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12-02-2008, 08:25 AM | #1 | |||
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Who was the old man?
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It does make sense Saruman perhaps so keen to get his hands on the Ring went as far so as to leave Isengard and go take it himself, but only discovered the corpses of the Uruks and afterwards caused the horses to flee hoping to weaken the three Hunters that way. However, he was planning much at that time and was preparing to attack at the Fords of the Isen, this makes me doubt him leaving Orthanc at that time. What is your opinion?
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12-02-2008, 08:55 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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It is of course an open question, and a favorite technique of
Tolkien in using ambiguous interpretations (a technique I rather like). Saruman was, I think, almost certainly not there in person, but projecting some sort of wraith works for me in a more satisfactory way then PJ;s having having Saruman manipulate Caradhras to cause a snowstorm. But one aspect of Middle-earth PJ blew was the concept of autonomous forces for good and evil, hence the "old man" could well have been some other force then Saruman, however, I think Tolkien's view of it may have been to 1) create an unresolved suspense 2) put in another anomolous element (like Tom bambadil).
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12-02-2008, 10:23 AM | #3 |
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If we take Gandalf's word that is was not he who appeared to the three, it must have been Saruman, whether physically present or not. To me, the presence of another old man who just happened to be in the area and refused Aragorn's offer of fire and company would strain credibility. I would be inclined to think he was actually there, looking for evidence of the Ring, or at least Merry and Pippin.
Even though heavily involved in planning his war on the Rohirrim, I can well imagine his leaving Isengard for a few days to try to find first hand information on the whereabouts of the Ring. Sorry for the brevity, but I'm at work and duty calls.
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12-02-2008, 11:08 AM | #4 | |||
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I always assumed it was Saruman or at least his phantom. If Gandalf had sent a phantom of himself he would have told the three hunters.
I always forget about this part until I read it, then for a few chapters I'm perplexed until I forget about it and the process starts anew when I reread. Quote:
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12-02-2008, 11:25 AM | #5 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Saruman.
And didn't Gimli look for boot tracks, but can't remember if he ever found them. And didn't Aragorn say something like they didn't matter? And Legolas would have spotted that it was a phantom, so most likely it was Saruman out for a stroll, and having come across three hunters in the woods - no hobbits, no Rings, etc - he left as the three were of no concern. And just what was that small rumbling in Fangorn?!? Or maybe it was Tom Bombadil's shyer brother...
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12-02-2008, 11:45 AM | #6 | ||
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I have been little puzzled though, if I recall, didn't the old man smile at Aragorn&co? I could imagine that if he found the Orcs dead, and presumed them having the Ring first, he would be scared to death! (Now somebody surely has the Ring - who? Sauron? The Rohirrim? These three guys???) He acted very calm. Okay, maybe that would speak also for that not being Saruman in person - this was just a harmless phantom, Saruman in flesh and blood would have shown the three guys some of his power to get them to answer his questions (or hand over the Ring). The only thing I can think of about stopping a live Saruman from doing that is that he would be more afraid of the three guys than he gave away, possibly afraid of them having the Ring and being powerful enough to use it against them? Or that he thought them merely "some three wanderers", which would be most weird, though: and Elf and a Dwarf, and just by chance close to the place where the Orcs were killed. If he was scared of them, I could imagine him at least scaring away their horses, if he couldn't do anything else. But I find it now actually more probable (after thinking about it) that it was really just a phantom of Saruman, not Saruman himself (although until this far, I presumed it was Saruman, without giving it much thought). Quote:
Older brother, eh? Oh no, wait... TB is "Eldest"... in that case, younger brother. Ha, what does it mean then? The Bombadils' look the older, the younger they are! A very interesting contribution to the obscure topic of Bombadilology. Projecting? Hmm... "Lord Uglśk?" "Yes, Master." "We have a new enemy. The young Hobbit who destroyed the Death Star..."
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12-02-2008, 12:04 PM | #7 | ||
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This is quite baffling and it's going to bother me all day. The fact whoever the old man was was wearing a hat suggests it wasn't Saruman because he was hooded and cloaked. In which case it would have a Gandalf phantom, but unless Gandalf phantom's appears randomly at its own will I doubt the old man was part of Gandalf. Maybe alatar is right and it is Bombadil's shy brother. Or it was those pesky elf teens out for a good time again.
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12-02-2008, 12:22 PM | #8 |
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I don't think this can be taken as an evidence... even Aragorn seemed to dismiss it, even if it's him who brings this up in the very same sentence. One time a hood, next time a hat - Saruman can surely change fashion. Although personally I prefer to leave the air of mystery at least on this: why a hat all of a sudden - it was Saruman, but why the hat? What does it mean?
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12-02-2008, 12:46 PM | #9 | |
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But it could be some kind of wizard-walk after effect (i.e. Gandalf could travel faster than one would expect).
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12-02-2008, 01:59 PM | #10 | |
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I'm just going to believe Radagast was out and about freeing horses as part of his PETA activism.
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12-02-2008, 02:41 PM | #11 | |
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12-02-2008, 03:07 PM | #12 |
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The Radagast possiblity raises an interesting point. Gandalf says, time and time again that he and Saruman look very alike, or at least, that Saruman would have no trouble whatsoever in looking just like him. This brings up the question, does Radagast also resemble Gandalf so closely, closely enough that he could be mistaken for him? As far as I know, no one in the fellowship, except for Gandalf himself, has actually ever seen Radagast, (though, since Radagast lives near Mirkwoods southern borders, there is a slight chance Legolas has.) Maybe, in the eyes of mere mortal all Ishtari resemble each other a great deal. I have usally though of Radagast as looking a lot younger than Gandalf with a beard that, while long has not yet greyed (maybe it the color, brown wizard, brown beard), but then I usally (Christopher Lee or no Christopher Lee) imagine Saruman as looking a lot younger and better preseved than Gandalf, at bit stockier and with a beard that is much shorter and bushier (imagine a somewhat slimmed down Santa Claus, and you'll have the rough idea) an old man to whome the years apper to have been kinder than they have to Gandalf.
If it is Radagast, then maybe, he is wandering around, keeping an eye on the travelers. Radagast would know Saruman has turned (If nothing else, Gwahir would have likey told him when he left Gandalf, or at least the next time the two of them came in contact.) He might even know about the loss of Gandalf in Moria (say, from a bird who overheard it in Lothlorien or somwhere else along the Fellowships path). the "hiding in the shadows" may simply be because he fears the reprocussions of open rebellion against Saruman (I get the feeling that Radagast is no where near as powerful as Saruman, at least in terms of open one on one conflict.) so he hides in the background, and does what he can to help the fellowship. The freeing of the horses is odd, but maybe it's his attempt to minimize the chances of the hunters detection. Horses may make travel faster, but they also leave a much more obvios trail than three on foot (at least two of whom are skilled in woodcraft). It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it). |
12-02-2008, 04:59 PM | #13 |
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The truth here is that knobody knew for sure, not even Gandalf. The only certainty was that it was not Gandalf. But given the symbolic and prophetic warning of the disguise of Saruman by Eomer, the reaction of the 3 hunters when the old man appeared, and of course, Gandalf's guess, it all pointed out to being Saruman. A clever ploy by Tolkein, to stir the reader with fear or uncertainty over a mysterious connotation. Aragorn did not stir too much on the arrival of the old man, however, as it would take much more than this to cause alarm to a Ranger, who already had enough courage to chase off the Lord of the Nazgul and 4 of his servants at night.
Last edited by Mansun; 12-02-2008 at 05:19 PM. |
12-02-2008, 09:30 PM | #14 |
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What I find confusing is that Gandalf says that the old man was not him, but the appearance of the old man is also (apparently) linked with the horses running off. As pointed out, however, the horses were in fact not scared away at all, but were overjoyed to encounter Shadowfax. These two events seem to be linked, but one points to Gandalf (or at least to his horse), the other to somebody other than Gandalf.
This whole issue is made a bit more ambiguous by he fact that there is some blurring of Gandalf's and Saruman's roles as the White Wizard when Aragorn and company encounter him later in Fangorn... Still, one has to accept Gandalf's emphatic statement that what they saw was certainly not him. In addition, there is no reason why Gandalf would not have revealed himself to the company at this stage if it was him. So the phantom of Saruman seems most reasonable...
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12-03-2008, 08:02 AM | #15 |
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I really doubt it was Saruman, as no matter how much he feared them, I doubt it would be too much for him to not try to get the Ring. It was the object of his desires and so if he thought the Three Hunters may have it, he would have surely attacked. Of course, he may have sensed that the Ring was not near and so decided to make an exit.
A phantom also seems somewhat unlikely, although if Saruman had indeed studied the dark arts he may have learned something on this topic. Maybe he just looked into the palantir and thought "ah well, could at least try to annoy them with a spooky ghost". What I now actually find most plausible of all is Radagast being there. The only problem is - what would Radagast be doing there? If he had indeed come to Fangorn, why didn't either Gandalf nor Treebeard mention him? At least Treebeard should probably know. But it does somewaht make sense - Gandalf informed Radagast to tell all the birds and beasts in Mirkwood to round up information on the actions of the Enemy on Midsummer's Day. On September 18 Gwaihir bearing news to Isengard found Gandalf imprisoned. In that time Radagast went to Mirkwood, probably to Rhosgobel and sent out the word and from there it wasn't that far to the eaves of Mirkwood. Especially by taking the Redhorn route he could have made it that far. The only problem I have is - after leaving Gandalf why would Radagast make his way towards Isengard instead of chilling in the forest with birds and beasts? It was not really his character to do that.
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12-03-2008, 10:42 AM | #16 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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So I'm still saying it was Saruman. He had no woodcraft, and knew that his Uruks were bringing hobbits to him, and so he appears, albeit clumsily, in Fangorn's edge. Wasn't this the whole reason a little later he unleashes Isengard on Theoden, thinking that one of those horse boys may have carried a ring back to Edoras? And doesn't someone mention something like, 'for once, Saruman came too late?'
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12-03-2008, 01:24 PM | #17 |
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But alatar, the big problem here is that Saruman does nothing at all to fight against the three. He would have recognized them and I have no doubt he knew he could take them down. He was no coward, he faced Gandalf the Grey and so the Three Hunters would quickly be done with. Why should he not have done it? It would end any possibility for Gondor to have a new king and it would weaken Rohan as they would not receive any help from the three.
Is simply makes no sense at all for Saruman himself to see them and then just go away. Maybe he looked into the palantir to determine their position (keep in mind palantiri were useful as long as there was enough light where the observation took place - the campfire) and then conjured up some evil ghost of himself and sent it their to annoy them. It could be that just like Sauron, Saruman was so certain of getting the Ring soon that he saw no need to leave Orthanc at all.
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12-03-2008, 01:40 PM | #18 | |
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Didn't one of the hobbits remark that Saruman had no real courage (though they were somewhat mistaken)? If it's not Saruman, then what be the case for it to be anyone else?
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12-03-2008, 01:51 PM | #19 | |
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(EDIT: I see alatar has crossposted with me on the subject)
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12-03-2008, 02:06 PM | #20 |
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I see other have hit on the fact Saruman wouldn't have needed or known to bother with the three hunters at this point, so I'll forget what I was going to say which has been stated better by others.
However, maybe the old man was a vision of Gandalf sent by someone else. Who? I can't say. But it reads as a sort of foreshadowing that Gandalf is about to return and there is this hatted old man who may have been a vision to the hunters of what was to come. The problem with this theory is who would have had the power to show the three hunters that Gandalf was abroad in the land.
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12-03-2008, 02:50 PM | #21 | |||
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Oh, I was not aware of that... bah, and I thought I know stuff... FAIL
No, but actually now Kitanna is making a great argument. Here is my idea after reading her post - Galadriel, who did indeed know of Gandalf's return or the wizard himself managed to implant this thought into the minds of the Three Hunters hoping for them to realise that Gandalf had returned. The horses leaving was only a coincidence caused by Shadowfax' arrival. To support the idea, I'll be pasting in some quotes from the essay Ósanwe-kenta by Pengolodh, later found by Tolkien and edited in `98 by Hostetter. Quote:
Affinity- he was their friend, so was she Urgency - well Gandalf wasn't under any adrenalin rush so this isn't that plausible, although it was important for them to know of his return, also not working for Galadriel that well Authority - he was after all a "leader" for them and they looked up to him for guidance and so was Galadriel in a way Quote:
Also consider the precedents: Quote:
So yeah, kudos Kitanna, I believe your post was most enlightening!
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12-03-2008, 03:15 PM | #22 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I would still trust Gandalf's wisdom and think that the old man was Saruman, whether in person or just a "projection".
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12-03-2008, 03:45 PM | #23 | |||||
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I doubt that Legate...
I actually believe Gandalf wanted Shadowfax to come and collect the horses needed for the journey. Take a loot at these quotes from LotR: Quote:
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And it seems that even Aragorn was uncertain whether the horses "fled at first in fear". I actually believe that whilst the three were distracted with this vision Shadowfax came by and took the horses with him. I mean, who wouldn't leave if your king rode around?! Also, take a look here: Quote:
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So yeah, I hope all that makes sense, enough argumentating for today and all in all I stick to the idea that it was a vision sent by Galadriel.
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12-03-2008, 07:20 PM | #24 | ||
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It's over...though oddly expressed.
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12-03-2008, 07:30 PM | #25 | |
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Of course the other possibility is that, if the old man is in fact a phantom, that he did not appear to the horses at all and their only encounter was with Shadowfax. In any case, it makes no real sense for either Gandalf or Radagast to run off when invited by Aragorn to join the party. Only Saruman makes sense here, and he has the best motivation to be there (in physical or phantom form), since he is trying to find out what happened to his Orc party...
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12-04-2008, 02:52 AM | #26 |
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That's a good find, alatar!
So definitely Saruman did come near Fangorn, the problem is I still don't see why he would not do anything but vanish upon seein Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. That somehow does not seem to make sense for me... what if they knew more of what happened to the Orcs? Why would he not use his voice to talk to them and learn more? Makes no sense... So I still believe it was a vision...
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12-04-2008, 06:39 AM | #27 | |
Odinic Wanderer
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12-04-2008, 08:43 AM | #28 | ||
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Well it said Saruman was asking himself whether the Ring had been used in the battle or if Theoden had it and had learned of its powers and so returned to Isengard in order to double and treble his efforts against Rohan.
However, it still makes no sense. Of course it is plausible that Saruman being in the area came along said "Boo!" to the horses and left, but I just can't believe it. Maybe it was a phantom after all: Quote:
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Such a difficult topic...
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12-04-2008, 10:04 AM | #29 |
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If this 'phantom' ability exists, is it ever used before or after this event? Why I have trouble believing it exists is that Gandalf doesn't use it or comment on it as an 'ability,' nor do we see it used when it would be very convenient to do so.
Kinda like Peter Jackson's Saruman's fireball spell that was absent went he was attacked by creatures comprised of wood.
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12-04-2008, 11:10 AM | #30 | |
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Keep in mind alatar, that many of the new abilities that Saruman may have had were unknown to Gandalf.
Saruman was well learned in the lore of the rings and had forget a ring of power of his own, indeed of lesser power, but still - who knows what he could achieve with it? A very very interesting thing I just found out is this: Quote:
Unfortunately no clear examples of him doing so are known or at least I recall none.
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12-04-2008, 11:25 AM | #31 | |||
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What I am saying is that Saruman may make a new thing or two, but to create a completely new phenomenon never used before or afterwards? Unlikely, at least to me. Quote:
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12-04-2008, 02:18 PM | #32 |
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My personal suspicion has always been that the "old man" was Saruman, whose mind was so bent on finding out precisely what had happened in that area that he unwittingly projected an image of himself -- his thought, since what he is in uttermost truth is a being of thought, not flesh -- to try to see who was around that campfire, and if any hobbits might be there (especially the Ringbearer). When they addressed him directly, he suddenly realized what he had done, "stepped back" and vanished. My own reasoning is that he is, after all, a Maia, and travel via thought is natural for him in his natural state, but bound to flesh as were all the Istari on this mission, he might be able to do it only in thought -- what might be perceived by others as a "phantom" state. Moreover, he is intensely interested in what happened here, as was indicated by the fact that he actually left the safety of Orthanc to do his own reconnaissance (and was almost caught by the angry Ents). That it was a "phantom" has, in my mind, been supported by Gimli's unease over the lack of footprints at the beginning of "The White Rider" chapter. Legolas dismisses it because of the springy grass, yet he himself says that Aragorn could read even a bent blade -- yet none are mentioned, if I recall correctly.
Under this rationale, it's also possible Gandalf "projected" his own thought as well, also unintentionally; this might be supported by the fact that the "phantom" wore a wide-brimmed hat, as is also how Gandalf is described when he first meets with the three hunters in Fangorn. Either could work, I think; I just lean toward Saruman because Gandalf seemed very certain that they had not seen him. But he could be wrong. My brain feels rather knotted, now...
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12-04-2008, 02:33 PM | #33 |
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My concern is that the 'explanation' of the phantom menace violates Occam's Razor, meaning that it makes things even more complicated, when the simpler solution - that Saruman journeyed on foot or physically by some wizardly means - is available and supportable.
And note that Aragorn *could* read a bent blade, but does not make an attempt to do so. If Aragorn states that he cannot find a bent blade, then I would accept the phantom explanation more readily, but Aragorn does not examine any evidence for us to gnaw. And Gandalf states that Saruman could appear however he wished via the power of his voice (methinks) and so how hard would it be to beguile three sleepy travelers? And that's enough ands for now.
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12-04-2008, 04:04 PM | #34 |
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Lots of ands there, yup.
The only problem I have with the "beguiling sleepy travelers" notion is that the "phantom" never speaks. If the power of his voice is being used, then he had to add the "post-hypnotic suggestion" that they never heard him. And if that is the case, then why not just make them think he was never there at all? A very odd little moment. Maybe it was an illusion sent by the Valar to remind let the hunters know they were soon to encounter someone unexpected. Nah, too many interference problems there, too. *sigh*
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12-04-2008, 04:42 PM | #35 |
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It could have just been an innocent traveller wondering at night, unconcerned by the appearance of the three hunters and minding his own business!
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12-04-2008, 06:27 PM | #36 | |
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Mansun
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I think Radagast is out of the question for the same reason. He had played a very minor role in the story to that point, and that early on, and there was simply no plausible excuse I can think of that would have brought him to that spot on ME at that time. There has been some good discussion here about this. I always just believed it to be Saruman and never gave it much thought until now. The point of the clothing descriptions between Saruman and Gandalf regarding hats and cloaks has been brought up. I don't see that as significant. UT makes mention in the chapter (I think, not having my copy handy) The Hunt for the Ring of Saruman being seen by Hobbits in the Shire and being mistaken for Gandalf. And as others have said, it shouldn't have been much of an effort for Saruman to change clothes.
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12-05-2008, 07:08 AM | #37 | |
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Ah, alatar, now I understand what you meant. I thought you were asking whether Saruman was known to have had such power before or afterwards, but I see you meant it generally as in the history of M-e. In which case of course there had been others who deeply knowledged in the dark arts used them to conjure up "phantoms".
Take the Barrow-wights raised by the Lord of the Nazgul as a best example not to mention the deeds of Sauron during the First Age. Actually, the phantom could well fit the characteristics of a wraith as described elsewhere by Tolkien, clad in this case like Saruman and not with some dark cloaks like the Nazgul. What I am saying with all this is yes, there was a precedent so there is no reason to think that it was no longer possible - the Witch-king had done it like what, a couple of months before? And you also bring up Occam's razor, something I would rather object to. Why? If we were all judging by this priciple probably a lot of the threads on the forum including this one would not have existed. I would have believed it was Saruman and not questioned it. And even so, Occam's razor does not necessarily mean that the simplest answer is the right one: Quote:
Although I agree that your idea is most likely, the others are plausible and should not be discarded that easily. I was not looking for a clear answer in this thread, I doubt one can be found, what I search for is alternatives.
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The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
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12-05-2008, 10:24 AM | #38 | ||||||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
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Not to say that I'm right...
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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12-06-2008, 10:03 AM | #39 | ||
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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Whilst constantly trying to prove me wrong, I don't see a lot of proof for you being right.
Ok, so I admit the idea with the wraith was a bit stupid, but can you provide me with proof that Saruman had a good reason to run along, say "boo!" to the horses and run along again without using his voice on the travellers or questioning them. He needed to know what had happened to the Ring, it was a question that was on his mind as seen in some of the quotes above, so why would he not try to find out something from these three guys, they were after all suspiciously close to the place the Orcs were defeated. Your idea mentioned earlier was that... Quote:
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The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
Delos B. McKown |
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12-06-2008, 11:32 AM | #40 | |||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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That said, it was Saruman that appeared - no question, at least to me. Quote:
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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