Second kindred of elves??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thalionyulma · 03-07-2002, 06:54 AM

I've just begun The Book of Lost Tales (for the 2nd time)... what's got me confused is why are the Noldoli (which I thought were elves in the first place) referred to as gnomes? are they the same? how are they related to Eldar?

(mebbe I shouldn't have tackled this book juz yet... but I juz had too after reading Unfinished tales!)

Mhoram · 03-07-2002, 08:07 AM

Noldor = Elves

Noldol = Gnomes

Aiwendil · 03-07-2002, 08:28 AM

In the earlier versions of his mythology, Tolkien used the word 'Gnomes' to refer to the Noldoli (Noldor). They were not gnomes in the traditional fantasy sense, but just a subgroup of Elves.

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-07-2002, 08:35 AM

The Book of Last Tales can be even more confusing until you realize that the names of all three kindreds of the Eldar are different from the later Silmarillion.
Comparing the names in the Silmarillion to the ones in Lost Tales, you will find that the Vanyar in Silmarillion are called Teleri in Lost Tales, the Noldor were called Noldoli and Gnomes, and the Teleri of the later legends were the Solosimpi of the older work.
Another name, Inwir, appears, but that seems to merely be the "royal household" of the Vanyar/Teleri.

Mhoram · 03-07-2002, 08:41 AM

" Never have I heard how Beren came thither over the hills; yet he was braver than most, as thou shall hear, and 'twas the love of wandering maybe alone that had sped him through the terrors of the Iron Mountains until he reached the Lands Beyond.
Now Beren was a Gnome, son of Egnor the forester who hunted in the darker places in the north of Hisilome.Dread and suspicion was between the Eldar and those of their kindred that had tasted the slavery of Melko, and in this did the evil deeds of the Gnomes at the Haven of the Swans revenge itself." -The Book of Lost Tales 2, page 9.

*shrugs* I don't know, would have to do a good bit of reading to get a good idea of who and why the name Noldol/Gnome applies to.

***Mithadan*** · 03-07-2002, 08:45 AM

The "root" for gnome and Noldor/Noldoli are related. "Nom" means wisdom and gnome was intended to be based on this root rather than imply the "traditional" representation of gnomes (undersized creatures dwelling in caves).

Mhoram · 03-07-2002, 08:47 AM

So why is it Beren, a man, was called a Gnome?

Telchar · 03-07-2002, 08:57 AM

This can be explained it different ways:
Either it was a simple glitch by JRRT ...or maybe in the very earliest versions of the lay, Beren was considered an elf???

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Telchar ]

***Mithadan*** · 03-07-2002, 11:23 AM

In Lost Tales, Beren was an elf as were many other characters who later became men. Lost Tales was a lost history of the Elves told to Aelfwine after he "accidently" entered the Straight Road and reached Tol Eressea.

Aralaithiel · 03-07-2002, 06:02 PM

Oh good! I wasn't misreading then! I was getting quite as confused as the topic starter. I am a fast reader, and sometimes I do happen to misinterpret what I read! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Thanks guys! You have helped more hapless folk than you realize by sharing your wisdom! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Thalionyulma · 03-15-2002, 05:26 AM

Does that make the Aqualonde, Teleri/Vanyar or a Noldoli/Gnome (ummm, but the vanyar were fair right? the Noldor being dark-haired?) Okay... I'm dizzy now..... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

(Beren was an elf??? maybe I should slowdown a bit before jumping to the next book of lost tales... but JRRT's works are presented in such ways that you actually like looking at all these different "dimensions". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

Mhoram · 03-15-2002, 09:52 AM

Beren was only an elf in Tolkien's earlier writtings.

03-07-2002, 06:54 AM	#1
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	Second kindred of elves??? I've just begun The Book of Lost Tales (for the 2nd time)... what's got me confused is why are the Noldoli (which I thought were elves in the first place) referred to as gnomes? are they the same? how are they related to Eldar? (mebbe I shouldn't have tackled this book juz yet... but I juz had too after reading Unfinished tales!)

03-07-2002, 08:35 AM	#4
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	The Book of Last Tales can be even more confusing until you realize that the names of all three kindreds of the Eldar are different from the later Silmarillion. Comparing the names in the Silmarillion to the ones in Lost Tales, you will find that the Vanyar in Silmarillion are called Teleri in Lost Tales, the Noldor were called Noldoli and Gnomes, and the Teleri of the later legends were the Solosimpi of the older work. Another name, Inwir, appears, but that seems to merely be the "royal household" of the Vanyar/Teleri. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

03-07-2002, 08:45 AM	#6
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	The "root" for gnome and Noldor/Noldoli are related. "Nom" means wisdom and gnome was intended to be based on this root rather than imply the "traditional" representation of gnomes (undersized creatures dwelling in caves). __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-07-2002, 08:57 AM	#8
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	This can be explained it different ways: Either it was a simple glitch by JRRT ...or maybe in the very earliest versions of the lay, Beren was considered an elf??? [ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Telchar ] __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

03-07-2002, 11:23 AM	#9
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	In Lost Tales, Beren was an elf as were many other characters who later became men. Lost Tales was a lost history of the Elves told to Aelfwine after he "accidently" entered the Straight Road and reached Tol Eressea. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-07-2002, 08:07 AM	#2
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	Noldor = Elves Noldol = Gnomes

03-07-2002, 08:28 AM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	In the earlier versions of his mythology, Tolkien used the word 'Gnomes' to refer to the Noldoli (Noldor). They were not gnomes in the traditional fantasy sense, but just a subgroup of Elves.

03-07-2002, 08:41 AM	#5
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	" Never have I heard how Beren came thither over the hills; yet he was braver than most, as thou shall hear, and 'twas the love of wandering maybe alone that had sped him through the terrors of the Iron Mountains until he reached the Lands Beyond. Now Beren was a Gnome, son of Egnor the forester who hunted in the darker places in the north of Hisilome.Dread and suspicion was between the Eldar and those of their kindred that had tasted the slavery of Melko, and in this did the evil deeds of the Gnomes at the Haven of the Swans revenge itself." -The Book of Lost Tales 2, page 9. shrugs I don't know, would have to do a good bit of reading to get a good idea of who and why the name Noldol/Gnome applies to.

03-07-2002, 08:47 AM	#7
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	So why is it Beren, a man, was called a Gnome?

03-07-2002, 06:02 PM	#10
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Oh good! I wasn't misreading then! I was getting quite as confused as the topic starter. I am a fast reader, and sometimes I do happen to misinterpret what I read! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks guys! You have helped more hapless folk than you realize by sharing your wisdom! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-15-2002, 05:26 AM	#11
Thalionyulma Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: across the sea Posts: 295	Does that make the Aqualonde, Teleri/Vanyar or a Noldoli/Gnome (ummm, but the vanyar were fair right? the Noldor being dark-haired?) Okay... I'm dizzy now..... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] (Beren was an elf??? maybe I should slowdown a bit before jumping to the next book of lost tales... but JRRT's works are presented in such ways that you actually like looking at all these different "dimensions". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

03-15-2002, 09:52 AM	#12
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	Beren was only an elf in Tolkien's earlier writtings.