Dwarves vs Elves

[skytree]

How would a mighty Dwarf Lord like Azaghal fare in combat against the likes of an Echtelion, Glorfindel, or Fingolfin?

[Mithalwen]

Thsi is probably more of a N&N subject but...

Dwarves are very strong, fierce and determined and have excellent weaponry and armour. However elves are agile, strong and no less tireless and have a great height advantage. The elflords you mention would be well equiped and were arguably the finest warriors of their race. I think you have to say elves have the edge because of speed and height with the caveat that they would be vulnerable to being hamstrung by the shorter dwarves (ie what Merry did to the witch king).

[Morthoron]

Hmmm...Ecthelion, Glorfindel or Fingolfin against Azaghal? I think any of the three Elves mentioned would mop the floor with the dwarf. My reasoning? Simple. Glorfindel and Ecthelion fought balrogs singlehandedly and Fingolfin squared off alone against Morgoth (yes, they were all three killed, but in the first two cases, they also killed the Balrogs, and Fingolfin so badly wounded Morgoth that he walked with a limp everafter and never fought in combat again). Azaghal proved very brave against Glaurung, but he didn't fight him singlehanded and he died even with other dwarves' support, while Glaurung lived to fight another day. And as far as Balrogs, it seems an entire dwarrow of Dwarves could not defeat a Balrog.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

On all accounts this is a difficult question to answer, because what kind of combat are we talking about?

Are they fighting with no weaponry and armour? If they do have weapons, what kind and is it in some sort of arena or in random terrain?

All of these things matter in a fight, not to mention strength and wits. . .the sad thing is we can only guess and not even very qualified. At least I cannot.

Yes the elves killed Balrogs and the dwarf died without killing the dragon, but we do not really know the specific sercumstances for these killings. Who knows, maybe Glorfindel was very lucky and Azaghal very unlucky?

Personally I think that the elves would win, they just seem to have more strenghts than the dwarves. Maybe the dwarves could carry heavier armour, but I doubt that would win them the combat.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

One should consider where combat would be enjoined.
In caves, fortresses, in open fields?
The dwarves did rather well in Menegroth.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Type of weapon does seem to be something of a factor; witness the contest between Gimli and Legolas at Helm's Deep. Legolas got a lead when he was able to use a distance weapon, a bow, but the gap closed when it came down to hand-to-hand in a melee situation. Dwarves (to me) have always seemed like the sort who would be good in brawls, in close-quarter situations where height and reach aren't necessarily able to be used to their best advantage. Dwarves do seem to favor weapons that would be most useful under those circumstances.

And I would also consider the source. These tales of valor are being written from the point of view of Elves or Men, or even hobbits. We never really get to hear a tale told from the Dwarven point of view. I'm willing to bet they'd sound considerably different!

[Boromir88]

I'm willing to bet they'd sound considerably different!~Ibrin

True, that does put a slant on things. And Aragorn was at least impressed with Gimli's fighting prowess:

"That must be my hope," said Legolas. "But I wish that he had come this way. I desired to tell Master Gimli that my tale is now thirty-nine!"

"If he wins back the caves, he will pass your count again," laughed Aragorn. "Never did I see an axe so wielded."~Helm's Deep

So, weapons involved and the type of combat would definitely play into the situation.

Then again the question is asking about really some of the greatest warrior elf-lords, let's not forget about 'Elf-magic,' because it takes more than being a skilled fighter to kill a Balrog. Also, I've never imagined Dwarves as being the one-on-one single combat type, like the powerful elves.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Then again the question is asking about really some of the greatest warrior elf-lords, let's not forget about 'Elf-magic,' because it takes more than being a skilled fighter to kill a Balrog. Also, I've never imagined Dwarves as being the one-on-one single combat type, like the powerful elves.

No, we didn't hear Thorin calling out Bard or Thranduil to take them down in single combat in The Hobbit, did we? The closest thing to that I can think of is Gimli inviting Eomer to get off his horse so he could teach him better manners when speaking of Galadriel. I don't think that the Dwarves lack the courage to do so, but that they are more pragmatic about their odds in warfare. When you're shorter and/or fewer in numbers than just about every other sapient being on the planet, there are some risks you may not be willing to take.

And when it comes to Songs of Power... well, that's something only the Elves and Ainur appear to get into. Though I do wonder if the Dwarves have any tales about mighty feats of Durin the Deathless that they keep to themselves. Hmmm.....

[skip spence]

How would a mighty Dwarf Lord like Azaghal fare in combat against the likes of an Echtelion, Glorfindel, or Fingolfin?

The Dwarf would not fare well against the Elf, I'm afraid.

Dwarves are very tough and fight Orcs gladly but would struggle against much taller opponents. The great height and reach advantage of the Elves would be the deciding factor I believe.

Consider this:

Originally Posted by TT; Helm's Deep

'I followed you to shake off sleep', said Gimli, 'but I looked on the hillmen and they seemed over large for me, so I sat beside a stone to see your sword-play'.

If Hillmen are too large for Gimli's liking great Elven lords - presumably much taller still - would be a very tough cookie for a Dwarf to handle in single combat.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And I would also consider the source. These tales of valor are being written from the point of view of Elves or Men, or even hobbits. We never really get to hear a tale told from the Dwarven point of view. I'm willing to bet they'd sound considerably different!

Yes, Tolkien was always a wicked propagandist against the Dwarves. It was always Elves, Elves, Elves with him.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And when it comes to Songs of Power... well, that's something only the Elves and Ainur appear to get into. Though I do wonder if the Dwarves have any tales about mighty feats of Durin the Deathless that they keep to themselves. Hmmm.....

I don't think that Dwarves are the kind of people who would keep tales of mighty feats to them self, if there ancestors did something truly great then they would surely make sure that the world knew.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...Ecthelion, Glorfindel or Fingolfin against Azaghal? I think any of the three Elves mentioned would mop the floor with the dwarf. My reasoning? Simple. Glorfindel and Ecthelion fought balrogs singlehandedly and Fingolfin squared off alone against Morgoth (yes, they were all three killed, but in the first two cases, they also killed the Balrogs, and Fingolfin so badly wounded Morgoth that he walked with a limp everafter and never fought in combat again). Azaghal proved very brave against Glaurung, but he didn't fight him singlehanded and he died even with other dwarves' support, while Glaurung lived to fight another day. And as far as Balrogs, it seems an entire dwarrow of Dwarves could not defeat a Balrog.

Then again, overall the elves of the Third Age aren't the elves of the First Age. Fingolfin, Feanor, Maedhros, etc were far more powerful than Legolas. I don't think it's fair to compare Third Age dwarves, who lost Moria, to the dwarves of the First Age.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Then again, overall the elves of the Third Age aren't the elves of the First Age. Fingolfin, Feanor, Maedhros, etc were far more powerful than Legolas. I don't think it's fair to compare Third Age dwarves, who lost Moria, to the dwarves of the First Age.

I wasn't so much denigrating 3rd Age Dwarves, rather, I was showing what a single Noldorin Elf prince (and there was a specificity in the question referring to only three rarified Elves) could do against a Balrog as opposed to what a whole community of Dwarves could not. The comparison was based more on ratios than time periods.

I would have to say in defense of 1st Age Dwarves that, as a group, they were far more formidable than 3rd Age Dwarves. Azaghal did indeed die along with many of his followers, but they wounded Glaurung and the Father of Dragons was no longer a factor in that battle; whereas the Dwarves of Erebor could not drive off Smaug.

Again, the question was specific to Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Fingolfin versus Azaghal. In this instance I would put my money on Fingolfin in single combat every time. Also, I don't see the WitchKing running from any Dwarf, yet he did so against Glorfindel, and Ecthelion defeated Gothmog (or they killed each other, a la Heimdall and Loki). Gothmog was captain of the Balrogs, and not just your run-of-the-mill Joe Six-Pack Balrog, hiding in Moria hoping to reach the age of Balrogian retirement in order to receive his Antisocial Security benefits.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In answering this somewhat frivolous question, everyone seems to be forgetting the Ruin of Doriath. This is the best example of the tragedy of elf fighting dwarf, and is told to show such a conflict in that light.

Thus is was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and passed over the great bridge and entered into Menegroth; and there befell a thing most grievous among the sorrowful deeds of the Elder Days. For there was battle in the Thousand Caves, and many Elves and Dwarves were slain; and it has not been forgotten. But the Dwarves were victorious, and the halls of Thingol were ransacked and plundered. There fell Mablung of the Heavy Hand before the doors of the treasury wherein lay the Nauglamír; and the Silmaril was taken.

Of the Ruin of Doriath (The Silmarillion, p. 234)

The Dwarves killed Thingol, "Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor," (ibid, p. 233). They also defeated the Elves of Doriath, including Mablung, Thingol's chief captain and therefore not the least formidable of the Sindar.

We should also bear in mind that when Tolkien wrote The Fall of Gondolin he envisaged many balrogs, each substantially less powerful than Durin's Bane. By the time he wrote LR, he seems to have changed his mind and decided that there were a few significantly more powerful balrogs. In HME XI, Christopher Tolkien reproduces one of his father's notes pertaining to balrogs which he made on a typescript of the Grey Annals: it reads "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed" (The War of the Jewels, p. 134). When Glorfindel kills his balrog at Crissaegrim in BLT 2, he hacks off its whip arm at the elbow and stabs it in the belly, but it is difficult to imagine that such a fight would have been possible with the balrog of Moria. Similarly Ecthelion of the Fountain drowns Gothmog, arguably the most powerful balrog, after having been wounded and with a crippled shield arm. These combats from the original Fall of Gondolin are significantly absent from the 1977 Silmarillion, which of course post-dates Gandalf's description of his fight with a balrog.

'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'

...

'...Yet [the abyss] has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge... Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.'

The Two Towers, p. 490

Apparently it was more difficult to drown a balrog than might be supposed from a reading of the original Fall of Gondolin.

Therefore, although a great lord of the Noldor such as Fingolfin, Glorfindel or Ecthelion could probably defeat one of the greater Dwarves, the contest is not such a clear-cut thing as one might imagine. When we consider the years that passed between the writing of Glorfindel's fight and the composition of LR, together with the changes in Tolkien's conception of the number and individual power of balrogs, we can consider the fall of Moria as poor evidence for their relative strengths. As for size playing any significant part, let us remember that Fingolfin managed to wound Morgoth seven times before finally being defeated, and at that time Morgoth "stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned" (Silmarillion, p.152).

So we know that Dwarves can kill Elves, that the ability of some elf-lords to kill balrogs is not conclusive proof and that taller characters can be beaten by those of lesser stature. I still think that the elf would probably win in a completely even match, but I doubt that a Dwarf would enter such a contest in the first place: it would be idiotic. In any case, it seems to demean Tolkien's work more than a little to reduce his legends to questions of who can beat whom.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Also, I don't see the WitchKing running from any Dwarf, yet he did so against Glorfindel, .

Don't disagree with most of what you said, but with the Witch King again one has to be careful making this a simple contest of warrior versus warrior. As discussed elsewhere, one of the Witch King's principal weapons is fear, or as Tolkien says in The Hunt for the Ring (Unfinished Tales):

Moreover, their chief weapon was terror.

and of the Eldar (that includes Glorfindel):

They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

So the Witch King's chief weapon is not really much good against Glorfindel (or against Gandalf, for that matter, Peter Jackson notwithstanding).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

In answering this somewhat frivolous question, everyone seems to be forgetting the Ruin of Doriath. This is the best example of the tragedy of elf fighting dwarf, and is told to show such a conflict in that light.

The Dwarves killed Thingol, "Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor," (ibid, p. 233). They also defeated the Elves of Doriath, including Mablung, Thingol's chief captain and therefore not the least formidable of the Sindar.

Yes, the question is frivolous, but then so are most of the discussions on this or any Tolkien forum. It is what happens when nearly any and every topic has been repeated ad naseum over many years. *shrugs*

First, Thingol was murdered: "and they [dwarves, plural] rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood." This indicates to me that Thingol was surrounded and was not able to defend himself properly; therefore, it is not germane to the original, frivolous premise.

Second, the Sindar were not really comparable to the Noldor per Tolkien, as the Elves of Aman were blessed with abilities that the Sindar and other Moriquendi did not possess. In any case, the original question revolved around single combat between named renowned individuals. The answer to the question might be decidedly different, comparatively speaking, if we were discussing combat on a rank-and-file basis among races, irrespective of great heroes.

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

So we know that Dwarves can kill Elves, that the ability of some elf-lords to kill balrogs is not conclusive proof and that taller characters can be beaten by those of lesser stature. I still think that the elf would probably win in a completely even match, but I doubt that a Dwarf would enter such a contest in the first place: it would be idiotic. In any case, it seems to demean Tolkien's work more than a little to reduce his legends to questions of who can beat whom.

True on many levels, Squatter, but not every topic can be penetrating or philosophically deep (and obviously most just amount to idle banter and speculation). I don't think anyone is demeaning Tolkien when bringing up questions of who can beat whom (or as the Lord of Swamp Castle would say, 'Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.'). People who ardently believe in something often take the object of ardor for granted. I am reminded of medieval clerics who held irreverent masses on certain holidays and served black puddings and used old shoes as incense censers and recited doggerel verses in place of scripture. It's not that they hated the church; on the contrary, they loved it, but there was a familarity that breeched what might seem as due respect for the institution. Therefore, we must be indulgent with the lower classes, and inject a little levity where applicable.

P.S. CSteefel, you are entirely correct regarding the weapons of the WiKi. I was merely offering examples that perhaps shed light on the comparative abilities of the various characters we were discussing.

P.P.S. And in regards to Glorfindel and the Balrog (and Tolkien's continual dissembling), when Tolkien finally decided that Glorfindel Balrog-slayer was indeed the ressurrected Glorfindel Inglorion (and not just the misprint of an already used name), I seem to remember Tolkien alluding to Glorfindel being brought back for the very reason he was renowned for slaying a Balrog; however, I am too lazy to look it up.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

The Dwarves killed Thingol, "Elwë Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Ilúvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor," (ibid, p. 233). They also defeated the Elves of Doriath, including Mablung, Thingol's chief captain and therefore not the least formidable of the Sindar.

We should also bear in mind that when Tolkien wrote The Fall of Gondolin he envisaged many balrogs, each substantially less powerful than Durin's Bane. By the time he wrote LR, he seems to have changed his mind and decided that there were a few significantly more powerful balrogs. In HME XI, Christopher Tolkien reproduces one of his father's notes pertaining to balrogs which he made on a typescript of the Grey Annals: it reads "There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed" (The War of the Jewels, p. 134). When Glorfindel kills his balrog at Crissaegrim in BLT 2, he hacks off its whip arm at the elbow and stabs it in the belly, but it is difficult to imagine that such a fight would have been possible with the balrog of Moria. Similarly Ecthelion of the Fountain drowns Gothmog, arguably the most powerful balrog, after having been wounded and with a crippled shield arm. These combats from the original Fall of Gondolin are significantly absent from the 1977 Silmarillion, which of course post-dates Gandalf's description of his fight with a balrog.

So we know that Dwarves can kill Elves, that the ability of some elf-lords to kill balrogs is not conclusive proof and that taller characters can be beaten by those of lesser stature. I still think that the elf would probably win in a completely even match, but I doubt that a Dwarf would enter such a contest in the first place: it would be idiotic. In any case, it seems to demean Tolkien's work more than a little to reduce his legends to questions of who can beat whom.

We also know that Elves can kill Dwarves. . . but that does not really get us closer to an answer.

Just as the slaying of Balrogs is not conlusive proof for Elves being mightyier than Dwarves, as unconclusive is the sacking of Doriath. Yes the Dwarves came out on top, but would they also have done so if the Elves had been prepared and organised? I am not so sure. . .
It is kind of like saying that Swedes are better at fighting than Danes and would win in combat because they won the Torstenson War.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

We also know that Elves can kill Dwarves. . . but that does not really get us closer to an answer.

Just as the slaying of Balrogs is not conlusive proof for Elves being mightyier than Dwarves, as unconclusive is the sacking of Doriath. Yes the Dwarves came out on top, but would they also have done so if the Elves had been prepared and organised? I am not so sure. . .
It is kind of like saying that Swedes are better at fighting than Danes and would win in combat because they won the Torstenson War.

Well, at least we know that ninjas are better than pirates.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Well, at least we know that ninjas are better than pirates.

NU-UH....not undead pirates or were-pirates!

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I don't think that Dwarves are the kind of people who would keep tales of mighty feats to them self, if there ancestors did something truly great then they would surely make sure that the world knew.

Well, they did keep a whole language to themselves. I do think it would be quite interesting to see "The Secret History of the Dwarves",


I also think that the elves would win, but only because of the particular ones chosen. If, maybe the dwarves had gone to Valinor, or if it was Durin the Deathless, it could have been a different result. Against those elves that hadn't been to Valinor (except for maybe a few) and their descendants an average Dwarf vs Elf could be even (or at least, much closer).

The problem is that ultimately, the Elf will never die, while the Dwarf will. If it was a very extreme case, an elf killed by a Dwarf might be permitted to return to Middle-Earth to kill the Dwarf. Or is there reincarnation in Dwarves. I don't think there is any real information about what happens to Dwarves after they die, only speculation and belief. But if reincarnation for Dwarves does exist, that would mean that none of them would ever totaally die.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But if reincarnation for Dwarves does exist, that would mean that none of them would ever totaally die.

Wasn't it Neil Young that sang:

"Hey, hey, my, my --
Dwarvish Souls may never die.
There's more to the Naugrim
Than meets the eye --
Hey, hey, my, my."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, they did keep a whole language to themselves. I do think it would be quite interesting to see "The Secret History of the Dwarves",

A language seems like a thing that could be nice to keep to one self, but that is just my way of thinking and it is probably not the same as the dwarven way.

I know I am walking on thin ice, but I do belive that Dwarves did not like to be overshadowed by other races and wanted to prove that they where as capable if not better. Therefor I belive they would have made sure the world knew about the most brilliant of their accomplishments, that is all.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

P.P.S. And in regards to Glorfindel and the Balrog (and Tolkien's continual dissembling), when Tolkien finally decided that Glorfindel Balrog-slayer was indeed the ressurrected Glorfindel Inglorion (and not just the misprint of an already used name), I seem to remember Tolkien alluding to Glorfindel being brought back for the very reason he was renowned for slaying a Balrog; however, I am too lazy to look it up.

I'm not.

From what is said of Glorfindel in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings it is evident that he was an Elda of high and noble spirit: and it can be assumed that, though he left Valinor in the host of Turgon, and so incurred the ban, he did so reluctantly because of kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.

More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Eärendil to escape, and seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. Though he cannot have known the importance of this (and would have defended them even had they been fugitives of any rank) , this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.

...

For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

HME XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth, pp. 380-1

This is the same statement referred to by CRT in The Return of the Shadow, pp. 214-5. From it, we can see that Glorfindel had been spiritually enhanced, not by fighting the balrog, but by sacrificing himself to save the refugees from Gondolin. Tolkien doesn't mention it being the reason for his dispatch, but he does use it as his chief reason for Glorfindel's release from the Halls of Waiting before the other Elves of Gondolin. I expect that the spiritual enhancement probably meant that he could see off an undead ninja pirate any day of the week.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In any case, the original question revolved around single combat between named renowned individuals. The answer to the question might be decidedly different, comparatively speaking, if we were discussing combat on a rank-and-file basis among races, irrespective of great heroes.

Originally Posted by Rune, lord of the prune

We also know that Elves can kill Dwarves. . . but that does not really get us closer to an answer.

As far as I know, the Ruin of Doriath is the only place where we see Elves and Dwarves fighting one another. It's poor evidence, I know, but if poor evidence is all there is then I'll take it. I knew that Thingol's death, surrounded and taken by surprise, was shaky as well, but as far as I know he was the only Elf to have both seen the light of the Two Trees and fought Dwarves. The Silmarillion doesn't mention him taking anyone with him, but of course he was unarmed and outnumbered.

Rune: you lost. The Swedes are better. I know it hurts, but you'll get over it.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It's not that they hated the church; on the contrary, they loved it, but there was a familarity that breeched what might seem as due respect for the institution. Therefore, we must be indulgent with the lower classes, and inject a little levity where applicable.

The lower orders should be grateful that I don't have them horse-whipped for forgetting to touch their forelocks. I always do inject levity in the appropriate place, and that place is Middle-earth Mirth. In that forum I'm happy to speculate about whether Gandalf could beat Pallando in an arm-wrestling contest, or whether Bilbo could blow better smoke-rings than Tobold Hornblower (both of which are answered in the History of Middle-earth extended edition). It's just that in Books the topics ought to reach a bit further, delve a bit deeper. I'm not saying that you have to hate Tolkien to find it important which of his races (on the same side) would win a combat; it just seems that people who do have somehow missed the point. Here we are trying to rate the Free Peoples according to who would win a fight, when their victories all come from acting together. We're asking about strength in arms when Tolkien's point was often that strength and martial prowess aren't enough. Túrin is a great warrior, but his life is a disaster. Sauron judges everything by temporal power and fighting ability and things don't turn out so well for him either, which leads me to wonder about Providence. It's a central theme in LR, and Tolkien's statement about Glorfindel above points out that he made the ultimate victory possible without having been able to know that he was doing so. Would it even matter who could probably win based on the evidence if the outcome of Eru's plans were to hang on the outcome?

Lest any say that I'm taking everything too seriously, if this topic had sprung up in Mirth, even now I'd be working out a league table or 'discovering' lost comments by JRRT. If it had been in N&N it wouldn't have mattered, because those topics are supposed to be fairly basic and easy to join. Surely, though, we should be able to expect more from Books, even after all this time, than a simple 'who's best?' thread.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I know I am walking on thin ice, but I do belive that Dwarves did not like to be overshadowed by other races and wanted to prove that they where as capable if not better. Therefor I belive they would have made sure the world knew about the most brilliant of their accomplishments, that is all.

Actually they don't really care what other races think of them. We can see this in the way that they cut themselves off from the rest of the world in their mountain strongholds, and how they keep things to themselves: their language, weapons, history, and knowledge. If they really wanted to have the elves know about them, I seriously doubt that the Silmarillion would be chiefly made up of doings of the elves. The Dwarf philosophy of comparing themselves to others strikes me as this: "Hey, we know were better than those crazy elves or humans, so why bother letting them know about us: it's none of their bussiness! Get away from me!"

As for Dwarves being more powerful than elves, I think I've finally found a fitting referance that is worthy of their skill.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion: The Fifth Battle

Last of all the eastern force to stand were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armor was not fool proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghal and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirge in deep voices, as it was a funeral pomp in their country, and gave no more heed to their foes; and none dared stay them

This is the only thing that the Noldor had going for them the entire day. When everything went wrong for them the Dwarves kept them from total destruction pitting themselves against the most horrible of all Morgoth's creation: dragons, and drove them from the field. Unlike the elves or men who had nothing going for them that day, the Dwarves succeeded in their duty against all odds, against the mightiest creatures that Morgoth could throw at them, besides the Balrogs.

Dwarves, like Hobbits, are often underestimated because of their size, but they are more determined than any other race in Middle Earth. Most people don't like them because they are too prideful of themselves, well don't they have a right to be? With fighting like that it's pretty hard not to be, just think what other tales of glory that they have kept secret.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Actually they don't really care what other races think of them. We can see this in the way that they cut themselves off from the rest of the world in their mountain strongholds, and how they keep things to themselves: their language, weapons, history, and knowledge. If they really wanted to have the elves know about them, I seriously doubt that the Silmarillion would be chiefly made up of doings of the elves. The Dwarf philosophy of comparing themselves to others strikes me as this: "Hey, we know were better than those crazy elves or humans, so why bother letting them know about us: it's none of their bussiness! Get away from me!"

Strangely enough, that's one of the things which I like most about them.

Dwarves, like Hobbits, are often underestimated because of their size, but they are more determined than any other race in Middle Earth. Most people don't like them because they are too prideful of themselves, well don't they have a right to be? With fighting like that it's pretty hard not to be, just think what other tales of glory that they have kept secret.

I've always had the impression (perhaps from other fantasy media) that while dwarves are only about 5' tall, they still weigh about 150 lbs of solid muscle. If they were 6 footers, they'd be built like The Hulk.

Combine that with their stamina from years of splitting rocks and forging metal, and you have some very formidable fighters. They remind me of a race of beings who resemble Naim Suleymanoglu:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html...rts/07.22.html

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Strangely enough, that's one of the things which I like most about them.

Yehaw! Am I correct in believing that I have found a person that shares my love for the smallest, yet greatest race in all of Middle Earth? In other words: do love Dwarves like I do?

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I've always had the impression (perhaps from other fantasy media) that while dwarves are only about 5' tall, they still weigh about 150 lbs of solid muscle. If they were 6 footers, they'd be built like The Hulk. Combine that with their stamina from years of splitting rocks and forging metal, and you have some very formidable fighters.

Exactely, never trust and Elf and never underestimate a Dwarf!

Funny that you should mention that, I was reading the Silmarillion today and I came across an interesting paragraph that describes how hardy the Dwarves are made.

Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna

Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aule made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship, and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples...

Just thought that this might be of interest to all of those Elf fans who think that Dwarves are no match for the Noldor.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

As for Dwarves being more powerful than elves, I think I've finally found a fitting referance that is worthy of their skill.

I'm sorry, but I believe you are reading a bit more into the passage than Tolkien intended. Certainly, the Dwarves were brave and deserve their due for fighting the dragon, but you seem to be overlooking some points:

1) There were many Dwarves with Azaghal encircling Glaurung (much like when the Dwarves murdered Thingol). This was not single combat (again, going back to the original premise of the thread).

2) The Dwarves were better equipped armor-wise to withstand the fires of Glaurung.

3) They did not kill the dragon. Azaghal only wounded him with his blade (Turin, a man, did a more complete job of sword thrusting).

4) When their king was killed the Dwarves bore him off the field -- and left. They gave up.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

This is the only thing that the Noldor had going for them the entire day. When everything went wrong for them the Dwarves kept them from total destruction pitting themselves against the most horrible of all Morgoth's creation: dragons, and drove them from the field. Unlike the elves or men who had nothing going for them that day, the Dwarves succeeded in their duty against all odds, against the mightiest creatures that Morgoth could throw at them, besides the Balrogs.

Now, see, that's the problem with confining an entire battle to a single quote. Had you read the previous page of the Sil, you would have found this important information:

Originally Posted by Of the Fifth Battle

Some have said that even then the Eldar would have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful...[and then a paragraph later] Yet neither by wolf, nor Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

So saying that the only thing the Noldor had going for them the entire day was the Dwarves is a fallacy. The deciding factor in Morgoth's victory was the treachery of Men, a point Tolkien reiterated twice. The Dwarves certainly saved the Eastern army of the Noldor after they were decimated by treachery, and deserve renown for their battle with Glaurung, but you have to take the whole battle in context.

And in regards to single combat (aside from Hurin's glorious last stand), there is the battle between Fingon and Gothmog:

Originally Posted by Of the Fifth Battle

Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elvenhosts, surrounding King Fingon...That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind him and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven.

This seems to indicate a fair fight until a second Balrog bound Fingon with fire. Since there really is no noted instance of single combat between a Dwarf and a Noldor, I can only refer you to the Battle of Sarn Athrad, where Beren (an Edain) "fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the Necklace of the Dwarves." If Beren could do such a deed of arms (and he was not even the most renowed warrior of the Edain), I see no reason why Fingolfin, Ecthelion or Glorfindel could not do the same.

[Inziladun]

I'm not generally fond of "who could beat who" threads myself, however this caught my eye

As far as I know, the Ruin of Doriath is the only place where we see Elves and Dwarves fighting one another. It's poor evidence, I know, but if poor evidence is all there is then I'll take it.

I seem to recall a one-on-one dwarf-elf confrontation that I haven't seen yet mentioned: Mîm the Dwarf and Beleg Cúthalion on Amon Rûdh.

Mîm crept out of the shadows of his house; and as the sun rose over the mists of Sirion he stood beside the dead men on the hill-top. But he perceived that not all those that lay there were dead; for by one his gaze was returned, and he looked in the eyes of Beleg the Elf. Then with hatred long-stored Mîm stepped up to Beleg, and drew forth the sword Anglachel that lay beneath the body of one that had fallen beside him; but Beleg stumbling up seized back the sword and thrust it at the Dwarf, and Mîm in terror fled wailing from the hill-top.

Not much of a fight, granted: an old Dwarf and an Elf wounded nearly to death. Yet Beleg simply jumped up and took the sword away. Mîm didn't even have the excuse of being taken by surprise: he knew Beleg was alive. I think it's safe to say that if Mîm hadn't run Beleg would have killed him.

And I would also consider the source. These tales of valor are being written from the point of view of Elves or Men, or even hobbits. We never really get to hear a tale told from the Dwarven point of view. I'm willing to bet they'd sound considerably different!

I can come up with one: ROTK Appendix A-Durin's Folk. The Battle of Azanulbizar where Dáin Ironfoot killed Azog the Orc. All that section ostensibly is drawn from information provided by Gimli.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Yehaw! Am I correct in believing that I have found a person that shares my love for the smallest, yet greatest race in all of Middle Earth? In other words: do love Dwarves like I do?

Let me put it this way: I don't want to live in earth of 2008.

I'd rather live in Middle Earth, sometime in the Third Age, perhaps. Since I'm human and not dwarf, I'd live in a place near dwarves, like outside of the Iron Hills, in Lake Town, or in a homestead near the Blue Mountains, where I could invite dwarves to my table for ale and beef after enjoying ourselves in my forge.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Not much of a fight, granted: an old Dwarf and an Elf wounded nearly to death. Yet Beleg simply jumped up and took the sword away. Mîm didn't even have the excuse of being taken by surprise: he knew Beleg was alive. I think it's safe to say that if Mîm hadn't run Beleg would have killed him.

But he was a petty dwarf. Didn't the elves used to hunt them for fun before they realised that they were sentient?

[Inziladun]

But he was a petty dwarf. Didn't the elves used to hunt them for fun before they realised that they were sentient?

Yes, they did. The Petty-Dwarves, however, were said to have been "banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east." They were exiles, but there is no indication they were less capable in combat than the "civilised" Dwarves.

Beleg also was not Noldorin. That being the case, one might think a Dwarf would have an even more difficult time with the likes of Maedhros or Fingon.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I'm sorry, but I believe you are reading a bit more into the passage than Tolkien intended. Certainly, the Dwarves were brave and deserve their due for fighting the dragon, but you seem to be overlooking some points:

1) There were many Dwarves with Azaghal encircling Glaurung (much like when the Dwarves murdered Thingol). This was not single combat (again, going back to the original premise of the thread).

It seems that you have looked over a couple of facts. Fact: dragons are the fiercest of Morgoth's creation and Glaurung is fiercest of the dragons. The dragon's were all routed and the Dwarves WON!

Originally Posted by Morthoron

2) The Dwarves were better equipped armor-wise to withstand the fires of Glaurung.

I think that is more of a compliment, Morthoron.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

3) They did not kill the dragon. Azaghal only wounded him with his blade (Turin, a man, did a more complete job of sword thrusting).

Azaghal had only a knife while Turin had a sword. Turin didn't exactly face the dragon in a fair fight.

What about Glaurung's gaze? It affected Turin, but doesn't seem to do anything to the Dwarves, how can this be?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

4) When their king was killed the Dwarves bore him off the field -- and left. They gave up.

They didn't give up they did their part. I think that says more about their love for their king than anything else. The passage also says that none dared to hinder them, that description doesn't sound like a people who have given up.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now, see, that's the problem with confining an entire battle to a single quote. Had you read the previous page of the Sil, you would have found this important information:



So saying that the only thing the Noldor had going for them the entire day was the Dwarves is a fallacy. The deciding factor in Morgoth's victory was the treachery of Men, a point Tolkien reiterated twice. The Dwarves certainly saved the Eastern army of the Noldor after they were decimated by treachery, and deserve renown for their battle with Glaurung, but you have to take the whole battle in context.

The passage I chose from the Silmarillion did not downsize the might of the Elves, it emphasized the might of the Dwarves. Like I said before, there is so little known about the Dwarves and I gave that reference as the best that I could find.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

This seems to indicate a fair fight until a second Balrog bound Fingon with fire.

He still got beat. I also dislike the way that people say the things are unfair when people are fighting, you do whatever it takes to survive. You can also use that kind of argument with the Dwarves. Everything could have gone so well for them if Glaurung hadn't "cheated" and use his breath to melt the Dwarves or when he used his gigantic sized to roll over one of them.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Since there really is no noted instance of single combat between a Dwarf and a Noldor, I can only refer you to the Battle of Sarn Athrad, where Beren (an Edain) "fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the Necklace of the Dwarves." If Beren could do such a deed of arms (and he was not even the most renowed warrior of the Edain), I see no reason why Fingolfin, Ecthelion or Glorfindel could not do the same.

The passage does not say that Beren "wrestled" with the Dwarves it just says that he slew them and took the necklace. It also refers to how the cowards chose to kill the Dwarves with bows and not hand to hand, though I am sure that they did fight hand to hand once the Dwarves where low enough in numbers.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yes, they did. The Petty-Dwarves, however, were said to have been "banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east." They were exiles, but there is no indication they were less capable in combat than the "civilised" Dwarves.

They are described as being shorter than a normal Dwarf, that would put them in the same category of height as the Hobbits.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by groin

Azaghal had only a knife while Turin had a sword. Turin didn't exactly face the dragon in a fair fight.

Originally Posted by groin

I also dislike the way that people say the things are unfair when people are fighting, you do whatever it takes to survive

Interesting

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

It seems that you have looked over a couple of facts. Fact: dragons are the fiercest of Morgoth's creation and Glaurung is fiercest of the dragons. The dragon's were all routed and the Dwarves WON!.

They won a skirmish, a section of a battle on one wing. They left before the battle ended. It would be like saying that Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo because he defeated the Prussians at Ligny, and not taking into account Wellington, the Prince of Orange and the rest of the three day battle.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I think that is more of a compliment, Morthoron.

It was never meant otherwise. The masks of the Dwarves seemed impervious to fire, which gave them a distinct technological advantage.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Azaghal had only a knife while Turin had a sword. Turin didn't exactly face the dragon in a fair fight.

Glaurung was surrounded by an army of Dwarves. Azaghal was not in a solo combat situation. The remaining Dwarves did not follow up on their success, a major blunder in any military campaign.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

What about Glaurung's gaze? It affected Turin, but doesn't seem to do anything to the Dwarves, how can this be?

Perhaps when surrounded by heavy axes, there is little time to be proactive and focus power. In any case, one doesn't have a discussion with a dragon, that was Turin's mistake, and Bilbo almost fell under the same error with Samug.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

They didn't give up they did their part. I think that says more about their love for their king than anything else. The passage also says that none dared to hinder them, that description doesn't sound like a people who have given up.

They left an unfinished battle with the outcome hanging in the balance. Certainly none dared hinder them, why would they? They were leaving. They were no longer a factor in the battle.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

The passage I chose from the Silmarillion did not downsize the might of the Elves, it emphasized the might of the Dwarves. Like I said before, there is so little known about the Dwarves and I gave that reference as the best that I could find.

It was an excellent reference; however, it only related a portion of the overall battle. Had the Dwarves followed up their defeat of the Dragons with a further attack (as someone like Patton, Grant or Napoleon would certainly demand), the outcome might have been different. Remember, Tolkien stated on more than one occasion that it wasn't dragons or Balrogs that defeated the Noldor, it was treachery. That does not necessarily mean that the Dwarves shared in the treachery of Men, but it is disheartening (and rather odd, as I have thought for a long time), that the Dwarves simply packed it in when Azaghal died, particularly given their noted thirst for vengeance when a king is killed as evidenced in the War of Dwarves and Orcs.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

He still got beat. I also dislike the way that people say the things are unfair when people are fighting, you do whatever it takes to survive. You can also use that kind of argument with the Dwarves. Everything could have gone so well for them if Glaurung hadn't "cheated" and use his breath to melt the Dwarves or when he used his gigantic sized to roll over one of them.

Do you think Gandalf would have been successful if he had a Balrog before him on the bridge and one behind him, binding him with a thong of fire? Gandalf died against one Balrog, and he was not fighting Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs and Captain of Angband. Would Azaghal have done anything at all against Glaurung had he been without the aid of an army of Dwarves? Hurin lost while hewing numerous trolls, does his eventual defeat somehow diminish his renown? Your premise does not hold water.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

The passage does not say that Beren "wrestled" with the Dwarves it just says that he slew them and took the necklace. It also refers to how the cowards chose to kill the Dwarves with bows and not hand to hand, though I am sure that they did fight hand to hand once the Dwarves where low enough in numbers.

I would suggest the Dwarves would have not been slaughtered if they had not cowardly murdered Thingol in the first place. They surrounded him and murdered him -- a gutless thing to do. And since when is using bows considered cowardly? It is a matter of using technology just as the Dwarves' armor and masks aided them in fighting Glaurung. But I suppose the French felt the same way as they were mowed down at Poitier, Crecy and Agincourt (but I never heard it claimed, even by the French, that someone like the Black Prince or Henry V were cowards). As far as Beren, Tolkien says he slew the Lord of Nogrod (just as Azaghal was Lord of Belegost), and obviously this was a very important Dwarf (he was wearing the Nauglimir), but it is evident Beren didn't have to stab him in the back to do it (one thing you couldn't say about Beren was that he ever commited a cowardly act).

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Interesting

Alright you got me Rune. What I mean is that in the case of Turin necessity overcame the need for an honorable fight. Anything goes when you're locked in combat with someone, but there is a difference between honorable and dishonorable.

Morthoron, I would like to respond to each of your comments that you made about my post, especially the comments when you downsize the might of the Dwarves, but I'm getting tired of this nitpicking at each others posts. Therefore I will say this: The entire Silmarillion is based on the history of Men and Elves with few references to Dwarves, ergo you have a mountain of references to choose from where I have very little (so unfair). I am very unlikely to change your mind, and you are definitely not going to change mine on the matter of the Dwarves. Therefore I'm going to try a knew approach to this.

What do we know of Azaghal? Not very much I'm afraid, the only thing that we can judge him by is by his final moments and that is not anything to go on. If we judged Thingol in his final moments we would indeed think him a fool, or at least I would.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

What do we know of Azaghal? Not very much I'm afraid, the only thing that we can judge him by is by his final moments and that is not anything to go on. If we judged Thingol in his final moments we would indeed think him a fool, or at least I would.

You missed my point entirely, I am not judging Azaghal in regards to his brave last stand; however, I do question the Dwarves under his command who cared more for taking his body off the field and retiring from battle than finishing the fight (and avenging their Lord, which has a precedent elsewhere in Dwarvish history).

As far as Thingol, he was rude and brash and behaved like any absolute monarch (which is not usually a good thing), but the Dwarves had already decided to steal the Silmaril and Thingol divined their purpose. Killing a king was long considered reprehensible even among kingdoms who were at war with each other (Tolkien, seemingly an avid monarchist, would most likely be appalled by such an act of lese-majesty). A truly sly King would have seemed to acquiesce; but as soon as he was able, call his guards and slaughter each and every Dwarf without mercy. It doesn't really matter, it would have led to war in any case.

[Andsigil]

Look. Let's face it: elves may be good fighters, powerful sorcerers, and wise loremasters, but, at the heart, they're still prissy, metrosexual nancy-boys. Dwarves may be short, but they're hirsute, direct, and manly. That makes them better.

(runs and ducks for cover)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Look. Let's face it: elves may be good fighters, powerful sorcerers, and wise loremasters, but, at the heart, they're still prissy, metrosexual nancy-boys. Dwarves may be short, but they're hirsute, direct, and manly. That makes them better.

(runs and ducks for cover)

Ummm...wow.

*Considers Andsigil's rather bellicose statements*

Hmmm...I don't see how one can consider Dwarves 'manly' (a contradiction in any case), because they have virtually no females (and evidently no interest in them if they had some) -- poor Dis being the one and only Smurfette mentioned among the Smurfish Dwarves (well, they did come from the Blue Mountains, didn't they?). Unless, of course, you mean manly in the sense of The Village People:

Young dwarf, there's no need to feel down
I said, young dwarf, cos' you live underground
I said, young dwarf, pile your gold into mounds
There's no need to see sunlight

Young dwarf, why don't you leave Erebor
I said, young dwarf, go to Hollin's Door
I said, young dwarf, take your axe off to war
There's some Orcs to be-head

It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A
It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A

You can mine for mithril and make marvelous toys
You can hang out with all the boys

It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A
It's fun to stay down in M-O-R-I-A

You can stuff yourself like a drunken hog
Just don't you wake up the Balrog...etc.

[Andsigil]

What are you talking about? Is this hot, or what?



As for the manliness of the elves, let's read the secret diary of Legolas:

Day One:

Went to Council of Elrond. Was prettiest person there. Agreed to follow some tiny little man to Mordor to throw ring into volcano. Very important mission - gold ring so tacky.

Day Four:

Boromir so irritating. Why must he wear big shield like dinner plate all the time? Climbed up Caradhras but wimpy humans who cannot walk on snow insisted we climb back down.

Am definitely prettiest member of the Fellowship. Go me!

Day Six:

Far too dark in Mines of Moria to brush hair properly. Am very afraid I am developing a tangle.

Orcs so silly.

Still the prettiest.

Day Ten:

Gandalf fell into shadow. In other news, I think I am developing a spot on my nose. V. serious situation, as Elven spots likely to last for 500 years or more.

Still prettiest, despite blasted spot.

Day Eleven:

In Lothlorien. Suspect Galadriel may be prettier than me.

Also, am quite sure she copied my hairstyle. I was wearing that same look at least 1,000 years ago. Silly bint. She was most annoyed that I used her mirrored fountain to take a nice bubble bath.

I choose to ignore her claim that my hair clogged her drain. Not one strand of my hair has fallen out in 800 years, why would it start now?

Still prettiest by far.

Day 30:

All this paddling about in boats is hell on my complexion.

Aragorn obviously starting to find Frodo strangely attractive. Sam will kill him if he tries anything.

Still the prettiest.

Day 33:

Boromir tempted by Ring. So tedious. Cannot be tempted myself, as already have everything I want i.e. perfect hair and a butt like granite.

Have been getting very strange letters from someone calling herself "Stacey" who wants to do obscene things to my elfhood. Fortunately have super-duper elf vision so can run away if I see her coming.

Day 35:

Boromir dead. Very messy death, most uncessesary. Did get kissed by Aragorn as he expired. Does a guy have to get shot full of arrows around here to get any action? Boromir definitely not prettier than me. Cannot understand it. Am feeling a pout coming on.

Frodo off to Mordor with Sam. Tiny little men caring about each other, rather cute really.

Am quite sure Gimli fancies me. So unfair. He is waist height, so can see advantages there, but chunky braids and big helmet most offputting. Forsee dark times ahead, very dark times.

[Groin Redbeard]

OK, everyone's beginning to act screwy!

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You missed my point entirely, I am not judging Azaghal in regards to his brave last stand; however, I do question the Dwarves under his command who cared more for taking his body off the field and retiring from battle than finishing the fight (and avenging their Lord, which has a precedent elsewhere in Dwarvish history).

Good point here, but vengeance can be dealt out in more ways than one. My theory would be that the anger of the Dwarves was so great that it could not be directed at just the Orcs, actually I think it would be more out of love for Azagha but I'll let you decide. It was the Elves who led them to this battle and in the end they are blaming the Elves for something they couldn't prevent, therefore the best way to avenge their king is to leave the Elves to their own fate. A rather rash decision on their part but logic almost never prevails when you are overcome with grief.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as Thingol, he was rude and brash and behaved like any absolute monarch (which is not usually a good thing), but the Dwarves had already decided to steal the Silmaril and Thingol divined their purpose. Killing a king was long considered reprehensible even among kingdoms who were at war with each other (Tolkien, seemingly an avid monarchist, would most likely be appalled by such an act of lese-majesty). A truly sly King would have seemed to acquiesce; but as soon as he was able, call his guards and slaughter each and every Dwarf without mercy. It doesn't really matter, it would have led to war in any case.

True it would eventually have led to war, but both parties were in the wrong. You forget that it was Thingol who lusted to the necklace of the Naugrim as well as the Silmaril.