The Witch-King

[Nikkolas]

I'm new. Hey all.

I've long liked the character of the Witch-King and yes, I got into LOTR because of the movies. But I'm starteing to try and learn all i can of the true LOTR-verse depicted in J.R.R.'s writings. It's a large complex mythos and I want to understand some things better.

I know the Witch King is just a man and thus can not compete with Maiar be they Gandalf the White level or way lower.

However, how strong is he in terms of the beings below that level? Is he at least the strongest man ever on Middle-earth? If he was indeed one of these "great kings" of the Númenóreans, a race I hear Sauron himself feared, would it not stand to reason that with all those powers plus those he gains in his wraith unlife that he is a bit more powerful than he is usually given credit?
I saw this topic and it looks like he's ranked at the absolute bottom of everyone. I know as I said he's not close to Morgoth (at his higher levels anyway) or Sauron but still, kinda destroying my vision of a powerful second-in-command to Sauron with him being so low.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Greetings, Nikkolas! May you find peace in the books more than in the movies. (Evil laughs)

I'm not too sure whether the Ol' Witchking's a Numenorean, though I do remember that the named Nazgul at the beginning of the book was an Easterling. (Don't trifle with Easterling either just cos they seemed to be at the short end of the stick... Easterlings served the first dark lord Morgoth, the master of Sauron,)

Numenoreans were great. But Black Numenoreans had inbred with the Haradrims when the Numenoreans first colonized the Bay of Umbar. (That's where the corsairs of Umbar came from) I would presume that without Sauron's special power, the innate power of the ol' ghoul may not be all that great...

[Nikkolas]

So when he became Lord of the Nazgul and second to Sauron, would he be ranked as the strongest Man ever on middle-earth? Or up there anyway?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

So when he became Lord of the Nazgul and second to Sauron, would he be ranked as the strongest Man ever on middle-earth? Or up there anyway?

When he became a Nazgul the WiKi ceased to be a man and was instead a conduit of Sauron's power via the Ring; so, there is no comparative basis between the WiKi and warriors such as Aragorn and Elendil. Considering he was defeated by a shield-maiden of Rohan and a Hobbit (no matter the extenuating circumstances), it leaves something to be desired as far as overt power (but then Smaug was defeated rather easily as well *shrugs*). He certainly believed he was unbeatable, even challenging Gandalf (not the silly masquerade of the movie, but rather a standoff and no direct confrontation -- that aspect will remain conjectural); however, it must be said that Wiki twice fled from the wrath of Glorfindel, so perhaps there is a basis for comparative strengths in that case. Or not. Your guess is as good as mine.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Did the Nazguls really ceased to be Man? Its said that they faded. Seems pretty dubious whether they really "died" and became ghosts. On the physical nature of spirits, Tolkien seems pretty clear. Houseless spirits could not wear Rings. Sauron in spirit form could not rescue his Ring after being cut off by Isildur. He must transform into a more tangible form before physically being able to interact with objects. Even the spirits of dead Elves only reincarnated as Elves, with the exception of Luthien (But then, that was Eru's call). The Nazguls were never Maia; so they could not transform into, say, Huge Red Eyeballs.

The spirits of Edain were said to be beyond the Fate weaved by the Music of Ainur anyway... a gift of the Illuvator. Unless there's prove otherwise that Sauron's power extend beyond death (Quite a feat! Hurin taunted Morgoth that he could not enslave Man's spirit beyond the circles of the world), I'd say that the powers of a Nazgul's its own, albeit increased somewhat by Sauron.

Oh yes, back to the question. WK was undoubtedly the chief instrument of Sauron, probably something of the Right/Left index finger. I'd suppose WK's second in power only to Sauron among his slaves. Yep, even the mighty Oliphaunts probably give him a wide berth... But among the Free People... Hard to determine, since he got killed in direct combat by some two-penny worth of a girl and a sprinkling of midget with hairy feet...

"Keep out: Black Breath" - WK's lodge

[Nikkolas]

Does anyone happen to have the passage (I know I've read it) where Gandalf comments on a possible confrontation with the Witch-King? I believe he was rather grim about it and not at all confident of absolute victory.
Way some make it out to be, Gandalf could kill him with total ease.

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

Does anyone happen to have the passage (I know I've read it) where Gandalf comments on a possible confrontation with the Witch-King? I believe he was rather grim about it and not at all confident of absolute victory.
Way some make it out to be, Gandalf could kill him with total ease.

Is the one your thinking of when Frodo and Gandalf are in Rivendell and, after Frodo is shocked by the revelation that Gandalf was held captive by someone, Gandalf replies along the lines that there are many powers in the world, some greater than himself, and some he has not been tested against, but that his time is coming as the Morgul Lord and his black riders have come forth? Thats in the first chapter of the second book in FOTR, 'Many Meetings', but I'm not sure if its the one you refer too.

[Boromir88]

Nikkolas, first let me welcome you to the Downs, I hope you enjoy it.

Does anyone happen to have the passage (I know I've read it) where Gandalf comments on a possible confrontation with the Witch-King? I believe he was rather grim about it and not at all confident of absolute victory.

I believe you are thinking of when he is speaking with Denethor:

"Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you," said Denethor. "For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?"
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath but his fear was needless. "It might be so," Gandalf answered softly. "But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him....
"Nay, I came rather to guard the hurt men that can yet be healed,..."~The Siege of Gondor

I don't sense any grimness or, nerves in Gandalf. In typical Denethor attitude, he mocks Gandalf for returning. Gandalf answers him with a soft "It might be so," but I take this to not mean Gandalf was in any way scared about facing the Witch-King. Gandalf's soft reply serves to contradict Pippin's expectation. Pippin expects Gandalf to lash out in wrath, but he doesn't, he answers softly. Then Gandalf goes on to flat out tell Denethor, no he didn't leave because he was overmatched... "Nay, I came rather to guard the hurt men that can yet be healed."

Plus, I believe the actual confrontation (if that's what you would want to call it) to be more revealing than anything Gandalf tells Denethor:

...In rode the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax...
"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted....~ibid

After the Witch-King reveals who he really is, throws a couple of insults at Gandalf, does some fancy tricks, after all that:

Gandalf did not move

I think that should answer Gandalf's thoughts on the Witch-King, he might not have been able to beat him (I'll get to that in a bit) but he wasn't afraid of him. Let's not forget Gandalf already took on the Witch-King (and the other 8 Nazgul!) on Weathertop, back in FOTR.

As far as how powerful the Witch-King was...well that's a little harder. His primary weapon (a long with the rest of the Nazgul) was fear. If you weren't afraid of him, he wasn't completely useless, but he was definitely weakened. The Nazgul weren't master swordsman secret police executioners of Sauron. They were most powerful when they were all gathered together, under their captain, and at night, that is when they could inspire the most fear.

However, that fear they inspire, should not be underestimated, because it is a very powerful weapon (and does make them Sauron's most dangerous servants)...especially the captain:

Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded, for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dunedain; and maybe it would still have proved so even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them. But he was away to the north, upon the East Road near Bree; and the hearts even of the Dunedain misgave them. Some fled northwards, hoping to bear news to Aragorn; but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away, and the Black Riders passed into the Shire,...~Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring

A couple things about this, it seems like the Dunedain were slaughtered, and the same outcome might have happened even had Aragorn been with them. The thing to note, however, is the importance of "night" to the Nazgul. The rangers that remained lasted through the day, but once night hit, it sounds like the Witch-King manhandled them.

So, to me, without question, Gandalf is far more powerful than the Witch-King. The Witch-King could not match up to Gandalf. With that being said, that doesn't necessarily mean Gandalf could have defeated the WK, because not everything can be defeated by shear force alone. There is the certain prophecy saying no man would kill him. However, there is a difference between "would not" and "could not."

However one wants to interpret the Witch-King leaving the confrontation with Gandalf at the gates, is up to them. I say the WK realized he was overmatched and left to take care of other business. The WK was arrogant, but not stupid, he knew when he was beaten and when he was, he had a tendancy to flee (as Morthoron notes when he twice fled from Glorfindel). If someone wants to argue the WK left, because Rohan arrived, and like the good commander he was, he had to take care of the more important issue. That is there is suddenly a rather large army that has taken him by surprise, then that argument can be reasonably made. (I would like to get in the last word, however, who was instrumental in Rohan arriving to Gondor's aid? That's right, Gandalf. So not only is Gandalf more powerful, but he proves to be the better commander. )

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I guess all that could be answered of WK's power had ready been said by Boromir88. Fear was always the Nazguls' primary weapon. And yet I wondered whether anyone had tried to stick a sword into the ol' ghoul prior to the Pelenor Fields. Its said that blades become charred just by contact with the WK, not to mention that WK can magically break blades (Frodo's knife). I'd assume that if 10000 Uruk-hais fall on him (as commanded by Saruman), he'd fall...

[Lindale]

Wasn't the sword that Merry used to stab WiKi spiked with a spell or some other enchantment for his (WiKi's) bane? I can't remember if it was made in Arnor or Gondor though... though it's probably in the North, since the realm of the WiKi was in the North.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Wasn't the sword that Merry used to stab WiKi spiked with a spell or some other enchantment for his (WiKi's) bane? I can't remember if it was made in Arnor or Gondor though... though it's probably in the North, since the realm of the WiKi was in the North.

The sword was forged in Arnor, most likely in Cardolan. The dating would be between TA 1300 and TA 1409.