Endless Valinor ?

[R.]

Let me start by saying that i'am brand new to this site. I chose this Tolkien site because it's the most knowledable and correct amongst all others. My question is what's your opinion whether the land of Valinor was endless I mean like the forests and plains. Just wanted to know peoples personal thoughts. Hello and Thanks


Ron

[Morthoron]

No, Valinor is not endless from a continental standpoint. It is bound on the west by Ekkaia (the Encircling Sea) and by the Sea of Belegaer to the east. It's northern extremity is buried in the grinding ice of Helcaraxe.

[R.]

OK but if one were to enter say the Forest of Oromë or the gardens of Lórien. Could they maybe be endless if they chose them to be ?


Ron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Welcome, r.j.c.! Well, as for the "endlessness" of Valinor, while I see what you mean and it will be nice (and I think quite appropriate), it seems clear that even here Valar are bound by the "boundaries of the realm of Arda", so to say. Or to use the Professor's words:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Darkening of Valinor

Though all tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar, and in Valinor there was no winter of death, nonetheless they dwelt then in the Kingdom of Arda, and that was but a small realm in the halls of Eä, whose life is Time, which flows ever from the first note to the last chord of Eru.

Here it concerns mainly the time, but it tells us something about the "place" too. I would say, interestingly, one could probably make a map of Valinor if he wanted to. The reason why those who dwelt there didn't feel tired of it (as the knowledge of it was finite) was probably that the things there were unfading - somewhat like Lothlórien as described in FotR was (however that was only a mere reflection).

[Morwen]

But Iluvatar showed forth his power, and he changed the fashion ofthe world.....the land of Aman and Eressea of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever,..... for Valinor and Eressea were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.

Silmarillion, Akallabeth

Would the geographical boundaries of Valinor still apply after the Akallabeth? If it is no longer in and of the physical world would physical boundaries still apply?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

Would the geographical boundaries of Valinor still apply after the Akallabeth? If it is no longer in and of the physical world would physical boundaries still apply?

It could be, however I would personally believe that it is not so. It was simply "re-located" - we are told that it was hidden, but nothing more than that. Also, it will be "altering the plans of Valinor" - bear in mind that Akallabeth was not originally planned. Had it not happened, Valinor would have remained the same, so altering its geographical boundaries would be also something "out of plan" - and somewhat illogical, I would say.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It could be, however I would personally believe that it is not so. It was simply "re-located" - we are told that it was hidden, but nothing more than that. Also, it will be "altering the plans of Valinor" - bear in mind that Akallabeth was not originally planned. Had it not happened, Valinor would have remained the same, so altering its geographical boundaries would be also something "out of plan" - and somewhat illogical, I would say.

But something like the Akallabeth or the removal of the Undying Lands was achievable only by Eru alone, and he is limitless. So although Valinor certainly wasn't endless before it's removal, it could well be so after. Nothing is impossible for Eru. A limitless livingspace would also be practical, condidering the potential problem of finding apartments for the ever growing numbers of immortal elves coming to live there.

[The Might]

Good idea and I too agree that theoretically it could be possible, but I would rather support Legate's idea that Aman as a continent, as a phyisical place, was not changed but only simply removed from the world.

[Morwen]

If post Downfall Valinor is no longer physically part of Arda, then physical things, the Encircling Sea, the grinding ice of Helcaraxe, no longer define it.

we are told that it was hidden, but nothing more than that.

Valinor's status after the downfall is not a case of it merely being hidden. It had been hidden before in the aftermath of the flight of the Noldor.

The Enchanted Isles were set, and all the seas about them were filled with shadows and bewilderment. And these isles were strung as a net in the Shadowy Seas from the north to the south, before Tol Eressea, the Lonely Isle, is reached by one sailing west.

Silmarillon, Of the Sun and the Moon

Valinor continues to exist as physical place, requiring physical defences that make it (with a couple important exceptions) inaccesible. After the Downfall, "the world was diminished" as Valinor is no longer physically part of it. Only those with the grace to go there may access it as "all roads are now bent". There may have been original rules regarding its physical boundaries, and it seems that one of the reasons that boundaries existed was to preserve Valinor.

..the Valar fortified their dwelling, and upon the shores of the sea they raised the Pelori, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon Earth....Behind the walls of the Pelori, the Valar established their domain in that region which is called Valinor;.... in that guarded land the Valar gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin....

Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days

The original concept of Valinor is as a sanctuary with well defined boundaries that allow for the defence of that sanctuary from threats from the outside physical world.

However, once Valinor is removed from the world and faces no threats, the idea of well defined guarded sanctuary should no longer hold. I don't know that this means that post Downfall Valinor becomes endless but, to me, once you remove it from the physical world whatever plan there was with respect to its boundaries goes out the window.

[R.]

WOW all excellent and insightful opinions thanks very much.


Ron