Noldor Man's saviours?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I just had a though while making a post in another thread about the Noldor; if the Noldor had not left Valinor to fight against Morgoth as they did, resisting him and hemming him in at least for a while, what would have become of Men? Most likely they would have all been corrupted for ever by Morgoth. If they had not stumbled into the fair lands of Beleriand, which were largely built and protected by the Noldor (the Sindar would have soon fallen), then Man's course in History would have ended there. Falling in with the Elves in Beleriand was what enlightened us, and what saved us from corruption and domination by Morgoth.

Most of the other Men in the world were barbaric; the difference in the Edain was the influence and protection of the Eldar. This would not have happened without Feanor's rebellion. It is probable that we would have been lost to evil and misery, had not the Noldor exiled themselves from Valinor.

[aragornreborn]

Hmmm, very interesting thought, Gwaihir. The only thing I have to say lies more in the realm of philosophy rather than in the book itself. I doubt that Tolkien, as a Catholic, would have espoused the idea that for good to happen (the salvation of men), bad must also happen (the rebellion of the Noldor, kin-slaying, etc.). Some of you more knowledgeable folks out there might know otherwise (if so, then I'd have to disagree with the dear professor, but this board is about him, not me, so it doesn't matter). What I think Tolkien meant to convey was that good can/will happen even though evil has occurred. Thus, evil never triumphs, for good can/will always come from it. And that's not to say that either Tolkien or I believe evil is good or evil can be good, but merely that good things can happen as a result of evil things. Providence would have allowed the good to happen even if evil hadn't been done. Somehow, men would have been saved, regardless. But in the case of the Noldor, evil happened. Yet out of the (unnecessary) evil came good. Anyway, great topic, and very well supported. I hadn't thought of that before.

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: aragornreborn ]

[ July 02, 2003: Message edited by: aragornreborn ]

[the phantom]

Yes, the pilgrimage of the Noldor to ME resulted in many good things, the improving of mankind being one of them. Also, the rest of ME was for the most part protected from Morgoth while he was busy with the Noldor. Third, the Noldor weakened Melkor by keeping him in a constant state of war. He spent himself a lot during this time, which made his overthrow less apocalyptic when the Valar came against him.

So it seems that the Noldor coming to ME was a very positive thing. But why was their coming to ME a "rebellion" and "evil". It was only a rebellion because the powers (Valar) were against it. If the Valar wouldn't have been so dead set against them leaving the kin slaying wouldn't have happened. The reason stated as to why the Teleri would not help the Noldor reach ME was it was against the will of the Valar. If the Valar wouldn't have hindered the Noldor by condemning them and asserting their influence over the Teleri to not help them, the flight of the Noldor would not have been an evil thing.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I agree with aragornreborn, the rebellion of the Noldor was not good and therefore was not wanted by Ilúvatar; but, at the same time, this is a good example of how can good come from evil [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[akhtene]

no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost sourse in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. (Eru to Melkor)

It was Eru's initial design that Elves and men dwell in M-E. But the Valar took most of elves away from it. IMHO they were just exercising the power given to them. And probably it made sense initially, as Valinor was the proper place for learning and self-development. But I don’t belive this state of things totally agreed with Eru’s plans. Thus M-E was left unprotected and elves failed their role of ELDER children and guardians of men.

Well, the revolt of Feanor, apart from many grievances it caused, returned the best representatives of elven race - the daring Noldor - back to where they were intended to live. And I believe that Noldor leaving in bitterness made them more ferocious fighters against Morgoth and Sauron, as well as made it impossible for them to escape to Valinor again before their struggle is over.

The Music couldn't be edited.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

ULMO: Thus it may be that good shall come from evil, and that evil was better to have been.
MANDOS: And yet still remain evil. To me shall Feanor come soon.

(My copy of sil is literally falling apart and missing a lot, so this quote is just approximate..)

[of Finwe's remarriage and the birth of Fingolfin and Finarfin].. many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finwe, judging that if Finwe had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Feanor would have been otherwise, and great evil would have been prevented... But the children of Indis too were great and glorious, and their children also; and if they had not lived then the history of the Eldar would have been diminished.

It is true that this idea of good coming from evil is prevailant in Tolkien's works, be he Catholic, like myself, or no. But why should his being Catholic influence this anyway, aragorn? It is through the evil done to Jesus Christ that the Good News comes from. The religion of Christianity is based on this principle. Anyway, Tolkien did not adhere strictly to purely Catholic ideals in his mythology anyway (although Christianity did have a significant influence on them).

Accross the spectrum, good and evil, it is all included in the Music of the Ainur. Feanor's rebellion was not in itself an evil act (in my opinion), although it was a rebellion, but it is true that evil came out of it. The Kinslaying at Alqualonde, and the war that Feanor's house waged against even other Elves, showed Feanor however himself to be certainly a ruthless fingure -- some may say he himself was rather evil, although it does not come naturally to say that about a prince of the Noldor. The distinction between Feanor's personal evilness and the morality of the rebellion itself exists, though. The rebellion was not evil, but evil things came out of it. Then out of the evil came good. Funny order of things, but that seems to be the way it went. Of course, the Music would have sparked it all.

[Kuruharan]

Feanor's rebellion was not in itself an evil act (in my opinion), although it was a rebellion

But it was though. And not just because it was a defiance of the will of the Valar. There was another issue involved, Feanor's greed and possessiveness.

The driving force behind his revolt was his lust for the Silmarils. The whole expedition was founded on impure motives. Nor were the other leaders of the Noldor entirely free from taint. Many of them went East because they wanted to be kings (or queens). This type of quest for self-aggrandizement is little different than some of the motives that drove Melkor.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

The rebellion was a good thing. One could say that there was no rebellion at all: the Valar had no right to constrain any Elf. They could have left any time they wanted.

The invatation for the Elves to live in Valinor caused Middle Earth to...well...fade and was against the plan of Eru.
Even afterwards, when Numenor was raised up for the Edain, Middle Earth returned to the *Stone Age*.
Coincidence?

However, I do not think that Eru would have abandoned his Secondborn to their fates. That is why the rebellion happened. Is it really probable that the Valar would have invited Men to Valinor? I, at least, don't think so.

If the Valar decided to attack Melkor when the Elves were born, why did not they do so when Men were? Arda would have recovered enough from the ordeal of their previous battle by then.

Eru did not reveal the birthplace of Men for Manwe. Any ideas why?

[ July 05, 2003: Message edited by: Aredhel Idril Telcontar ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

'against the plan of Eru...'

It was all in the plan of Eru; as has been said, 'you can't beat the Music'. Eru's 'plan' encompasses everything, including the rebellion.

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me.

Again in answer to Aredhil; Men were part of the Third theme, different from the two others. Illuvitar stopped the vision short, just as the Third theme was beginning, so most of it is hidden from the Valar -- but not Illuvitar, of course. Thus, Men are largely a mystery to the Valar.
But as for the birthplace, that was not revealed to the Valar even for the Elves. Orome had to find them. If it was not told where the Elves would awaken, certainly the location of the first Men would not be known. Otherwise, I am sure, the Valar would have set some kind of guard on it, as they would have done with the Elves had they known that Cuivienen would be their home.

The rebellion was not evil. It was largely done in good faith, i.e. with the object of defeating Morgoth. It was hatred for their foe that drove the red-blooded Noldor to their exile. The oath of Feanor was taken by him and his sons only. It is said that some elven lords, for example Galadriel, went desiring to rule lands in the wide world -- they were already rulers of their people in Valinor. Why is it evil for them to wish to be rulers in Middle-Earth? No doubt they relished the chance to be independent of the Valar. Galadriel was not evil.

Finally, on the topic of the Valar's apparent forsaking of Men. I thought along these lines too up till lately. Has anyone ever considered that the Valar, with the Noldor working with the Sindar to set up fair and glorious kingdoms in Middle-Earth, did not feel that a Battle of the Powers-style expedition was needed for the succour of Men? It was not their purpose to bring Men into Valinor, anyway; that could not be done. The Elves did a pretty good job of saving Men from corruption, whether they were the wandering Avari or Nandor East of the Luin or the Noldor and Sindar West of it. After all, that is the topic of this thread [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. It is true that Middle-Earth was mostly abandoned by the Valar during the First Age (mostly, not entirely), but was their interference actually required for the salvation of Men? It wasn't. (Well, it was eventually, but that was only part of the salvation of the whole world that they brought in the War of Wrath.) Perhaps they judged it so.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Thanks, Gwaihir, you really answered some questions I've been asking myself for a while now.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Really? You are most welcome.