Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gandalf, during the Council of Elrond

Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood - and that was the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was.

But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself.

Originally Posted by Gandalf, a little later in the monologue

But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine.

The two quotes above, from The Fellowship of the Ring, show Gandalf presenting two different versions of what befell Sauron at Dol Guldur. In the first, the White Council makes to drive him out, but Sauron leaves of his own volition. Dol Guldur was just a temporary residence while Mordor was being made ready - and it was close to the Gladden Fields as well. In Gandalf's second comment, we have Saruman credited with some super weapon or stratagem that drives Sauron from Dol Guldur.

So which is it? Was Sauron flying or faking?

[skip spence]

I imagine that Sauron did put up a fight, although without the intention of winning. The White Council would feel more at ease perhaps having to fight a battle to oust the Necromancer than just seeing him slip out the back door. The devices of Saruman could've been the explosives that were used in Helms Deep by his army or other siege equipment, perhaps mechanical.

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

So which is it? Was Sauron flying or faking?

I agree with what skip said here. Sauron has retreated, but of course first the Council would have needed to have enough power to drive him out in the first place. Otherwise, he would have just merrily remained in Dol Guldur. It was certainly not easy to drive him away from there, Gandalf says:

I alone of you have ever been in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, and only in his older and lesser dwelling in Dol Guldur.

which emphasises the power of Barad-Dur, but at the same time it shows that Dol Guldur, if we placed aside Barad Dur, would be still pretty remarkable. That means that Dol Guldur was at its time (and later, after being reoccupied, too - actually, "with power sevenfold", as Haldir [? I think] says) a mighty fortress and not just one tiny hut in the woods; it had its garrison and all sorts of defenses, no doubt. And you will find more quotes showing in one way or another how mighty it was (e.g. Haldir to Frodo on Cerin Amroth, the Appendices - about Galadriel and others, Gandalf's words to Thorin&co. etc.). So, as soon as it was decided to attack (or rather: as late as it was decided) the Council assembled as much strength as they could, and would attack Dol Guldur. Unfortunately for them, Sauron had already learned about that, so he had a back-up plan, that if they come and prove mightier than his forces (which they did), he could easily retreat to Mordor. Sounds logical, doesn't it? But, had it not been for the "devices of Saruman" (whatever it was - spells, machines, or just "plans"?), Sauron would have merrily remained in Dol Guldur (or possibly just moved to Mordor, but Dol Guldur will remain in his hands all the time, without any interruption).

So, I hope it is clear now. In short: Sauron was driven away, i.e. he had to leave Dol Guldur, was forced to do it. However, knowing beforehand about the attack, he prepared himself - of course he would not just disappear, that would have been indeed curious, and besides, there was always a chance that he would actually win the fight against the Council. Also, I doubt he knew "on 13th August at 5:30 AM they will attack", in fact, the Council did not know until very late that they will attack themselves! (It was decided very fast in place.) So, one day Sauron simply looked out of his window and saw the enemies rushing through the forest, and he thought "Ah, so it has come". Therefore, some battle needed to be fought. The other option would be to leave Dol Guldur empty, but when? He could leave on the 13th August at 5:30 AM and it will later be shown that the enemies planned to attack only five months later. Sauron preferred to stay in the place as long as he could, which makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

I have actually a long time ago started a thread touching this topic, I may as well link it to you, if you are interested in the matter: HERE.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I imagine that Sauron did put up a fight, although without the intention of winning. The White Council would feel more at ease perhaps having to fight a battle to oust the Necromancer than just seeing him slip out the back door. The devices of Saruman could've been the explosives that were used in Helms Deep by his army or other siege equipment, perhaps mechanical.

Myself I'm more curious about this phrase: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood" The White Council has an army at it's disposal? And how would this force be made up?

To me, it seems obvious that Saruman was already duplicitous, long forestalling the White Council's attack on Amon Lanc for his personal reasons. Perhaps the 'devices' Saruman used were just as feigned as was Sauron fleeing, and the two had already worked out an 'exit strategy' together. Both were in possession of the palantiri at the time.

As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.

[Rumil]

Hi All,

more speculation on the 'attack' on Dol Guldur here (and links within)-

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1511

From the texts I don't think there's enough evidence to say one way or the other whether a physical attack happened. However, I'm inclined to think that there were Elven troops deployed, together with Saruman's devices and some sort of 'magical' backup from the Wise.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

To me, it seems obvious that Saruman was already duplicitous, long forestalling the White Council's attack on Amon Lanc for his personal reasons. Perhaps the 'devices' Saruman used were just as feigned as was Sauron fleeing, and the two had already worked out an 'exit strategy' together. Both were in possession of the palantiri at the time.

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír. He did not look into it until then! And he did not, for Eru's sake, work together with Sauron! I may jump out of my skin when I hear things like that, sorry, but Saruman was a proud, independant traitor! And if you look just into the Tale of the Years, it will become clear to you. There is this date when Saruman looked into the Palantír, as mentioned above, and there is also the note, I believe, that Saruman's intentions to attack Dol Guldur were to prevent Sauron from searching on the Gladden Fields (before, he wanted to keep him there just for the same reason, in hope to find the Ring if it attempted to get back to its Master).

As far as the phrase "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood", I don't consider this to infer an army; rather, it seems to me more likely the White Council put forth their innate powers to drive Sauron forth, much like Galadriel did at the end of the War of the Ring when she laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur and toppled its tower.

Well yes, but even the end of the War of the Ring involved battles with the Orcs and spiders and whatever was in Mirkwood by that time. So, I am not easy to dismiss the possibility of at least an elven commando being around there. I have to look at Rumil's link yet (thanks for it, by the way!), but at least I am certain in the discussion I linked to in my above post, there was something said about reasons for that.

[skip spence]

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I agree with Legate and Rumil that The White Council would've sent troops to Dol Guldur, and not just sang the walls down. All this is speculation of course but I imagine the force would've consisting of mainly Galadriel's Silvan Elves, supported by Thranduil and perhaps Elrond too. Saruman might have sent men to fight too.

Yes, that sounds plausible - at least if there was somebody, then the Silvan Elves from Lórien (not sure about Thranduil, don't forget that at the same time there has been trouble with the Dragon and Dwarves) and the others, possibly. Though I find the idea of Saruman's men being there absolutely fascinating - if it were to be so (and it is plausible he would have had at least a servant or two with him, if only for that one would carry his books and the other take care of the horses or something like that), just imagine the simple Isengarders being taken and sent into a far and alien land, what more, to fight alongside the Elves! Hm, okay, actually now thinking about it, it sounds a bit unlikely. After all, the times of Last Alliance were long gone and besides, the Men would have been really ill-suited to fight in such an environment like Mirkwood was, which they were not familiar with at all. But still, a nice idea to play with.

And Legate, now thinking about it I remember that thread, because I started a similar one myself (not knowing about the other) which was merged with yours.

Oh yes, actually, true, I recalled something like that. Interesting, it seems as if it were a really long time ago to me...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

One can both flee and fake, and I think Sauron has used this method before: allow the enemy to think that they have struck terror into your poor, weak, pitiful heart, don't let them know how strong you really are, and then only later, show your real power. As honey-tongued a liar as Saruman showed himself to be, he was an amateur compared to Sauron, who managed to convince the King of Numenor that he was truly surrendering to him and was so sufficiently defeated and demoralized that it was safe to take him back to Numenor as a "hostage." It didn't take long before Sauron was able to corrupt Ar-Pharazon and his court, and it wasn't long after "fleeing" Dol Guldur that Sauron openly took up residence in his real stronghold, Barad-dur, and began making trouble on a much grander scale. I'm blanking a bit on some of Sauron's activities in the First Age, but if I'm recalling correctly, he did some "fake fleeing" back then, too. He knows when it's foolish to keep on fighting -- when it's time to employ the maxim "he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day" -- and if he can fake his enemies into thinking he is fleeing because he is near-mortally wounded or vastly overpowered, even better. That would lull them into an at least temporary sense of relief and security, so that they will not be expecting retaliation from him any time in the near future, and thus may be surprised and caught unprepared when it comes.

My nickel's worth, at any rate.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

No, please, this is nonsense. Saruman had no real connection to Sauron until the end of the millenium, when he dared to look into the Palantír.

Nonsense? Nonsense! Unfactual perhaps, reaching maybe, but nonsense? Pfffttt! I offered a perfectly good conspiracy theory, and like any good conspiratorial illuminator I eschewed actually looking up silly little points as to who did what with whom and when or where, and glossed over anyone's actual intentions. It's not the facts that make good propaganda, its the juicy story! Geeze, Leggy, get with the program!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

One can both flee and fake, and I think Sauron has used this method before: allow the enemy to think that they have struck terror into your poor, weak, pitiful heart, don't let them know how strong you really are, and then only later, show your real power.

Thanks everyone for their posts.

I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc?

Something just doesn't sit right.

And I'm going to have to read more about the Army of the White Council; who were they and what were they doing during the battle of the Five armies (or do I have my history mixed up?)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc?

Something just doesn't sit right.

At least from my part, you got almost all I wanted to say in my post, except for one thing I was desperately trying to explain there, although the message was hard to convey And that concerned exactly this question you are putting up.

Simply: It was by the device of Saruman that Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur. He deserves the credit, I think we can imagine it the way that had not Saruman been present, Sauron would have remained in Dol Guldur. Is what I have in mind clear enough from what I say? Had Sauron not been driven out of Dol Guldur, he would have caused mischief in Mirkwood all the time. This way, we can guess his forces in the North were largely diminished and also, during the Watchful Peace he could not cause more mischief in the North.

And I'm going to have to read more about the Army of the White Council; who were they and what were they doing during the battle of the Five armies (or do I have my history mixed up?)?

Hmm, I think you are maybe getting a bit confused from some of the talk here (or I am confused about you). There was no "Army of the White Council" as an existing executive unit, the Council were, as you surely know, the "Wise" like Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond etc. and that was all. All the military power they had at their disposition were the native people of the realms they ruled (or eventually, some allies they could ask). This is why I am inclined to think that for example some Elves from Lothlórien may have aided the strike against Dol Guldur. But not much else. There was no reason for the Elves of Lórien, otherwise rather withdrawn and remaining inside their borders, to go all the length of the world into the Battle of the Five Armies, which did not concern them at all. The Dragon did not concern them in the first place when he was still alive, why should he concern them any more after he died. Likewise, the Elves of Rivendell stayed in Rivendell. It would have been quite of an effort to assemble an army and march over the mountains and the forest. Likewise Saruman, why should he hurry up there (and he probably didn't have any decent army by then yet anyway). Which brings me to the main point - what would have been the reasons for these armies to intervene in the first place. All the other armies came to Erebor because they wanted a share of profit from the Dragon's treasure. I don't see Elrond or Galadriel wishing to go there to grab their piece of gold (placing aside the obstacles of the journey itself), and for Saruman, I think the treasure was not as interesting to him by itself, unless he'd presume to find some Rings there, or such... So, really no reason for the White Council to interfere into the Battle at all (bear in mind that neither of the sides - except for the Goblins - knew that the battle is going to take place until the Goblins arrived there!).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Simply: It was by the device of Saruman that Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur. He deserves the credit, I think we can imagine it the way that had not Saruman been present, Sauron would have remained in Dol Guldur. Is what I have in mind clear enough from what I say? Had Sauron not been driven out of Dol Guldur, he would have caused mischief in Mirkwood all the time. This way, we can guess his forces in the North were largely diminished and also, during the Watchful Peace he could not cause more mischief in the North.

I'm questioning not your replies, but the original text itself and how I'm reading it, which may be a completely distorted thing.

Hmm, I think you are maybe getting a bit confused from some of the talk here (or I am confused about you). There was no "Army of the White Council" as an existing executive unit, the Council were, as you surely know, the "Wise" like Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond etc. and that was all.

Sorry; I was being facetious regarding the 'Grand Army of the Republic.'

All the military power they had at their disposition were the native people of the realms they ruled (or eventually, some allies they could ask). This is why I am inclined to think that for example some Elves from Lothlórien may have aided the strike against Dol Guldur. But not much else. There was no reason for the Elves of Lórien, otherwise rather withdrawn and remaining inside their borders, to go all the length of the world into the Battle of the Five Armies, which did not concern them at all.

I guess that Thranduil found easier picking North than South, and when later Legolas recounts the escape of Gollum and about how his folk do not tread too closely to Dol Guldur, we get more of the picture.

Okay, so I'm punting. What grand stratagem or device does anyone think Saruman discovered that aided in the fumigating of the Necromancer's abode?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

I'm questioning not your replies, but the original text itself and how I'm reading it, which may be a completely distorted thing.

I know, and I am offering you my interpretation on how to read it. If you do not think it is one you will go with, you can think of another one, or remain undecided and doubtful.

Okay, so I'm punting. What grand stratagem or device does anyone think Saruman discovered that aided in the fumigating of the Necromancer's abode?

I have offered some ideas on that on the thread I mentioned above, here... I don't think people on the thread said much more on this particular topic, but I certainly find it an interesting one.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

I get that Sauron was ready to move, yet only moved when pushed. However, it seems that Gandalf, being one of the Wise, doesn't incorporate this knowledge when making statement #2. If he really thought that Sauron was forced into feigning fleeing, then why does he credit Saruman so much, especially after spending a few nights on the roof of Orthanc?

Something just doesn't sit right.

Entirely possible. I think I want to go read the entire section and make sure everything is in context before I ponder this some more (a major undertaking at the moment, since the books were returned to their shelf in my office, which once again is in a nearly impassable state). What it may be in the long run is not a flaw in Gandalf's thinking, but a flaw in the writing. Heaven knows I've read plenty of books in which such an error remained through many revisions and edits, and some of them cannot really be reconciled to the rest of the story. Meaning the mistake, if there is one, may not be Gandalf's, but Tolkien's and his various editors.

About an "army" of the Wise, though.... I don't believe Tolkien intended for the reader to believe that they actually had a standing militia. When I get back to that bookshelf, I believe I shall go rooting through the Letters as well. May shed some light on it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Feigned fleeing or farciful forestalling?

Foolishly fudging, with fantastical forewarning freakishly floundered.

*curtsies*

[The Might]

Speculating on the second quote speaking of "some weapons that would drive back the Nine" I'd actually rather think of his voice as a possibility as well:

Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgûl did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.

Perhaps some types of mind-controlling devices or something like that and not necessarily the explosives seen at Helm's Deep. Just a thought of course...

[Morthoron]

Based on what I have perused thus far, I am unconvinced that there was some sort of standing army that drove Sauron from Dol Guldur. The absence of an actual siege and breaking of the towers (which did not occur until Galadriel returned there at the end of the War of the Ring), and Saruman being relied on to supply his devices, indicates (to me, anyway) that the White Council's singular mission was to force Sauron to flee, and not to invest or besiege Amon Lanc.

The questions remain, if the White Council did indeed have an invasion force, why did they not topple the topless towers and lay bare the pits of Dol Guldur, and thus cleanse that loathsome place? Why leave such a scar on the land that years later Legolas and his kin would find it nearly unbearable to pass it by? Why not destroy it then and there so that it could not be remanned (or re-orced perhaps) with evil creatures, as it was during the War of the Ring? Rule number one in warfare regarding capturing an enemy stronghold is to either repopulate it with your own forces, or destroy it so it cannot be used again.

To me, logic dictates that the White Council did not have a strong numerical force for investment.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think perhaps that the use of the word "devices" should be considered. It doesn't necessarily mean a gadget or a weapon; it can mean a technique, means, or even a plan. As Saruman had most thoroughly studied the arts of the Enemy (possibly even having a sort of inside track on things because of their mutual origin as Maiar of Aule), the Council may have deferred to his wisdom in such matters and implemented his plan for a confrontation with "the Necromancer." It may or may not have included such things as his "blasting fire" (I tend to think that if it did, it was used minimally, since Dol Guldur does not appear to have suffered significant physical damage from the attack). If they came at Sauron with enough non-physical power to make him fear that they might actually succeed in overwhelming him and taking him prisoner, I doubt he'd have much compunction about deserting his minions and hieing himself back to the safety of his much greater stronghold in Mordor.

Just an early morning thought. Still haven't gotten to the books....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

the White Council's singular mission was to force Sauron to flee, and not to invest or besiege Amon Lanc.

That's for the second time. Stop that! It scares me always when I see it in the text...

The questions remain, if the White Council did indeed have an invasion force, why did they not topple the topless towers and lay bare the pits of Dol Guldur, and thus cleanse that loathsome place? Why leave such a scar on the land that years later Legolas and his kin would find it nearly unbearable to pass it by? Why not destroy it then and there so that it could not be remanned (or re-orced perhaps) with evil creatures, as it was during the War of the Ring? Rule number one in warfare regarding capturing an enemy stronghold is to either repopulate it with your own forces, or destroy it so it cannot be used again.

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think perhaps that the use of the word "devices" should be considered. It doesn't necessarily mean a gadget or a weapon; it can mean a technique, means, or even a plan.

Yes, that's exactly what I said in the post I linked above, too... the point about Dol Guldur not being actually destroyed would support a different means of driving Sauron away. However, it also does not rule out the blasting fire completely - as in Helm's Deep, they could have just blown up a bit of a wall to get inside (which was repaired later when Sauron re-occupied the place). But I find it unlikely also for the question how would the Elves look on such a "machine of terror" to be used.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Just *how* does Elrond maintain his Wise card? Wasn't he the one at the Council that whined about not unmaking Barad-dur and the Ring? Maybe he should address the Tower in his own back yard before talking about the one of Isildur's kin/ken. No wonder Boromir was so put out!

Yes, that's exactly what I said in the post I linked above, too... the point about Dol Guldur not being actually destroyed would support a different means of driving Sauron away. However, it also does not rule out the blasting fire completely - as in Helm's Deep, they could have just blown up a bit of a wall to get inside (which was repaired later when Sauron re-occupied the place). But I find it unlikely also for the question how would the Elves look on such a "machine of terror" to be used.

Can't be blasting fire, as it's not used again by the White. And one would think that Aragorn the Aged would have remembered/remarked how it was used to breach the walls of Dol Guldur when he sees it again at Helm's Deep.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

And one would think that Aragorn the Aged would have remembered/remarked how it was used to breach the walls of Dol Guldur when he sees it again at Helm's Deep.

I hope you are not suggesting that Aragorn was there in Dol Guldur. Putting aside that he never was there, he was ten years old when the attack took place...

[Boromir88]

Can't be blasting fire, as it's not used again by the White. And one would think that Aragorn the Aged would have remembered/remarked how it was used to breach the walls of Dol Guldur when he sees it again at Helm's Deep.~alatar

Well I don't know if it necessarily has to be "blasting fire" Gandalf is talking about, it could just be some sort of fiery device like Sauron used against Gondor...I could be mistaken, as my memory is a bit vague, but isn't there something about "burning liquid" that Sauron uses?

Because while Gandalf says:

It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.

This could be a general statement of Gandalf saying Sauron was forced to flee, because of Saruman's devices. It doesn't necessarily mean Saruman physically encountered Sauron and drove him off with a special weapon. We know that's not Sauron's style of leading, he sits in the back (cozy in a nice, big tower):

Denethor laughed bitterly. "Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise,...~The Siege of Gondor

Also, Gandalf makes mention that his weapons would have possibly driven back the Nine...isn't fire one of their fears? Let's not forget in Unfinished Tales, when the Witch-King came asking for information, Saruman was able to turn him away and keep his true thoughts hidden (at least from the Wikki)...I don't remember if there's any mentioning of a weapon that he used other than his persuasive abilities though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I could be mistaken, as my memory is a bit vague, but isn't there something about "burning liquid" that Sauron uses?

That was Saruman, too. When the Ents attacked Isengard, huh, and now I don't know what the name of the Ent was in English, something with a beech tree though probably, was hit by this "liquid fire" and Merry or Pippin says that it was a horrible sight.

We know that's not Sauron's style of leading, he sits in the back (cozy in a nice, big tower):

Hey, that's a very good point - well thought!

Also, Gandalf makes mention that his weapons would have possibly driven back the Nine...isn't fire one of their fears? Let's not forget in Unfinished Tales, when the Witch-King came asking for information, Saruman was able to turn him away and keep his true thoughts hidden (at least from the Wikki)...I don't remember if there's any mentioning of a weapon that he used other than his persuasive abilities though.

No, nothing beside his voice and the things he does with it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's for the second time. Stop that! It scares me always when I see it in the text...

And yet, I've seen nothing you've offered thus far to refute it, save the same conjecture I am using; therefore, I have no inclination to 'stop it' (particularly since it irritates you so ). For instance....

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Indeed, but these rules don't apply always in M-E, and I actually find it pretty Middle-Earthish to drive Sauron away and not to tear down the walls. It's a typical M-E mistake, something like that the Ring should have been destroyed after Sauron was killed, and so on. People in M-E very often make the mistake of getting rid of the "surface" problem, while not destroying the "roots". Thus, I find leaving Dol Guldur's fortress alone as a veeery classic mistake which later showed to be rather a problem.

Hmmm...but why then did Galadriel deem it so important to throw down the towers of Dol Guldur after Sauron's demise? Likewise, Elessar had Minas Morgul utterly destroyed after Sauron and the WiKi were long gone. Why the necessity after the fact? The importance of such a demolition was just as crucial prior to Sauron's defeat, if not more so, don't you think?

Further back in M-e history, Utumno and Angband were both purposely destroyed in separate wars (not as systematically as one would like, of course, because Angband had to be reduced twice). But one would think a scholarly loremaster such as Elrond or a long-lived Noldo like Galadriel would insist on such destruction as a matter of course, based on previous experiences of their race, unless their primary concern was to drive Sauron off, as it would seem unlikely and naive if they believed he could actually be utterly destroyed, even with Saruman's shiny new devices. Therefore, it is evident to me the White Council did not have a legion of Elves storming the ramparts (the same mythical army that, of course, saved Helm's Deep).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I hope you are not suggesting that Aragorn was there in Dol Guldur. Putting aside that he never was there, he was ten years old when the attack took place...

Surely he attended the 'we sent Sauron running' ball and singsongfeast, or at least got the t-shirt.

My foster-father went to Dol Guldur and all I got was this T-shirt.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

And yet, I've seen nothing you've offered thus far to refute it, save the same conjecture I am using; therefore, I have no inclination to 'stop it' (particularly since it irritates you so). For instance....

Hmmm...but why then did Galadriel deem it so important to throw down the towers of Dol Guldur after Sauron's demise? Likewise, Elessar had Minas Morgul utterly destroyed after Sauron and the WiKi were long gone. Why the necessity after the fact? The importance of such a demolition was just as crucial prior to Sauron's defeat, if not more so, don't you think?

Further back in M-e history, Utumno and Angband were both purposely destroyed in separate wars (not as systematically as one would like, of course, because Angband had to be reduced twice).

Yes: this is once again the very same point I meant with Dol Guldur! Utumno was destroyed, but the deepest pits of Angband were not; thus, the evil was allowed to remain there and multiply again, resp. wait for Morgoth's return. The same with Dol Guldur. The analogy is perfect. Mistakes, mistakes, mistakes, the typical mistakes going around all the time.

And as for the first question - why after: with Dol Guldur, Galadriel has been already warned by the past mistake, so she decided to "lay bare all pits", as it is written, and destroy the fortress in Southern Mirkwood - who knows, what if there remained a "Balrog" (whatever) hidden beneath it and after a few years in the Fourth Age, it returned? Or, such a fortress would have been tempting for some Fourth-Age-sorceror to take residence in. No, this place had to be cleansed, and also for the safety of the Elves (no more spiders!), and also so that they could return to Amon Lanc

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes: this is once again the very same point I meant with Dol Guldur! Utumno was destroyed, but the deepest pits of Angband were not; thus, the evil was allowed to remain there and multiply again, resp. wait for Morgoth's return. The same with Dol Guldur. The analogy is perfect. Mistakes, mistakes, mistakes, the typical mistakes going around all the time.

Yes, the deepest pits of Angband remained, but there was a concerted effort to destroy the edifice. The Valar didn't just leave without doing a cursory bit of demolition. The Valar's bad habit was doing everything half-assed.

Hmmm...and then there is Galadriel. She seems to have escaped the multitude of mistakes made by her more 'hasty' counterparts within the Noldor race: she spurns Feanor; she eschews the violence and murder rampant in the Kin Slaying, yet still follows her objective of finding greater realms to rule; she ingratiates herself to Melian and learns wisdom in Doriath when most other Noldor are forbidden to enter the Girdled Realm; she sees through Annatar's disguise and rejects him, whereas Celebrimbor greedily accepts the veiled Sauron; she welcomes Gandalf and wisely puts him ahead of Saruman in council; she rejects the Ring even when it is offered to her freely.

All this seeming wisdom, savvy and common sense, and yet she makes such a glaring error? And both Gandalf and Elrond with her on the White Council -- supposed wisdom personified in Middle-earth -- and not enough sense between them to destroy Dol Guldur when it has been overrun by an army?

As Shakespeare would say, 'Ah, there's the rub!' I reiterate, there was no army, Dol Guldur was not overrun and controlled by the White Council, and their only objective at the time was to destroy Sauron if they could, or at least drive him in any case. That being done, they did not have the force to destroy Amon Lanc, and they left. Only when Galadriel and Celeborn actually brought their army from Lorien was Galadriel able to destroy Dol Guldur.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Yes, the deepest pits of Angband remained, but there was a concerted effort to destroy the edifice. The Valar didn't just leave without doing a cursory bit of demolition. The Valar's bad habit was doing everything half-assed.

Hmmm...and then there is Galadriel. She seems to have escaped the multitude of mistakes made by her more 'hasty' counterparts within the Noldor race: she spurns Feanor; she eschews the violence and murder rampant in the Kin Slaying, yet still follows her objective of finding greater realms to rule; she ingratiates herself to Melian and learns wisdom in Doriath when most other Noldor are forbidden to enter the Girdled Realm; she sees through Annatar's disguise and rejects him, whereas Celebrimbor greedily accepts the veiled Sauron; she welcomes Gandalf and wisely puts him ahead of Saruman in council; she rejects the Ring even when it is offered to her freely.

All this seeming wisdom, savvy and common sense, and yet she makes such a glaring error? And both Gandalf and Elrond with her on the White Council -- supposed wisdom personified in Middle-earth -- and not enough sense between them to destroy Dol Guldur when it has been overrun by an army?

To all this I say only: Yes, from my part, yes, not enough sense. Even Gandalf and Galadriel could not persuade the Council to attack Dol Guldur earlier, as we are reminded of (and the history would have taken a very different course). I can also imagine Gandalf was in a hurry to Erebor when the deed was done, Saruman did not perhaps get his hands dirty, and Galadriel - who knows. Why couldn't she just have "torn down its walls and laid bare its pits"? I am pretty sure even after the War of the Ring, she did it by herself, not with the help of Elven sappers and explosives. No, for some reason - we don't know why - she simply didn't do that even then. But this thing, for me, is not an evidence for whether the Council had or whether it had not any army with them there. So,

As Shakespeare would say, 'Ah, there's the rub!' I reiterate, there was no army, Dol Guldur was not overrun and controlled by the White Council

Certainly not controlled, that would be pretty overstretching it, but not destroyed either, right. It's a similar course of events as in Mordor's border forts, when "the evil crept out of Gorgoroth" and overtook the garrison of Narchost, Carchost and the Tower of Cirith Ungol - and later, Minas Morgul itself. (Only with the difference that I doubt there were any Elves left in Dol Guldur to guard it, that sounds pretty weird - just imagine it. The evil just returned into an empty fortress, which was left there.) But I believe, in contrary to you, that the Council HAD theoretically the power do destroy Dol Guldur, only they simply didn't do it. Or maybe they did not have the power right at the moment they came there (being exhausted from the battle, the wizards using all their spell slots... ), but they still had plenty time to do it "later", after everybody had time, but they simply, as it goes, procrastinated to the point that Sauron's forces actually returned.

Still, the point of it is: I don't see the non-destruction of Dol Guldur as an argument for the assumption that there was no army there. In all honesty, even a commando of a hundred Wood Elves would have a problem with destroying the walls of Dol Guldur - what would they do, shoot at the bricks with arrows?

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Methinks that it was more like the oft-maligned Neville Chamberlain deal where the White Council came back with a promise from Sauron that he would pack up and go and then put the place up for sale or rent. The base master of lies probably got the Council on the hook for moving expenses.

Another one of Elrond's 'fruitless victories.'

However it happened, Gandalf still for a time believed that Sauron was driven out by Saruman (even though Sauron planned to leave anyway).

[skip spence]

In all honesty, this whole Dol Gúldur episode makes little sense, army or no army. I'm leaning towards the army alternative though (Celeborn and Elrond's men, supported by Saruman's devises, whatever those may be) as to me it's more plausable. If there were no army, are we then to believe that Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Elrond trekked across Middle Earth all by themselves to oust Sauron the Great from his feared stronghold, no doubt defended by Orcs and Eru knows what? That seems a tall order to me.

Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Even if it were so and they managed to drive Sauron out (or at least, believing it), how could this be possible without actually conquering the fortress? A few wizards and Elves, albeit very powerful, can hardly besiege and starve out the fortress. Why would Sauron run (or: how could he successfully feign to run) if he was safe behind the walls of his Stronghold? And why wait with driving him out if they thought they could manage it alone without much effort or bloodshed (which they must have if they went there alone)? The main reason for waiting would be not wanting to fight a hard battle incurring heavy casualties no matter the outcome if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

Perhaps they built a large, wooden badger.

[alatar]

Just to add a little history regarding Dol Guldur, find below a list of entries from the LotR Appendix B - Third Age:

• 1050- About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood.

• 1100 - The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgul.

• 2060 - The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.

• 2063 - Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East.

• 2460 - Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur.

• 2850 - Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's heir.

• 2851 - The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.

• 2941 - The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.

• 2951 - Sauron sends three of the Nazgul to reoccupy Dol Guldur.

• 3019 - Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur...and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led a host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its wall and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

About time! So if I'm doing my math right, for 1919 years, give or take, Dol Guldur was occupied except for 10 of those years when Sauron feinted. Reading the Appendix, do you know how much happened in those almost 2,000 years?

How much better had Galadriel stepped across the River a few years sooner.