galadriel.)

Spies, I think - most likely among the uruks (or maybe Dunlendings). Saruman's uruks ultimately came from Mordor, so it was easy to plant a couple spies among them. Sauron had spies in Minas Tirith it seems - that's how he learned of the dream Faramir and Boromir had. Sauron had informers even in Shagrat's band:

`Sh, Gorbag!' Shagrat's voice was lowered. 'The [Top Ones ] got eyes and ears everywhere; some among my lot, as like as not.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

In any case, this moment never ceased to interest me - it may be possibly the moment I love the most in all books. Or certainly one of these most affecting me.

I share your love for "the Hunt" and other Unfinished Tales. Such a shame "the Hunt" manuscripts are not published in full! I think, I like it so much because it is written much more realistically than the main narrative of LOTR. Here we learn of the motivations behind the actions of the good and the bad characters, of spies and traitors, of doubts and some unsavory decisions of the Wise.
The scenes with the nazgul before the Gates of Isengard and the questioning of Grima are very compelling and powerful. Pity we see no interaction between bad guys in LOTR (except between orcs, like the talk between Gorbag and Shagrat which I love as well).

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And the prophecy itself didn't even say much about what is going to happen with the Ring. So, if Saruman believed it, okay, let's say he would accept he cannot change what had been ordained... which is... what? That the doom is near? Right, doom of what? The doom of Middle-Earth is certainly at hand, as now everybody's chasing after the Ring and the coming weeks or months will show everything. And that "the Halfling forth shall stand"? Yes, indeed: it already happened, just as Saruman learned - the Halflings had the Ring all the time! So, really, not much new, besides the fact that seemingly Isildur's heir shall return. But that still does not have to mean victory for the West.

The most interesting line, IMO, was "There [in Imladris] shall be shown a token that Doom is near at hand." The token was likely the Ring, because the next line speaks about "Isildur's bane". Thus the Ring was ordained to come to Rivendell.
If Saruman believed the prophecy, he would know it was useless to try to prevent it. Sauron also knew this prophecy, but tried to stop the Ring nonetheless.
But the prophecy speaks not of further events. After Imladris, Saruman's hands were free - and he acted.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Except that, assuming Sauron put any credence in a lowly Mannish fortuneteller, he still didn't know what Isildur's Bane was. That was known only to the Wise, and though Saruman was a traitor we can be certain that anything related to the Ring he kept to himself and didn't share with the Eye.

Yes, indeed, and at least in the UT it seems that he didn't use the Palantír for a long time, or at least not since he imprisoned Gandalf. On the other hand, in the version A at least it says that Sauron learned that Saruman imprisoned Gandalf; now I would like to know, how, since nobody else knew? (No Radagast, not even Elrond or Galadriel.)

Just because Saruman wasn't answering the phone, that doesn't mean that Sauron wasn't using his own palantir for scrying- certainly as soon as he cast his Eye towards Orthanc he would have noticed the prisoner on the roof!

That doesn't of course eliminate the possibility of spies.

What I found interesting is that notwithstanding the Gandalf affair, and Saruman's lies to the Nazgul, Sauron nonetheless ordered Grishnakh to cooperate with Ugluk, long before Amon Hen. (T gives great detail on the actions of these two in his time-schemes: both were despatched as soon as messages reached Barad-dur and Orthanc of the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Ugluk, having less distance to cover, was already lurking on the eaves of Lorien a week after Gandalf's fall. Ghrishnakh made contact with them near Sarn Gebir, and on the 2nd "Grishnákh reinforced. Ordered to cooperate with Uglúk. (Sauron does not yet suspect Saruman).
"

That Sauron sure was a trusting fella! But then we see that as late as Dol Baran he actually assumed Saruman would simply hand over the Ringbearer on demand. Wise fool.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Except that, assuming Sauron put any credence in a lowly Mannish fortuneteller, he still didn't know what Isildur's Bane was. That was known only to the Wise, and though Saruman was a traitor we can be certain that anything related to the Ring he kept to himself and didn't share with the Eye.

Do you really believe that Sauron was not smart enough to figure out the meaning of "Isildur's Bane" all on his own?

Gandalf: ‘Yes, alas! through [Gollum] the Enemy has learned that the One has been found again. He knows where Isildur fell. He knows where Gollum found his ring. He knows that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life. He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil. He knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine, for they are accounted for. He knows that it is the One. - The Shadow of the Past

The only reason why Boromir and Faramir haven't figured it out as well, was that in Gondor they didn't know that Isildur took the Ring from Sauron. Sauron himself knew it fairly well. And he knew how Isildur fell. So the solution was easy.

Just because Saruman wasn't answering the phone, that doesn't mean that Sauron wasn't using his own palantir for scrying- certainly as soon as he cast his Eye towards Orthanc he would have noticed the prisoner on the roof!

Ha-ha, that is brilliant. Fool I was not to think about it myself.

What I found interesting is that notwithstanding the Gandalf affair, and Saruman's lies to the Nazgul, Sauron nonetheless ordered Grishnakh to cooperate with Ugluk, long before Amon Hen. (T gives great detail on the actions of these two in his time-schemes: both were despatched as soon as messages reached Barad-dur and Orthanc of the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Ugluk, having less distance to cover, was already lurking on the eaves of Lorien a week after Gandalf's fall. Ghrishnakh made contact with them near Sarn Gebir, and on the 2nd "Grishnákh reinforced. Ordered to cooperate with Uglúk. (Sauron does not yet suspect Saruman).

Yes, it is baffling. This part hardly agrees with the other texts of "the Hunt". The very facts that Sauron had sent only 40 uruks to Saruman's 80 and also had forbidden the nazgul (who was near Amon Hen) to cross Anduin don't make sense to me at all. What harm could there have been to Mordor's secrecy if one starry night the nazgul landed his beast in front of Ugluk's band and kindly asked them to please turn eastwards?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The only reason why Boromir and Faramir haven't figured it out as well, was that in Gondor they didn't know that Isildur took the Ring from Sauron. Sauron himself knew it fairly well. And he knew how Isildur fell. So the solution was easy.

Did he know how Isildur fell? Sauron was already neutralized by then, and would have had no particular knowledge of a skirmish two years later- and certainly wouldn't have any idea that the Ring, specifically, caused Isildur's death by slipping off at the wrong moment. The attacking Orcs didn't know about the Ring, and in the west only three survivors brought the news of the disaster to Elrond (only one of whom, "Ohtar," actually knew about the Ring).

For that matter, did Sauron even know that Isildur took the Ring? He was already 'dead.' PJ notwithstanding, it was Elendil and Gil-galad who did him in: Isildur was just looting the corpse.

In short, Isildur's possession of the Ring was known to very, very few: Elrond, the sole witness, and the survivors of the Gladden. Elrond's knowledge was circulated among the Wise, but is was always highly classified information.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Did he know how Isildur fell? Sauron was already neutralized by then, and would have had no particular knowledge of a skirmish two years later- and certainly wouldn't have any idea that the Ring, specifically, caused Isildur's death by slipping off at the wrong moment. The attacking Orcs didn't know about the Ring, and in the west only three survivors brought the news of the disaster to Elrond (only one of whom, "Ohtar," actually knew about the Ring).

The quote I have given in the previous post proves that Sauron knew where Isildur fell and where Gollum found the Ring. Of course, he knew it by 3017-18, not when it actually happened: he had an Age to learn these facts. Sauron's agents were searching the Anduin even prior to Sauron's relocation to Mordor.

That the Ring caused Isildur's death by slipping off was a surmise made by the Wise - but Sauron could make the same surmise just as easily. After all, he knew his Ring better then the Wise did.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

For that matter, did Sauron even know that Isildur took the Ring? He was already 'dead.' PJ notwithstanding, it was Elendil and Gil-galad who did him in: Isildur was just looting the corpse.

Yea, we better forget PJ, but in the "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" Isildur says in front of Elrond and Cirdan (who had witnessed the whole scene, so he couldn't lie):

‘This I will have as were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?

Here is how the sequence of events is described:

But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places- "Of the Rings of Power..."

I see it this way. Sure it were Elendil and Gil-Galad who had brought Sauron down. He lay there vanquished and unresisting, dieing. But I am almost sure that Isildur managed to cut Sauron's finger before his spirit had left the body.

in the letter 211 Tolkien writes:

Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring” back to Middle-earth after the drowning of Numenor.

So, if Isildur but waited a tad longer, the spirit of Sauron would have carried away the One Ring, leaving Isildur with no weregild!

As for Sauron's body, I guess it had decomposed as swiftly as Saruman's - weren't they both incarnate Maiar? Maybe faster, because it was indeed hot and burning. Natural combustion-and there is nothing to loot and nothing to dispose of.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Hmmmm. You're right, there.

All the same, Sauron waited until ca. 2940 to begin searching the Gladden Fields. Which means... I'm not sure. It took him that long to learn of Isildur's fall? Not likely- surely all Gondor's history was in the libraries of Minas Ithil when he took it, and I'm sure he had spies among the Gondorians and/or Black Numenoreans and/or rebel Umbar. Just took him that long to expand his power from Dol Guldur?

But even so, there would have been no particular reason for Sauron to think 'Isildur's Bane' was the Ring- it could have been an arrow, or a scimitar, or his horse..... The forensic investigation of the scene was carried out by the Elves, not the recently-extinct Orc-band.

How likely would Sauron have been, really, to be aware of Malbeth's prophecy? Who knew of it, aside from the Wise and the cheftains of the Dunedain? And even if he did, would he have believed it? I'm sure the history of the Third Age was littered with Nostrodamuses, most of whom were spouting rubbish.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

How likely would Sauron have been, really, to be aware of Malbeth's prophecy? Who knew of it, aside from the Wise and the cheftains of the Dunedain? And even if he did, would he have believed it? I'm sure the history of the Third Age was littered with Nostrodamuses, most of whom were spouting rubbish.

No, no - it has nothing to do with Malbeth.

Isildur's Bane was spoken about in a dream that first Faramir, then Boromir had seen in June 3018.
It was a fairly recent dream - and troubling. Sauron learned of these "oracular dream-words", as did Saruman (see UT, Hunt for the Ring). Denethor was troubled enough to send the Captain-General of Gondor to search the answers in the middle of nowhere, and this right after the assault on Osgiliath.

At the moment, Sauron was frantically searching for the Ring - the nazgul were out looking for the Shire and Baggins. It was quite simple to dechipher "Isildur's bane", sign of Doom that is at hand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yes, but likely the Nazgul who was sent to Isengard after the incident of Dol Baran demanded and obtained some explanations. I am not sure Sauron was satisfied though: he left Saruman in peace for a time, but at some point he did promise Isengard to The Mouth of Sauron.

Well, I think the Nazgul found just shut windows and flooded Isengard, the same as Gandalf did. Gandalf even says something like that, when riding with Pippin, I think - he says also that Sauron would crush Saruman now, but he cannot, Gondor and Rohan are between them. Sauron was not "satisfied" by any means, and the only reason why he left Saruman in peace was simply that he had to deal with his enemies fast. Even if Saruman had the Ring now, he could not attack him directly, until he could surround Orthanc by his armies.

That is much better than in A, no doubt. No slips of the tongue.

Yes, definitely.

Spies, I think - most likely among the uruks (or maybe Dunlendings). Saruman's uruks ultimately came from Mordor, so it was easy to plant a couple spies among them. Sauron had spies in Minas Tirith it seems - that's how he learned of the dream Faramir and Boromir had. Sauron had informers even in Shagrat's band:

Well yes, although it's a bit different having spies among your own servants and having spies in Orthanc, but it actually makes a lot of sense. Good idea. (Even though still I have to wonder, how did those spies communicate with Sauron. Okay, possibly they went [Orcs] let's say to Moria [Orcs] - where Sauron had, since some time, his own Orcs - and from there it was passed on; or to some other agents living in a cottage in Eastfold or such, who again passed the message on... meeting spies from the eastern riverbank every full moon or something like that... And Sauron had enough time to get this information.)

And as for the hypothesis of him seeing it with the Palantír, possible, but still, I am not sure how much accurately he could see with it - if there was not any "interference" because of the distance, or perhaps because of Saruman's art or something else?

I share your love for "the Hunt" and other Unfinished Tales. Such a shame "the Hunt" manuscripts are not published in full! I think, I like it so much because it is written much more realistically than the main narrative of LOTR. Here we learn of the motivations behind the actions of the good and the bad characters, of spies and traitors, of doubts and some unsavory decisions of the Wise.
The scenes with the nazgul before the Gates of Isengard and the questioning of Grima are very compelling and powerful. Pity we see no interaction between bad guys in LOTR (except between orcs, like the talk between Gorbag and Shagrat which I love as well).

Yes! Exactly. Actually, what I liked the most when I read the books for the first time was the Uruk-hai chapter and Uglúk & Grishnákh exchanges...

Yes, it is baffling. This part hardly agrees with the other texts of "the Hunt". The very facts that Sauron had sent only 40 uruks to Saruman's 80 and also had forbidden the nazgul (who was near Amon Hen) to cross Anduin don't make sense to me at all. What harm could there have been to Mordor's secrecy if one starry night the nazgul landed his beast in front of Ugluk's band and kindly asked them to please turn eastwards?

Well, I think Sauron was a bit naive in his power, I think - he believed that Saruman would not be able to withstand him, that he is a coward (in which he was right), and will hand over the prisoners and not dare to start anything in fear of Sauron's vengeance if he did. It was possibly also that "you send forty Orcs, I send forty Orcs, they will have a nice cooperation", just Saruman proved to be more daring here and sent twice more. (Or maybe it was "Let's meet by the river, each of us will send exactly twenty Orcs." Grishnákh comes with forty: "Guess what. Sauron lied." Uglúk: "Guess what. Saruman lied... more!" )
As for the Nazgul, it was some sort of "taboo" - Nazgul simply are NOT crossing the river, that's an order. You have to consider that we are looking at it from our a bit postmodern point of view, but it is something similar as when let's say in some ancient culture, people were banned to wear yellow colour. Sometimes, it did not even have any logical explanation why they should not do so, but it simply was the way it was done. You simply don't do that. Point.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Did he know how Isildur fell? Sauron was already neutralized by then, and would have had no particular knowledge of a skirmish two years later- and certainly wouldn't have any idea that the Ring, specifically, caused Isildur's death by slipping off at the wrong moment. The attacking Orcs didn't know about the Ring, and in the west only three survivors brought the news of the disaster to Elrond (only one of whom, "Ohtar," actually knew about the Ring).

For that matter, did Sauron even know that Isildur took the Ring? He was already 'dead.' PJ notwithstanding, it was Elendil and Gil-galad who did him in: Isildur was just looting the corpse.

In short, Isildur's possession of the Ring was known to very, very few: Elrond, the sole witness, and the survivors of the Gladden. Elrond's knowledge was circulated among the Wise, but is was always highly classified information.

But like Gordis says, Sauron knew and it was mentioned several times even in LotR (Shadows of the Past, Gandalf says something like "He knows where Isildur fell. He knows that it is a Ring..." etc.)

[Alfirin]

Isn't there a bit in the Unfinished Tales "The Tragedy of the Gladden Fields" or something like that. That more or less says expicitly that Saruman, not only knew where Isuldur fell but had in fact dug him up and scattered or destroyed his bones, and kept the varios things found with the body (like the orginal Gondorian crown)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Isn't there a bit in the Unfinished Tales "The Tragedy of the Gladden Fields" or something like that. That more or less says expicitly that Saruman, not only knew where Isuldur fell but had in fact dug him up and scattered or destroyed his bones, and kept the varios things found with the body (like the orginal Gondorian crown)?

Yes, truly. Not the Gondorian crown, but the Elendilmir. It is not 100% sure that Saruman has found Isildur's body, but it is implied that very likely, he did.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

However, I would think that that occurred very late, after Saruman went entirely bad. As a member of the White Council Saruman naturally would have known about the Gladden Fields just as Gandalf did.

Numbers: The Chronology, which with luck will be published before long, casts a lot of light on Enemy movements. It's fairly clear that although on the one hand G and U were nominally 'cooperating', it's also the case that Sauron's original plan was to intercept the Company at Sarn Gebir, keeping Ugluk well out of it. After the ambush failed, G crossed the river but with only a small part of his Orcs, because crossing the River at the Rapids was not easy or quick, and because he couldn't leave the east bank of the River unguarded. In the meantime, Ugluk in the Emyn Muil had not only his Isengarders, but a substantial party of Mountain-orcs he had brought down from Moria. In other words G was substantially outnumbered, and thus was forced to feign cooperation and simply keep an eye on Ugluk, orders which were reinforced by the second Nazgul when he broke away for 'consultation.' (Note that G left Ugluk's party by himself; the forty Uruks he returned with were apparently new reinforcements. Whatever Orc-commandos he had crossed with apparently were killed at Amon Hen, or by Ugluk in the Emyn Muil. The forty new guys one would think were 'picked Orcs,' since their forced march/marathon to the eaves of Fangorn was the most astounding feat of any of the parties crossing Rohan: 100 miles in 35 hours.)