The Valar and Illuvator's Children

[Groin Redbeard]

This is something that has always bothered me, and I don't know if Tolkien has ever expounded on it or not. Do the peoples of Arda worship the Valar as the gods of nature and Illuvator as the supreme god? I picture the everyone worshipping the Valar as the Greeks, or Romans, would worship their gods. This would explain why the dwarves worship Aule as their primal god, since they are both great smiths (besides the fact that it was Aule that created the dwarves). The Numenorean's were great sailors. If this would then be the case then Valarie that the Numenorean's worship would be Ulmo or Osse?

The other option, which I think is less favorable, is that everyone worships the true god of Illuvator with the Valar being sub-gods. This would give favor to Tolkien's Catholic background, with Jesus being their true savior (just like Illuvator) with dozens of saints that god blesses to do his holy work on earth (sort of like the Valar, or the Istari). Though I must warn you that I'm not Catholic, so I'm not an expert on any of this by a longshot, and I'm sure I am messing this point up somehow.

What do y'all think about this?

[Eönwë]

Well, it says in the Silmarillion that the Valar are thsoe who "men call the gods", or something like that, so I think that explains some.

But the Numenoreans worshipped Ilúvatar, before they were turned to Melkor-worship.

[Aganzir]

I have always imagined it in the Catholic sense - Ilúvatar () was the main god whereas the Ainur were more like angels or saints. I'm not Catholic either, but to my understanding they pray not only to God but saints as well? Just like mariners called upon Uinen on stormy seas.

edit cause I'm not going to double post because of this, but there's also just one L in Ilúvatar.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I have always imagined it in the Catholic sense - Ilúvatar () was the main god whereas the Ainur were more like angels or saints. I'm not Catholic either, but to my understanding they pray not only to God but saints as well? Just like mariners called upon Uinen on stormy seas.

Yes, I imagined it in that way too. I am not Catholic either (is that a compulsory sentence on this thread or what?), but as far as I know it's so that the saints represent the "victorious church", the ones who already have finished their mortal life, and fulfilled it in the best possible way, and whose intercessions from "back there" can help those who are still here. And most of the saints were given something to patronise, usually the thing they were connected to in their life. So, it's not exactly the thing about Valar, but it's similar in the basic way that you have someone who is close to the particular subject and so you can turn for him to help when it comes to that subject. From the in-ME-point of view, the Valar were actually even the ones who took the main part in making certain things, for example: Ulmo - water. This way, you could turn on Ulmo if you had any problems and requests concerning water, because he is the one who has the most insight into it, as he was the one making it. And maybe actually, from the in-ME-point of view, the Valar are the ones to ask for such things (at least these "material" things) rather than Eru himself. You would worship Eru as the supreme god and creator, but if you wish to pray for rain (or thank for rain) for your Haradian colony, you turn for example to Manwë and not to Eru. And when you have the rain and wish your plants to grow, you turn for example to Yavanna in turn. Always whoever is the one for the resort. I would actually compare the Valar to the government, to the "executive". Ministry of water, ministry of plants, and such. And each is responsible for his sector, with Eru above them all (with Manwë and Varda as the more prominent among the ministers).

[Morthoron]

As a lapsed-Catholic (or, as probably most ex-Catholics -- one who came to his senses once I actually gained some sense to come to), I honestly have never felt Tolkien's work had the catholicity some folk (and even Tolkien himself) implied. Certainly, the overarching modes of morality and ethics in Tolkien's cosmology have their roots in Catholicism (good works, mercy, redemption, ultimate Truths, etc.), but the manner in which the Numenoreans 'hallowed' Eru, and to a lesser extent the Valar, did not strike me as being necessarily Catholic. I say 'hallow' rather than 'worship', because what rites the Numenoreans had were simple (and held only three times per year), and there was not the sense (to me, anyway) of Sunday-cathedral-epistolary-incense censer divine worship, but more of, shall we say, respect and reverence for authority, and thanksgiving and remembrance rather than adoration and abject devotion -- more of a Celtic pagan rite than a dogmatic and ritualistically Catholic observance.

And that is what I think sets Tolkien's applicability apart from the intrusive allegory of C.S. Lewis. One doesn't feel they are being proselytized to. One is clearly given a creation theory in keeping with the Christian bible (right down to Milton's Lucifer mirrored in Melkor, save perhaps not so stuffily Puritan), but the manner in which it is written has such a wonderful patina of Old World mythology that the cosmogony of Tolkien lives and breathes with its own soul. We have Eden and arch-angels, the devil and the great flood, but it is told in such a manner that agnostics enamored of Odin rifle through the pages as readily as anyone wearing a scapular or counting the stations of the cross on the rosary.

Religion is relatively latent in Middle-earth; in fact, the use of the word 'worship' is more readily assigned to the seething masses who prostrated themselves before the images of the false Lord of the Earth in the Cult of Morgoth, and sacrifices and other religious facades are left to Sauron and his funerary pyre that scorched the golden dome of Morgoth's Temple.

[doug*platypus]

Following on from what Morthoron has said about religion being "relatively latent in Middle-earth", there is only one instance of religious ritual in LOTR - when Faramir and the Rangers of Ithilien turned and faced west in a moment of silence before eating:

'So we always do,' he said, as they sat down: 'we look towards Númenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be.'

Before the fall of Númenor, I believe the Númenóreans had a place hallowed to Ilúvatar. But I cannot recall for example any instance where the Dwarves "worshipped" Aulë. The elves certainly reverenced the Valar, in particular Elbereth, but I don't believe this ever approached what one in today's terms would call worship.

In the existence of both an omnipotent, single creator as Ilúvatar, as well as that of lesser Valar, each with a realm so to speak of which they were in charge, Tolkien may have been trying to posit through his mythology how monotheism and polytheism could exist in the world. Imagine for a moment that his fiction was actually fact. It could account for why monotheist religions such as Christianity, Judaism or Islam pray to a single, omnipotent creator (as one exists in the form of Ilúvatar) as well as how polytheist forms of belief such as the Greeks and the Norse could have a pantheon of gods, each with their own realm (as Poseidon for the sea or Thor for thunder etc). The only beliefs which would not be encompassed by Tolkien's mythology would be certain eastern philosophies without god(s).

In Maori cosmology, there are atua who have different realms as for the Greeks, for example Tane for the forests. Atua is translated somewhat incorrectly as god; Maori do not "pray" to the atua as say a Christian or a Muslim would pray to God or Allah, but there do exist invocations or rituals when these atua are to be addressed or placated, for instance in pre-European times when a large tree was to be felled for the building of a waka (canoe). It seems to me the same relationship exists between the people of Arda and the Valar.

[Groin Redbeard]

Thanks for the insight and spelling corrections Aganzir and Eonwe!

Thanks for brining that up Legate. So Ilúvatar would be worshipped as the creator, but the Valar would be to whom the people would pray to for certain things?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Religion is relatively latent in Middle-earth; in fact, the use of the word 'worship' is more readily assigned to the seething masses who prostrated themselves before the images of the false Lord of the Earth in the Cult of Morgoth, and sacrifices and other religious facades are left to Sauron and his funerary pyre that scorched the golden dome of Morgoth's Temple.

So the people don't acknowledge the existance of Iluvatar, or at least don't revere him as their creator? If the term of "worship" would be applied to the people who honor Morgoth, then what word would best describe those who honor the Iluvatar and the Valar?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

So the people don't acknowledge the existance of Iluvatar, or at least don't revere him as their creator? If the term of "worship" would be applied to the people who honor Morgoth, then what word would best describe those who honor the Iluvatar and the Valar?

First, the vast majority of folk in Middle-earth do not even recognize Iluvatar as a deity. This is true of the Hobbits and the majority of men outside those who retain some Numenorean heritage (the dwarves revere Mahal, but there is no evidence of any formal form of 'worship', and certainly no mention of Eru). Even in Gondor, it seems those with the most knowledge of all things Numenorean, the Stewards for instance, don't seem to 'worship' Iluvatar on a regular basis. A good example was brought up by doug*platypus (such a strange pen-name for such an erudite poster), when he referred to Faramir (of whom the blood of Numenor held most true, and was scholarly in any case) and the Rangers of Ithilien turning and facing west in a moment of silence before eating:

'So we always do,' he said, as they sat down: 'we look towards Númenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be.'

Let's study this quote, shall we? It seems to me that Faramir is 'revering' that which was, not so much as 'worshipping' that which is. It is a rememberance, not a solemn rite of worship in a Catholic sense (or in a Muslim or Jewish sense, for that matter). People are not prostrating themselves, kneeling, chanting words of praise (save in the Elvish words to Elbereth) or praying for whatever it is that they want but don't have (be it rain for crops, or a nice, new shiny sword to bash infidels with).

Again, Tolkien rather masterfully imbedded a Catholic sense of virtue and morality in his story without the overt and unctuous need for formal religion, which would have degraded the plot from a mythological standpoint (tending it more towards direct allegory), and would have alienated many a reader who would prefer not being proselytized to (missionary zeal does not usually play well in works of literature). In fact, the greatest emphasis on formal religion is completely in the negative: the Cult of Morgoth in Numenor. Here we have a centralized temple, sacrifice and frightened masses crowded in like cattle to worship (or else face divine, and, as is ever the case with formal religion, earthly retribution).

So, as is ever my circuitous method in reply to a seemingly simple question (but which is far more complex), I would say Numenoreans 'revere' Eru (revere being defined as 'to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor', rather than 'worship' him (and worship being defined as 'a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual, and extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem'). I may be splitting hairs here, but it is different to be reverential or respectful of something, than it is to be worshipful or adoring of something.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In Letter 153 Tolkien says:

As for 'whose authority decides these things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods.' But they are only created spirits -- of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels -- reverend, therefore, but not worshipful. [footnote:] There are thus no temples or 'churches' or fanes in this 'world' among 'good' peoples. They had little or no 'religion' in the sense of worship. For help they may call on a Vala (as Elbereth), as a Catholic might on a Saint, though no doubt knowing in theory as well as he that the power of the Vala was limited and derivative. But this is a 'primitive age': and these folk may be said to view the Valar as children their parents or immediate adult superiors, and though they know they are subjects of the King he does not live in their country nor have there any dwelling. I do not think Hobbits practiced any form of worship or prayer (unless through exceptional contact with Elves). The Numenoreans (and others of that branch of Humanity, that fought against Morgoth, even if they elected to remain in Middle-earth and did not go to Numenor: such as the Rohirrim) were pure monotheists. But there was no temple in Numenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the Mountain, the Meneltarma or Pillar of Heaven, was dedicated to Eru, the One, and there at any time privately, and at certain times of publicly, God was invoked, praised, and adored: an imitation of the Valar and the Mountain of Aman. But Numenor fell and was destroyed and the Mountain engulfed, and there was no substitute. Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful who had not adopted the false religion nor taken part in the rebellion, religion as divine worship (though perhaps not as philosophy and metaphysics) seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir's remark on 'grace at meat.'

To that, I might add a view of my own, about this being a "primitive age": when one lives in a world in which there are living beings who once saw and spoke with and knew "the gods," one might be apt to have little need for a formal religion, as Morthoron defined it, a system of set beliefs and rites. "Religion" as such might well be far more personal, as the people of that time are not so far removed from a literally personal relationship with beings who are the appointed authorities under Eru Himself. When Tolkien does talk about such set practices, it seems that he always refers to them as "cults" (as he does when he speaks of the Blue Wizards, and how their influence in the East might well linger in cults of "black magic"). The times of public worship on the Meneltarma (Eruhantale, for instance) are, if I recall correctly, merely an assembly of the people who keep reverent silence while the king offers thanks to the One. The Dwarven reverence of Aule has, to me, always seemed like that of descendants toward a revered and much respected forefather, the one with whom their line began. The closest thing to a set prayer or hymn that I recall is the Elven song to Elbereth, which, as we see in Sam's use of it in Mordor, is probably quite open to personal reinterpretation by the individuals who call upon her for help.

Oh, and as yet another former Catholic (so former, I suspect I'd've been excommunicated as a heretic and apostate if I'd stayed in the church ), I've always felt the Valar and Maiar were presented much as Tolkien later said, as saints and angels -- more angels than saints, I think, since they are not and never were human, but of another kind entirely, and they are called upon much as Catholics (at least from what I remember ) called upon saints and angels, to intercede for them, either within their own limited powers, or as intermediaries between the living incarnates and God (a role I think they fulfilled when Manwe, in apparent response to pleas from the faithful in Numenor, called upon Eru Himself to act on their behalf against the rebellious Ar-Pharazon and his followers).

All just my nickel's worth (inflation, y'know ).