Question about politeness in Aman - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Curufinende · 06-08-2008, 04:16 PM

Hi everyone!

I will be very much grateful, if somebody would like to help me.
It seems to me, to be not very polite: "Then Manwe spoke and said: 'Hearest thou, Feanor son of Finwe, the words of Yavanna? Wilt thou grant what she would ask?" Or else it was a command from highest to lowest?

I am Russian, and my English is not so good, sorry.

Morwen · 06-08-2008, 05:35 PM

Manwe's question doesn't seem impolite to me nor do I think that Manwe is seeking to command Feanor. Manwe simply wants an answer.
Now Tulkas on the other hand does seem prepared to exert pressure on Feanor.

Quote:

Speak O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanna? And did not the light of the Silmarils come from her work in the beginning?

Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor

Formendacil · 06-08-2008, 09:02 PM

It might help is you could clarify more precisely what aspect of Manwë's questioning strikes you as possibly impolite. To my (English-first language) way of thinking, there's nothing odd in the questioning, but perhaps you aren't picking up on the actual wording of the question so much as something like whether or not Manwë should be asking in Yavanna's stead in the first place.

Curufinende · 06-10-2008, 02:31 PM

Morwen

Quote:

Now Tulkas on the other hand does seem prepared to exert pressure on Feanor.

I think so too.

Formendacil

Quote:

It might help is you could clarify more precisely what aspect of Manwë's questioning strikes you as possibly impolite. To my (English-first language) way of thinking, there's nothing odd in the questioning, but perhaps you aren't picking up on the actual wording of the question so much as something like whether or not Manwë should be asking in Yavanna's stead in the first place.

I think Valar had no rights for Silmarils, because Feanor said: "I shall be slain" and nobody of Valar contradicted him. Feanor did not promise to sacrifice his life. Some Russians think Feanor must give Silmarils for Valar and Manwë's phrase was the polite

. When I learned English I had heard that phrase with "will(wilt) you" is not so polites as the phrase with "would you" and is a demand not an appeal. I am sorry I have used a wrong word in my first message.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 06-23-2008, 03:21 PM

I'd say ''will you'' and ''would you'' are equivalent, neither more demanding than the other. But I just queried my significant other, English being her second language, and the first thing she said was that ''would you'' is more polite.

Tolkien would have been aware of the proper distinction, although I'm afraid I must here pass the torch to someone who knows these words better. Wouldst thou, wilt thou...

Perhaps Fordim will show up to help.

Lalaith · 06-23-2008, 03:29 PM

What is also interesting is the use of "thou" rather than "you".
I think it is more intimate, showing a close relationship between Manwe and Feanor.
And yes, would is definitely more polite, in that it implies I think more cajoling from the asker.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 06-23-2008, 05:48 PM

I went and checked out what I seemed to recall about "thee" or "thou" versus "you," and found that my memory wasn't shot. Originally, "thee" was considered a more intimate form of the word, and "you" more formal. Using "thee" in speaking to Feanor would have indicated the wish for a more personal and less formal interaction. The difference between "would" and "will" is more subtle. In this case, they are both being used in a request, but "would" implies a conditional situation (as in "I would if I could"). "Will" does not necessarily mean the question is a command, but it does not have the conditional implications of "would"; it is more straightforward ("will you or won't you"). "Will" could indicate a command, as in "you WILL do this," but Tulkas does use it in a question. I think the difference is that Manwe, because of his nature, is making a gentler (if fervent) request of Feanor; Tulkas, because of HIS nature, is pressing the issue, attempting to get a straight yes or no from Feanor. If that is the case, then their uses of would/wouldst and will/wilt (the latter being simply more archaic forms of the same word) are appropriate. Manwe is being polite. Tulkas is being a bit pushier.

And I would try to translate this, if I remembered more than a few words and phrases of Russian (studied it too long ago, alas

).

Blokdog · 08-16-2008, 01:35 AM

I think manwe just wants an answer. of course he is eager to have these silmarils ( at least one of them ) for he wants the trees to be healed. but if I think right about manwe, I think that he isn't someone to command a lesser person to give up something he wants to keep. tulkas is a bit less "smart" and tries to solve the problem by solving the question for feanor...

06-08-2008, 04:16 PM	#1
Curufinende Newly Deceased Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2	Question about politeness in Aman Hi everyone! I will be very much grateful, if somebody would like to help me. It seems to me, to be not very polite: "Then Manwe spoke and said: 'Hearest thou, Feanor son of Finwe, the words of Yavanna? Wilt thou grant what she would ask?" Or else it was a command from highest to lowest? I am Russian, and my English is not so good, sorry.

06-08-2008, 09:02 PM	#3
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,326	It might help is you could clarify more precisely what aspect of Manwë's questioning strikes you as possibly impolite. To my (English-first language) way of thinking, there's nothing odd in the questioning, but perhaps you aren't picking up on the actual wording of the question so much as something like whether or not Manwë should be asking in Yavanna's stead in the first place. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

06-23-2008, 03:21 PM	#5
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I'd say ''will you'' and ''would you'' are equivalent, neither more demanding than the other. But I just queried my significant other, English being her second language, and the first thing she said was that ''would you'' is more polite. Tolkien would have been aware of the proper distinction, although I'm afraid I must here pass the torch to someone who knows these words better. Wouldst thou, wilt thou... Perhaps Fordim will show up to help. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

06-23-2008, 03:29 PM	#6
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	What is also interesting is the use of "thou" rather than "you". I think it is more intimate, showing a close relationship between Manwe and Feanor. And yes, would is definitely more polite, in that it implies I think more cajoling from the asker. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

06-23-2008, 05:48 PM	#7
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	I went and checked out what I seemed to recall about "thee" or "thou" versus "you," and found that my memory wasn't shot. Originally, "thee" was considered a more intimate form of the word, and "you" more formal. Using "thee" in speaking to Feanor would have indicated the wish for a more personal and less formal interaction. The difference between "would" and "will" is more subtle. In this case, they are both being used in a request, but "would" implies a conditional situation (as in "I would if I could"). "Will" does not necessarily mean the question is a command, but it does not have the conditional implications of "would"; it is more straightforward ("will you or won't you"). "Will" could indicate a command, as in "you WILL do this," but Tulkas does use it in a question. I think the difference is that Manwe, because of his nature, is making a gentler (if fervent) request of Feanor; Tulkas, because of HIS nature, is pressing the issue, attempting to get a straight yes or no from Feanor. If that is the case, then their uses of would/wouldst and will/wilt (the latter being simply more archaic forms of the same word) are appropriate. Manwe is being polite. Tulkas is being a bit pushier. And I would try to translate this, if I remembered more than a few words and phrases of Russian (studied it too long ago, alas ). __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

08-16-2008, 01:35 AM	#8
Blokdog Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15	I think manwe just wants an answer. of course he is eager to have these silmarils ( at least one of them ) for he wants the trees to be healed. but if I think right about manwe, I think that he isn't someone to command a lesser person to give up something he wants to keep. tulkas is a bit less "smart" and tries to solve the problem by solving the question for feanor...