Tol-in-Gaurhoth LI: The Pain of Wargs

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The Warg Elders had gathered in their hidden location, a place that has remained undiscovered by Men to this day. Some Elvish scholars had claimed that it disappeared in the ruin of Beleriand; other adventurers sought it at the expense of all their days, in vain, far in the East of Middle-earth. It was never found, but the tales of happenings therein had been received by friends of Wargs, and so comes this story.

The Elders were leaders of Wargs. Great in wisdom and honour, they guided their kin as parents. Councils were held in their sanctuary in times of importance, and now a seminal gathering was demanded, as the so-called War of Wrath was coming to Middle-earth. The part of the Wargs in the war and its aftermath would be pivotal.

These Wargs were named in the traditions of their time and place, which has not been well-studied by our contemporaries. Thus, the names of the Wargs mentioned are renderings of the true names, and phonologically altered to suit the inferior human tongue.

Now, there was one, whom we shall call Eomer of the Rohirrim, who held great stock in ancient prophecies. As it should happen, now was the time for a realisation of one. For years leading up to the council, he had warned his followers that treachery was afoot, and exasperated his fellows with pleas for caution. His family had given to him a tale of deceit which had always worried him, a tale of murder and the death of Wargs, wrought by such powerful foes. Eomer thought the council a terrible idea at this time, and tried to make his friends believe, but the Wargs had seen prophecies come and go without incident, and saw not why they should worry about the power of any potential enemies. For who is more powerful than the Warg?



Please do not post on this thread yet.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

He was almost giddy as the night crept nearer. In pairs they come! he would repeat. Two to spill blood on the sacred ground! They bring terror and death. One night, a second and yea! a third, of this I know. But what follows! Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies! Their war beats and tramples us, and brings about that dread circumstance: the pain of Wargs is here. Two amoral forces, to subvert all others. The twain will come, at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels. The pain of Wargs is the only certainty.

Please do not post on this thread yet.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Night 1 is starting now. The two enemies of Wargs may talk and scheme, and the one gifted Warg may utilise its power. There is no need for the other gifted Warg to do aught this night.

Day 1 will begin Monday 11PM (GMT+1).

Remember to turn your profile to invisible.



Please do not post on this thread yet.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The Wargs appeared from their quarters to begin their discussions. They were eager to decide upon the path the Wargs should take, during and after the war. It was clear that the world was to be greatly changed. So to, though, was their traditional council. A trail of blood led from the centre of their hallowed stone circle to the easterly chambers.

At the end of the trail lay Eomer, torn to shreds on the ground. The walls of his room were decorated with scratches, for he had marked his final surroundings with the reflections of his panicked mind. They told of the prophecy he would recite repeatedly. Chilling prose, of which the Elders were familiar with. Some new scraps of information were among the bleak words, indications of special Wargs, with hidden powers: one to see the truth , and one to protect the innocent. But again the pairs, and again the pairs, who would come to bring murder…

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Kitanna
Kath
Nogrod
Gwathagor
Shastanis Althreduin
SamwiseGamgee
Brinniel
Mithalwen
Diamond
Groin Redbeard
Gollum The Great
Rune Son of Bjarne
Gaunt

Day 1 has begun. Decide who to lynch. There will be no double-lynches. In the event of a tie, the first player to reach the necessary number of votes will be killed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right. It's late, but this be a first post (maybe...), so I will do it and go to bed.

What do we know. There's 15 of us. Two are some Gifteds, possibly a Seer and maybe either a Ranger or a Hunter-like fella (if not really just simple Ranger or Hunter); and two are awful terrrible trrraitors, wuhurrrahahahrrr... *add Wargish curses*

What does it mean? Absolutely nothing. Which is exactly what these traitors are going to become, wuhurrahahahahrrr... (I started to kinda like that word... if you can call it a word).

What else? Nothing. Let us add some rant. Yada, yada, I haven't played with some people at all, yada, yada, so I don't know what to expect from them, and I will be probably rather careful with judging them until I get some general idea, although now thinking of that, I haven't played for a while, so maybe I will have to refresh my thoughts on everyone, so maybe no one has advantage over the others.

What more, maybe it's actually good. I have been cleaned of prejudices... ...maybe



That would be it from me for now (unless somebody crossposted with me and said something interesting and replyworthy). Good night, and good Day.

[Thinlómien]

I'm here even though it's past midnight and I have school tomorrow. Obvious conclusion: I'm either wolf or gifted if I'm that enthusiatic about this game. (Real conclusion: I have been distracted from going to sleep this far. Obvious interpretation: I have been sending wolf PMs. Real interpretation: I'm easily distracted by MSN and especially certain people... Obvious summary: I must be something special as I'm this weird. Real summary: I'm secretly tried. Ok I'll stop! That was just a bit hypnotic...)

What else? I'm slightly baffled by this setting. So, we have a seer and a ranger, that much is clear. And then we now have two wolves, right? And two more will come after Night3? Hmmm... makes me wonder how it will affect the dynamics of this game... We will have four wolves, which is not nice, and on top of that, we will have less evidence about two of them... not good at all. But on the other hand, if we're extra smart and lucky, we can win this game very easily... A nice challenge, I'd say.


edit: xed with Legate

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

What do we know. There's 15 of us. Two are some Gifteds, possibly a Seer and maybe either a Ranger or a Hunter-like fella (if not really just simple Ranger or Hunter); and two are awful terrrible trrraitors, wuhurrrahahahrrr... *add Wargish curses*

What else? Nothing. Let us add some rant. Yada, yada, I haven't played with some people at all, yada, yada, so I don't know what to expect from them, and I will be probably rather careful with judging them until I get some general idea, although now thinking of that, I haven't played for a while, so maybe I will have to refresh my thoughts on everyone, so maybe no one has advantage over the others.

What more, maybe it's actually good. I have been cleaned of prejudices... ...maybe

Maybe. . . There is plenty of people here I have never experienced in this kind of situation before, but I doubt that I will be rid of prejudices as I have experienced them in other situations and that will most likely have some influence on me.

At least on this, the first day after blood have been spilled!

You pretty much listed the most likely scenarios about the gifted, of course they could have some mystirious powers that we have not heard of, but that would be suprising indeed.

Anyways I shall stick around for a short while before resting.

[Thinlómien]

Yes, the party is most interesting. I'm looking forward to playing with Gollum and Gaunt - it's always interesting to see new faces (or snouts ). And it has probably been years (in plural) since I last played with Samwise, so that's going to be interesting too... and all in all this mix is not maybe the most common of all. Yes, this should be interesting, whatever happens.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I lied. I am posting yet another one. Although I didn't cross-post with anyone, I waited a little. Well, okay, I have not waited... I have been distracted... okay, whatever, let's stop that and post.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What else? I'm slightly baffled by this setting. So, we have a seer and a ranger, that much is clear. And then we now have two wolves, right? And two more will come after Night3? Hmmm... makes me wonder how it will affect the dynamics of this game... We will have four wolves, which is not nice, and on top of that, we will have less evidence about two of them... not good at all. But on the other hand, if we're extra smart and lucky, we can win this game very easily... A nice challenge, I'd say.

Okay, I am not good in deciphering these prophecy things, I really didn't get it, probably. Now when reading it, it makes sense. Okay, so do you (everyone) think this is how it's going to be? (Now I don't want to start debate about it, I just want confirmation, or some objection or whatever.) Two nassty monstersss now (ah, sorry... wargs don't hiss. I mistook it with something else), and if we don't get them, two more later? Actually it sounds good, even for a balance. (I originally thought we have just two Wolves, sorry, nassty traitor-Wargs, and finito.)

And as for Seer and Ranger, cf. above, if I did not miss something (again, which is well possible with these silly prophecies which no one cannoth readeth, if you get my meaning), it may not be sure whether the second one is a Ranger - in fact, not even whether the first one is a Seer, though this is most probable. But simply, we have one Gifted who can do something already on Night 1 (probably See, then) and another who can't (possibly Ranger, or Hunter).

Ah, okay, but I take it back. "One to protect", really, that sounds like a Ranger most probably. Obviously I "cannoth readeth" even normal stuff.

Edit: x-ed with Rune and Lommy.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This is stating well. . . I actually overlooked the prophecie, ut must be because of nerves and eagernes to get things rolling.

Anyways a thanks to Lommy for putting forth her intepritation of it, I my self find it a bit confusing, but my brain works in mystirious ways.

[Gollum the Great]

I don't like the look of things.

*Gollum looks at the remains and grit his teeth, the blood's scent reminding him of not yet having breakfast*

The story has me mystified. That thing about "But again the pairs, and again in pairs", is just plain queer. Perhaps Eomer went off his onion, wrote all these messages out, slashed himself to bits and decided it would make a good mystery story. But I forgot, we're the Elders, and are supposed to be serious. My bad.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

It's the blooooooooood! That's what draws them near, I swear it! On night 3, there will be so much blood that it will draw the traitors here!

Sorry, wanted to rhyme. Anywhoo, present.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Well, of course, this is all a little random at the moment, but at the risk of becoming prominent I'll get the first post up before I head off to bed.
I think that our dearly departed Eomer's words are fairly clear as regards those gifted Wargs in our midst: one to see the truth and one to protect the innocent. In those councils of the lesser peoples of this Middle Earth they are known as the seer and the ranger.
As regards those pernicious, traiterous beasts in our midst who are not fit to be called Wargs my mind is troubled, though. Listen carefully to those dying words of dear Eomer: 'But again the pairs, and again the pairs'. Are there any others among us who are concerned we may be battling against six fell enemies. Surely the first again would indicate there had already been an initial evil pair?

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

if we're extra smart and lucky, we can win this game very easily...

Ha ha.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Two nassty monstersss now (ah, sorry... wargs don't hiss. I mistook it with something else), and if we don't get them, two more later? Actually it sounds good, even for a balance.
[...]
And as for Seer and Ranger, cf. above, if I did not miss something

Yeah, that's how I understand it.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

He was almost giddy as the night crept nearer. In pairs they come! he would repeat. Two to spill blood on the sacred ground! They bring terror and death. One night, a second and yea! a third, of this I know. But what follows! Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies! Their war beats and tramples us, and brings about that dread circumstance: the pain of Wargs is here. Two amoral forces, to subvert all others. The twain will come, at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels. The pain of Wargs is the only certainty.

Originally Posted by SamwiseGamgee

Listen carefully to those dying words of dear Eomer: 'But again the pairs, and again the pairs'. Are there any others among us who are concerned we may be battling against six fell enemies. Surely the first again would indicate there had already been an initial evil pair?

Actually, now that I look at it again, I think you may be right, SamGam: two traitors each night for three nights - and then the prophecy seems to indicate that something crazy happens, but I can't tell what exactly. After the prophecy has already discussed the six traitors over three days, it says that: "Two will follow, great enemies, after the third night, great enemies!" This is something different, as these two new figures follow the regular traitors and are apparently enemies. Might they be something along the lines of the wizards of Dueling Wizard fame/igominy? Or something else? Any ideas? I'm also curious what the prophecy means when it says (just following this), "The twain will come at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels." If "twain" refers to the earlier pairs of traitors, then the meaning is relatively clear, as the "master" and the "foe" are apparently the two great enemies of the previous lines. But, if "twain" refers, rather, to those two enemies, then we have something entirely weird on our hands. What exactly, I couldn't begin to say. I'm inclined to think the first interpretation more likely. Occam's razor, you know.

[Kitanna]

Well fiddlesticks. I am present and unenthused with our situation. Unfortunately I have little time before I must go to bed. So allow me to lament and make my presence known. When I awake I will return with more substance.

[Brinniel]

I bet I could spend a lot of my time reading through the narrations and trying to analyse what it means...but I'm not going to. Mainly because I simply don't have the time to and honestly, all I really need to know right now is that there are traitors among us and all our efforts should be put towards lynching them. As much as I hate to feel clueless about the game, I'm not going to waste time trying to figure out the details as long as I know the main goal.

With that said, I mean it when I tell you I am short on time particularly toDay (and so stressed with RL I admit I'm feeling rather moody, which is why I won't linger tonight). Unfortunately, this means I'll have to vote extremely early (in about 9 hours). Well, I could risk voting later since there's a slight chance I might make it back later...but it's a risk I'm not willing to take.

Anyways, I am looking forward to playing with some new faces (there's three, I think), and also old faces too. Well, with the exception of Rune...as he always manages to get me lynched whenever I play with him.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I wonder how possible it is that there are three pairs of two traitor-Wargs each, that kill rotationally?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I wonder how possible it is that there are three pairs of two traitor-Wargs each, that kill rotationally?

Like, that they take turns whose turn it's to pick a kill? And they would only win as separate teams? Hmm... Could be, but honestly, I can't see anything pointing at that especially... But Samwise and Gwath do make me wonder... this seems a little confusing.

Originally Posted by Eomer, boldings&numbers mine

In pairs they come! he would repeat. Two to spill blood on the sacred ground! They bring terror and death. 1) One night, a second and yea! a third, of this I know. But what follows! Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies! 2) Their war beats and tramples us, and brings about that dread circumstance: the pain of Wargs is here.3) Two amoral forces, to subvert all others. The twain will come, at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels. The pain of Wargs is the only certainty.

1) Doesn't make sense. Three traitors? But didn't he just write that there are two of them? ("The two enemies of Wargs may talk and scheme...") Weird.
2) "Their war"? Do we have fighting wolf teams, after all?
3) Two forces? Two traitors or two traitor teams? Or something else?

I'm starting to be inclined to think like Brinn. Maybe we should just get rid of the two traitors that exist now and see what happens later. All this interpretation chaos causes mess and makes my brain hurt and it won't probably lead anywhere. (Granted, it's a good topic to discuss while there's nothing else.) I think it's clear enough that Eomer will add two more wolves after Night3, whether to the same team or establish a new team, I don't know. But I trust him to clarify what exactly he's doing when he does that...

[Thinlómien]

Well, okay then, since no one has started it yet, let's go and throw some suspicion around to get people talk about other stuff than the rules...

Something suspicious about everybody...

Brinn - While her attitude looks innocently practical, she could be a wolf who is enjoying the ignorance of the villagers and trying to preserve it by disencouraging analysing of the mod's posts by setting an example.

Gollum - There's always a newbie wolf. You see, statistically, one has probably the highest chance to be a wolf in his/her first game...

Gwath - Is trying to confuse the village with his weird interpretations of Eomer's words, clearly. I mean, Eomer said this game is going to be relatively basic and this guy goes on talking about wizards...

Kitanna - I never liked that "hi, I'm here" habit (except with Kath because it's so characteristic of her ). Always makes me wonder if it's a wolf who's just keen on maintaining a presence...

Legate - Is writing long rambling posts without really saying anything so obviously just a wolf maintaining a presence and not interested in really getting things going.

Rune - He says he's nervous and eager. I wonder why... Also, he takes my interpretation as the truth a bit too readily... suspicious.

Samwise - I had forgotten his style and the fact that it always makes me intuitively suspicious. I remember once being right about him being a wolf, though...

Shasta - First, it looks like he knows the rules better than the rest of us, but doesn't care to elaborate. Then, he's suddenly suggesting something about as silly as six traitors, when Eomer has just said there are two of them at the moment... Fishy.

Kath, Nogrod, Mith, Diamond, Groin and Gaunt - Obviously hiding in the shadows intentionally...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Posting from the school library... yay!!! (They have a horrible keyboard, though. Very noisy to type, which makes me distracted.)

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm also curious what the prophecy means when it says (just following this), "The twain will come at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels." If "twain" refers to the earlier pairs of traitors, then the meaning is relatively clear, as the "master" and the "foe" are apparently the two great enemies of the previous lines. But, if "twain" refers, rather, to those two enemies, then we have something entirely weird on our hands. What exactly, I couldn't begin to say. I'm inclined to think the first interpretation more likely. Occam's razor, you know.

I don't get it at all, but when I first skim-read this part of the prophecy, I thought: what, something like the Boss and the Henchmen in Gil's game a long time ago? Maybe indeed some DW-y thing, like, maybe just in the sense that the baddies first pick somebody to "curse" and this one later turns into a Wolf (on Day 3???). And "foe", if it's a foe of the baddies? I.e. what about some Hunter?

Honestly, I have no idea. I also don't think it has too much of a real value right now, indeed, we have two wolves now (plainly, from what Eomer said in the narration), what comes later, will simply be dealt with when it comes. Nevertheless, it's good to have at least some idea, mainly that we know how many wolves we have now, and later, how many new ones were added or whatever. Several wolf teams also sounds like an option to me. But would it mean multiple kills? I'd hope not, there's not too many of us after all.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I wonder how possible it is that there are three pairs of two traitor-Wargs each, that kill rotationally?

Shasta's idea about "taking turns" actually also does not sound that impossible. That would also mean a big change (when you have to judge on basis of who killed which night etc.... it will be maybe too much confusing, but who knows. I have seen worse games, eh, Mr.Phantom?...).

Anyway, as Lommy said, as good topic as any to discuss for the moment. I actually think, quite good for start, not to just sit here and wonder.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I mean, Eomer said this game is going to be relatively basic and this guy goes on talking about wizards...

He said: relatively. And the mere prophecy was sufficient enough for me.

Now, I just wonder what to make of Lommy's apparent rudeness, I mean come on, she may have been tired yesterday evening, but now it's morning (at least for her) and she should not be thinking that sillily...

P.S. Wow! I love to be in WW again after such a long time! It's just great!!! Will be back!!!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, having nothing to do, I made a reflection of the horrible (interpretate in whichever sense suits you) prophecy.

Interpretation follows:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

He was almost giddy as the night crept nearer. In pairs they come! he would repeat. Two to spill blood on the sacred ground! They bring terror and death.

Two traitors in the beginning.

One night, a second and yea! a third, of this I know. But what follows! Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies!

First and second night normal course of action, after third night, two more traitors appear...

Their war beats and tramples us, and brings about that dread circumstance: the pain of Wargs is here. Two amoral forces, to subvert all others. The twain will come,

...who seem to belong to a different team. I.e. two Wolf teams who "battle each other". Makes good sense for balance. (Four, yet also of course may go against each other...)

at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels. The pain of Wargs is the only certainty.

Now only this is very cryptic part. I don't know about you, but what I think of is a "master" on the side of the baddies (both?), and a "Hunter", or what? Master=Cobbler, as it was sometimes? Or will he join both the teams? Or something totally different? And WHEN? Or is it just some poetic babbling?

The first seems okay: two wolves now, two teams after Night 3. Or so I would read it. That would be reasonable for the game setting. The end is baffling. I say we don't bother, unless somebody has a good interpretation for it.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

But again the pairs, and again the pairs, who would come to bring murder…

This is also kind of weird. But I thought the "again" is supposed to stand against the former text, which wrote about the Gifteds, so it means no more than "there are two who will help you, but again (sic), there are the pairs (2+2 wolves)... Hmm... now seeing it, the second "again the pairs", unless it's poetic repetition, is really weird.

Okay, anyway, I wanted to clear this up also for myself. The two wolf teams seem probable. Do you think... do you actually think, I now got an idea, that the wolves wouldn't actually kill at all, but "mutate" the others to wolves too? That could make understandable the "pairs and again pairs" forming... I know, it's quite overstretching it, but I'm merely thinking aloud... although "blood spilled" would speak for kills... or then it could be to lynches... or, when a wolf targets a wolf to kill, only THEN the wolf will be killed... okay, nonsense. That'd be too much, and Eomer would've told us if it were to be THAT complicated. (Well, he may still do so in the Evening.) But I was merely thinking.

EDIT: Hm, this makes weird italics up there, but no idea how this can be fixed. Just ignore it then.

Anyway, I am probably going to let this for you here to chew now... and be back later. Where are all these Groins, Nogrods, Gaunts and all?

[Nogrod]

Just to add my two cents into the discussion about our situation...

In pairs they come! ... One night, a second and yea! a third, of this I know.

So we have two villains here right now. Possibly another pair the next Night?

But what follows! Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies! Their war beats and tramples us, and brings about that dread circumstance

So if in pairs they come we have two plus two villains after the next Night and six after the third... but they only form

Two amoral forces, to subvert all others.

? So it looks they will be fighting each other but form only two sides? To subvert others... like trying to enlist other villains into their teams at Nights or something?

The twain will come, at the behest of their following master, and his foe is at their heels.

Or a third side is something totally different... Maybe on
our side? *crosses fingers for hope*

The pain of Wargs is the only certainty.

So even they fight against each other we are the ones who suffer of that fight.

Oops!

Two will follow, after the third night, great enemies!

So this can be read also "after the Night" eg. on Day3 onwards... so four diffenrent teams of two running rampant...

Gah, maybe you're right. Let's hunt the present baddies first...

[Gaunt]

Hello Fellow Wargs,

So far there is little, as far as I can see, to be made of this contemptible warg heresy. Samwise's theory on the prophecy seems plausible - that we will be facing a total of six traitors - but one wonders in what pattern the pairs will appear, and what level of cooperation will exist between them. Do the six traitors at present all know their roles, or will two be turned to the path of treachery with each passing day, until we have six?

What if one of the wargs destined for treachery is identified - will another be chosen in his or her stead to fulfill the prophecy of the pairs?

Much to consider.

[Mithalwen]

I don't know what is going on but I suspect Lommie has been eating funny mushrooms. .... That was an interesting load of meta game nonsense, very odd

[Brinniel]

Okay, not much has really happened since last night. And honestly, I have not the slightest clue who the traitors could be. This early in the Day, nobody really stands out as suspicious even a little bit.

I have to take off for class in only minutes and I don't know if I'll be back before deadline. So I think I'll do something I've never done before....and not vote (gasp). Yeah, yeah, it's something that'll probably get me killed (as usually does)....whether it's because the village decides a non-vote is too suspicious or the baddies decide I'd make a great no-track kill. I could make a completely random vote, but I just don't feel like it toDay. Sorry.

Oh how I hate when RL interferes with WW....

[Kitanna]

So, most of what is being discussed is Eomer's "pairs and pairs" prophecy and how we should take it. Since that is the main topic of discussion it's hard to form opinions on anyway. Lommy appears to be the only one who has put forth any sort of accusation and she points her finger at everyone so not a whole lot to go off of there.

Legate is being quite helpful in helping us decipher this riddle left, but we can ponder all day about the pairs Eomer is talking about and not really accomplish anything.

Legate: Sort of innocent, helpful, bordering on too helpful, but he may actually be the one who cracks the prophecy and gets it right, which good or evil could quite possibly benefit us later.
Lommy: Sort of innocent, stirred away from the prophecy ideas and contributed something that could provide decent fodder for later.
SamGam, Gwath, and Gollum: Not so innocent, but not so guilty either. After Legate's first long post of picking apart the pairs hint left by Eomer these three took up the same cause to analyze it. Sometimes the restating of ideas like this is because people want to see it in their own words or they're hiding something by jumping on an innocent idea that will make them look helpful.

That's all I have for now. I'll be back in a few hours.

[Nogrod]

How come you Lommy think this would be a relatively basic game as Eomer says it himself quite clearly in the TIG-thread:

Originally Posted by Eomer in #4081

I think I mentioned before that the game would be simple. I've actually changed my mind and want to do something a little bit creative. But it's all very secretive.

Originally Posted by Eomer in #4084

Ok, so this game will be a little bit experimental. I, of course, hope it goes swimmingly, but I will beg your forgiveness if it goes wrong. Here's hoping all's well, eh?

So some fancy stuff ahead of us it seems.

BUt Ill promise that's my part of this speculation toDay. I'll go back and try to see if I can say anything more constructive at this point.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

SamGam, Gwath, and Gollum: Not so innocent, but not so guilty either. After Legate's first long post of picking apart the pairs hint left by Eomer these three took up the same cause to analyze it. Sometimes the restating of ideas like this [...].

I was not just "restating." I am insulted that you failed to appreciate my new and original ideas.

[Nogrod]

A half-constructive point for starters...

There has been a lot of discussion about the possible set-up of this game and what the prophecies mean. And as Lommy and some others have mentioned it's okay to discuss them when one has nothing else to go on with. Sometimes these discussions may be even revealing if the wolves know the situation and have an interest to make pepole think about the rules in a certain way, but looking at the hints given to us and Eomer's talk about an experimental game it would look to me the wolves are no more cognizant of the situation we are or that they would have any clear interest in certain interpretations at this moment (in the end we "know" there are two wolves toDay).

So I'm afraid we can't read too much from those interpretations of the rules / setting of the game which kind of makes all the "rules-talk" a little less productive one might hope for.

But happily there are other things to read - and there might be things in between the lines of some of the "rule-talk" as well.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

How come you Lommy think this would be a relatively basic game as Eomer says it himself quite clearly in the TIG-thread:


So some fancy stuff ahead of us it seems.

BUt Ill promise that's my part of this speculation toDay. I'll go back and try to see if I can say anything more constructive at this point.

Did Eomer not state that it would be a relatively simple game before he says these other things, let me answer that my self: Yes he did.

So it seem quite clear that either she is trying to trick us or she simply remembered it wrong and I do not see much point in trying to trick us at this point, as all is mass confusion anyway.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I was not just "restating." I am insulted that you failed to appreciate my new and original ideas.

Regardless of the fact if you are being new and original, you and others are muddying the waters by debating something that doesn't get us any closer to catching the bad guys. I stand by what I said, but it wasn't meant to offend.

Originally Posted by Rune

So it seem quite clear that either she is trying to trick us or she simply remembered it wrong and I do not see much point in trying to trick us at this point, as all is mass confusion anyway.

When you say "she" are you referring to Lommy or someone else? If you are talking about Lommy can you explain how she might be trying to trick us?

[Nogrod]

Some thoughts thus far.

Lommy’s first post is just weird… and Legate's first ones look a bit puzzling as well (it was late for both of them to be sure).

Samwise raises my eyebrow with this beginning reservation:

Well, of course, this is all a little random at the moment, but at the risk of becoming prominent I'll get the first post up before I head off to bed.

After which he only mildly speculated about the gifted roles and the number of baddies to come. It looks very much like over-reacting or pre-empting to me.

Shasta’s and Kit’s first posts mainly state their presence. Kind of posts that always make me a bit worried

Lommy’s suspect-list is a bit weird as well. It’s not Lommyish. Like her first post is not. Now this is not saying she’s a wolf as she might be just trying a different mode of play for she could pull it very considerately were she a wolf. What I’m a bit concerned is just a tone I’m getting from her posting which isn’t exactly sincere. But that’s not something I would be ready to vote for her today: it’s too vague and feeling-based.

I’m a bit puzzled over Kitanna’s last post. Her choices of people she points out and what she says of them is interesting. It’s clear that Lommy and Legate have posted the most and then it’s also understandable to pick them. But it’s interesting she ends up stressing that Legate might be the one to crack the riddles in the end (when almost everyone posted had engaged themselves in a way or another to cracking the prophecies) but that Lommy’s host of talk might “provide decent fodder for later”… ?

Then she puts together SamGam, Gwath, and Gollum and says they are only repeating Legate’s points – which in the end I think is not even true. Looking for easy lynches?

It's very much open to me at this point of the Day. If I'd need to vote now it might be Samvais or Kit but hopefully there is more to read when I come back later - it's just too much second guessing right now.

Look innocentish at this moment: Gwath, Brinn.

EDIT: X'd with Kitanna

[Kitanna]

My first class was canceled so I'll be around for a while yet.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I’m a bit puzzled over Kitanna’s last post. Her choices of people she points out and what she says of them is interesting. It’s clear that Lommy and Legate have posted the most and then it’s also understandable to pick them. But it’s interesting she ends up stressing that Legate might be the one to crack the riddles in the end (when almost everyone posted had engaged themselves in a way or another to cracking the prophecies) but that Lommy’s host of talk might “provide decent fodder for later”… ?

By fodder for later I meant depending on how toDay and Night goes it may leave us with some sort of clue in the Days to come or it could well mean absolutely nothing later. And as for Legate he's dedicated the most time to trying to figure things out, that's all that meant. It doesn't mean he'll figure out what Eomer meant or that anyone will for that matter.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

When you say "she" are you referring to Lommy or someone else? If you are talking about Lommy can you explain how she might be trying to trick us?

Of course I am talking about Lommy, but I think you are misunderstanding me.

Basicly I thought Nogrod's question to Lommy was a bit unnecisary, as seemed clear to me that Lommy had remembered the part where Eomer said it would be an ordinary game and forgotten that he retracted that later on.

I then state that the only other possible explenation is in my view that Lommy was trying to misguide us. . . but I do not belive that is the case! (She would gain so little for that)

So I was actually questioning Nogrod rather than Lommy. . . Does that make sense?

[Mithalwen]

Sorry if it duplicates, but time is short for me today.

The game will last at least 3 nights so if we get the extant Warg-enemies we win ... however there will be a rival pair of Warg-enemies after that. So that presumably will mean 2 kills per night but the possibility of them taking each other out.

If this is correct I suspect that the second pair are aware of their destiny and are cobbling. Lommie seems so cobblerish there has to be an explanation.

I have to vote early tonight - familystuff.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Legate is being quite helpful in helping us decipher this riddle left, but we can ponder all day about the pairs Eomer is talking about and not really accomplish anything.

Well, I was not actually trying to be helpful at all - like I said, I was doing that for myself, and also, to do something while waiting for everybody to show up. (By the way, do we have everyone here? What about Groin?)

Lommy: Sort of innocent, stirred away from the prophecy ideas and contributed something that could provide decent fodder for later.

When I saw this, I wanted to ask you about it, and even though Nogrod did too and you answered me, it still does not quite provide the answer for me. Just what did you mean? "Stirred away... and contributed something that could provide decent fodder for later." I.e., she contributed something else besides the prophecy-talk - here you must mean her accusations. I am not sure, but did you notice that she accused practically everyone? (Well, you did.) And I don't think it was serious at all. Quite obviously. Or was it? But in the case it wasn't, what "decent fodder for later" it may be?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So I'm afraid we can't read too much from those interpretations of the rules / setting of the game which kind of makes all the "rules-talk" a little less productive one might hope for.

But happily there are other things to read - and there might be things in between the lines of some of the "rule-talk" as well.

Indeed, and I don't want to say these words aloud, but I am quite happy that there was such a topic to discuss on the first Day, rather then the usual You-Know-What, which we discuss all the time on Day 1s otherwise. (And please, let's forget this immediately. At least one game without that! Make it a holiday!) It may not be productive per se, but then, what on Day 1 is.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Basicly I thought Nogrod's question to Lommy was a bit unnecisary, as seemed clear to me that Lommy had remembered the part where Eomer said it would be an ordinary game and forgotten that he retracted that later on.

I then state that the only other possible explenation is in my view that Lommy was trying to misguide us. . . but I do not belive that is the case! (She would gain so little for that)

That's right, and eventually, the truth will come out by itself: sure she, even if she wanted, couldn't hope that none of the 15 of us would remember what Eomer said later. Speaking of this, now Rune seems quite nice here bringing this up - reasonable, only hopefully not bringing attention to Nogrod. Which I, however, dismiss.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

If this is correct I suspect that the second pair are aware of their destiny and are cobbling. Lommie seems so cobblerish there has to be an explanation.

This is actually most interesting idea which I wouldn't have really thought of myself. Just how comes? It seems weird to me - for some reason, although logically it could make sense. As for cobblerish Lommy, well, at once I had similar feeling, however I would take it with great reservations - at least not until later on. Cobblerish feeling from Lommy does not seem to me now a good enough reason for suspecting her. Not yet.

Anyway... I am going to post my thoughts on everyone this far in the next post (summarised), though don't expect me to say much except for a few people (resp., don't expect me to say much about even those few people. But I have some general ideas, some outlined already in the text above).

[Mithalwen]

Personally I don't have a "later on" today. I don't like Lommie's post it is too self aware and knowing and has the clever-clever ring that makes me uneasy
Eomer said he was going for something different so maybe we have to think differently. I think this is a good thing since it can be easy to get complacent.

Also interesting is having a couple of unknown quantities ... fresh blood is always welcome though it is not the most felicitous phrase in this context.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Ok, so in an ode to Thinlómien I have compiled a short list, with my comments and thoughts on play so far. Here's what I've got:

Legate: my inclination is to think that, whilst unwise, the 'thinking out loud' approach is fairly innocent. Although there's a lot of stuff to sieve through, I can say that I have been helped by some of his thoughts relating to the prophecy. However, the fact that he's dwelling so much on the prophecy makes me a little bit uncomfortable- I really think we should be getting down to the job we innocents have of rooting out the taint of evil in our midst.

Rune Son: in post 11 a mistake is aknowledged. I would never think like this normally, but WW being WW my mind is thinking: is that a genuine aknowledgement of a mistake or is it a clever ploy to fool us all into thinking you're genuine?

Brinniel: I don't like non-votiung on day one one little bit for the following reasons: it puts the innocents in the awkward position of not being able to see someone's thinking, and it also gives the evil deserters amongst us an option to cast the seeds of doubt. (That's in no way personal, Brin, it's just the way I see it as a player).

Lommy: was the first to throw suspicion around, but I don't actually find that suspicious in itself- gotta start somewhere, eh? I am slightly perturbed by the initial post, though. Such overanalysis may be clever tactics intended to throw Wargs with otherwise keen snouts off the scent by the medium of humour.

Shasta: I very nearly had no opinion after the initial post, but the last post from her made me think that we may have a very subtle and wily Warg-killer on our hands. Does suggesting a rotational system not, after all, decrease the possibility of we innocents seeing a trend in the wolves tactics as to who they kill? If so, then this seed, once planted, may be used to undermine an otherwise perfectly logical argument. I know that is very subtle, and a bit unlikely, but it's a possibility nonetheless.

Gwath: agrees with me in her second post, but has misunderstood what I said. I tend to think this probably makes her innocent, as it would seem to indicate a genuine will to solve the prophecy, rather than just stroke my ego.

Kit: has her reservations about me, which is fine- so do I!- but seems keen to move us on from the prophecy. I agree on that point, and because I do and I know I'm an innocent I think she probably is too.

Nogrod: I actuall didn't just mildly speculate, I stated what the gifteds clearly were (Legate had tried, bless him, but gotten carried away on Highway Tangent) and then put forward a new thought on the despicable Warg-killers. Odd that I was worried I'd be picked up for an early post with too much content and then the exact opposite happens. That, dear Nogrod, worries me.

Mith: nothing substantial, but there. Not overly happy with that.

Gaunt: puts forward a reasonable theory, but again doesn't actually get us any closer toward the meat of starting to identify who we're to do away with this evening.

So, there it is. Not much to go on, but it's what I've got. I do honestly think that we need to move on from the prophecy. Eomer is a tricksy one, and he's quite probably taking perverse delight from beyond the grave at watching us struggle to answer something which we actually have no control over. It's been said before and I'll say it again: we have two enemies to deal with now, of this we're sure, so let's just concentrate on them.

Anyway, in another shocker I know I'm not going to get back online tonight, and so I'm going to vote.

**Brinniel**

I just don't want her alive tomorrow and for us to spend a day thinking: 'Did the enemies leave her alive, or is she an enemy herself?' My approach, while brutal, is necessary: get rid of the doubt. And I am most suspicious of her, so I'm going to sleep fine!

P.S.~ Sorry if I refferred to you as a he and you're a she or vice versa, but I should remind you that we Wargs transcend the confines of mere gender!