We are Warriors of the Shire!?

An amusing comment is used by Pippin in the game BFME, "We are Warriors of the Shire!". In relation to the book, beyond the obvious Hobbits like Frodo and Co., who are these warriors? Hobbits are generally too timid and slow to be such warriors, yet the likes of Pippin ended up being worthy of being a Hobbit Prince in the eyes of the men of Gondor. Are there any others in the Shire that could step up to this mantle?

[Inziladun]

If I recall ROTK correctly, the reason the Gondorians referred to Pippin as "The Prince of the Halflings" was simply due to rumours that sprang up around him. Many of the inhabitants of Minas Tirith had likely never heard of Hobbits (or Halflings) before, and those that had knew them only as a childish myth or legend. With the apprehension prevalent in the city at that time, it was only natural for wishful thinking to elevate Pippin in their eyes to the status of a leader of a Halfling army that would stand with them against Mordor. It had nothing to do with any respect or fear of his combat prowess.
As for other Hobbits being warriors, that depends on what you mean by the word. If you are wondering if they would ever become warlike, or gain a love of battle for its own sake, I find that extremely unlikely, barring some drastic change in their way of life that required them to fight constantly for many years to stay alive.
If you are asking which Hobbits would be capable of fighting at need, though they loathed having to do so, I would say nearly all of them. Hundreds fought to expel Saruman's Men from the Shire, then went back to their peaceful lives after the job was done.

[Peregrin Took]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If I recall ROTK correctly, the reason the Gondorians referred to Pippin as "The Prince of the Halflings" was simply due to rumours that sprang up around him...With the apprehension prevalent in the city at that time, it was only natural for wishful thinking to elevate Pippin in their eyes to the status of a leader of a Halfling army that would stand with them against Mordor. It had nothing to do with any respect or fear of his combat prowess.

I don't think anybody in Gondor was looking forward to relief from a hobbit army - tuckborough.net says it nicely:


Ernil i Pheriannath (Prince of the Halflings):
He was thought to be a person of high rank because he was in the company of Gandalf and because he used the familiar form of address at all times, as was customary in the Shire, even when speaking to Denethor, the Steward of Gondor. (RotK: "Minas Tirith," p. 41; Appendix F of LotR, p. 411)

I believe that any hobbit in any fashion could be a "warrior" in different senses of the word. Frodo, the most merciful of the bunch, was a warrior in his own right. You do not have to be physically violent to be a warrior. But in the context that the BFME Pip used the term sounds like it meant as an actual warrior - in which Pippin was, having fought in many overwhelming battles. Merry and Sam were also. In fact, I would say all the hobbits that were involved with ousting Saruman from the Shire were all warriors. Hobbits didn't like war, and I don't think Pippin or any other hobbit would ever say that they did, or claim to be your typical "warrior", like Boromir, for example. The hobbits fought - they were warriors, and they could do it again - if provoked, although it is not their nature.

[Inziladun]

I don't think anybody in Gondor was looking forward to relief from a hobbit army - tuckborough.net says it nicely:


Ernil i Pheriannath (Prince of the Halflings):
He was thought to be a person of high rank because he was in the company of Gandalf and because he used the familiar form of address at all times, as was customary in the Shire, even when speaking to Denethor, the Steward of Gondor. (RotK: "Minas Tirith," p. 41; Appendix F of LotR, p. 411)

I'm sure those observations did contribute to that perception by some of those in Minas Tirth, which led to the wild rumours flying about the city. My point was that I don't think it was due to any widespread belief that Pippin was himself a great warrior. Beregond told him:

I thought it was the whim of our lord to take him a noble page, after the manner of the kings of old, they say.

It was only after speaking with Pippin and learning of some of his experiences that Beregond gained some respect for him.

I believe that any hobbit in any fashion could be a "warrior" in different senses of the word. Frodo, the most merciful of the bunch, was a warrior in his own right. You do not have to be physically violent to be a warrior. But in the context that the BFME Pip used the term sounds like it meant as an actual warrior - in which Pippin was, having fought in many overwhelming battles.

I must confess ignorance as to what "BFME" actually is, unless it is "Battle for Middle-Earth"? I think I recall seeing a computer game like that before, though I've never played it.
As to the rest of your post, I quite agree.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mansun

An amusing comment is used by Pippin in the game BFME, "We are Warriors of the Shire!". In relation to the book, beyond the obvious Hobbits like Frodo and Co., who are these warriors? Hobbits are generally too timid and slow to be such warriors, yet the likes of Pippin ended up being worthy of being a Hobbit Prince in the eyes of the men of Gondor. Are there any others in the Shire that could step up to this mantle?

While Hobbits are not warlike and never fought amongst themselves (so the Prologue tells us), Hobbits do not have a pacifist history; look at the story of the Bonfire Glade for example, or The Battle of Greenfields. They are curiously tough. And we are told,

Originally Posted by Prologue, LotR

Though slow to quarrel, and for sport killing nothing that lived, they were doughty at bay, and atneed could still handle arms. They shot well with the bow, for they were keen-eyed and sure at the mark. Not only with bows and arrows. If any Hobbit stooped to pick up a stone, it was well to get quickly under cover, as all trespassing beasts knew very well.

David did beat Goliath with a stone, remember.

But more significant than this toughness is the nature of their society. While not classless, The Shire tends not to have highly specified, differentiated labour groups. It is still largely an agrarian form of social organization, even with its veneer of Edwardian customs (sans the fox hunts). And unlike the English Empire, The Shire is still settling its own uninhabited land and territories. Such an agrarian society could not financially support and maintain an armed elite trained and dedicated solely to warfare. In fact, it even lacks a formal governing organisation.

Originally Posted by Prologue

The Shire at this time had hardly any 'government.' Families for the most part managed their own affairs. Growing food and eating it occupied most of their time. . . . The Shirrifs was the name that the Hobbits gave to their police, or the nearest equivalent that they possessed. They had, of course, no uniforms (such things being quite unknown), only a feather in their caps; and they were in practice rather haywards than policemen, more concerned with the strayings of beasts than of people.

It is, indeed, a form of fantasy social organisation, but it is one which looks much like agrarian societies which rely upon all able bodied men to accept a call to arms when necessary.

Not unlike, one might say, the farmers and sons of farmers who took up the call and led the fight at Vimy Ridge, and The Battle of Hill 70, and Ypres, who proved so much more staltwart than their pig-headed military commanders from long lines of military training.

[Peregrin Took]

Inziladun, although I haven't played it, "BFME" is like you guessed - Battle for Middle-earth...it's a PC game. I know it's largely concerned with armies and fighting, but I don't know what else it encompasses. Anybody care to enlighten us?

I was just pointing out that, because the men of Gondor thought little of hobbits (as they only knew them from, like you said, childish myths, etc.), Pippin's arrival was a shock, but we're told that it was mainly his company with Gandalf that laid claim to the name "Prince of the Halflings". I was agreeing that the Gondorian's didn't view Pip as a great warrior. If anything, they probably laughed at the thought of fighting hobbits. I was disagreeing with this statement:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

With the apprehension prevalent in the city at that time, it was only natural for wishful thinking to elevate Pippin in their eyes to the status of a leader of a Halfling army that would stand with them against Mordor.

There's no evidence, to my knowledge, that anybody in Gondor actually believed that by Pippin's arrival a hobbit army would help them defeat Sauron. Or am I reading your words wrong? Because after you say:

It had nothing to do with any respect or fear of his combat prowess.

Which is correct!

[skip spence]

I'd hate to turn this into another who'd beat who thread but Hobbits were not capable warriors, even at need. For this, they are simply too small and untrained. Sure they were tougher than they looked and managed to beat and chase away the Men of Saruman, but that was mainly thanks to Pippin and Merry's clever ambush, their superior numbers and, last but not least, their opponents' underestimation of them. A small number of well trained and armed men would've made mincemeat of the Hobbits (disregarding the option of guerilla warfare).

[Inziladun]

Peregrin Took, we seem to mostly agree here. Pippin's being called "Prince of the Halflings" likely was in large part due to his apparent friendship with Gandalf and his audience with Denethor. I was simply positing that the atmosphere of anxiety in Minas Tirith contributed to that initial perception of him as a leader of Halflings who would help Gondor with armed force. Had they not been on the brink of war, I wonder if they would have been so quick to make that assumption. As you say, by Pippin's physical appearance alone many would laugh or take Beregond's view. But in their desperate situation they would certainly have taken all the help they could get, and I doubt they would have laughed if they really had been offered five thousand swords, Halflings or not.
Mansun's original post seemed to suggest that it was Pippin's "warrior" status that was the reason for the title Pippin was initially given by some of the people. I was disagreeing with that premise and putting forth other explanations, as you did also.

There is no reason to suggest that, given Frodo and Co. were plucked from the quiet Shire, and gradually transformed into warriors on their fraught with danger quests, that other Hobbits from the Shire could not do likewise. Hobbits, if trained with the appropriate tools and experience, could have played a significant part in the war against Sauron if called upon by Gondor. They may be of no use against trolls and Nazgul, but they could have been employed as spies of the lands, as able archers, and as messengers.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Hobbits were not capable warriors, even at need.

On the most part yes, that is true. And nne are great warriors. I'm sure even Bandobras "Bullroarer" Took and his men couldn't kill a troll.