JRRT and film

[Sauron the White]

We spend a lot of time here talking about the fim versions of LOTR and now the upcoming HOBBIT movies. I would like to take a slightly different tact in discussing Tolkien and the movies.

Does anyone know what the attitude of JRR Tolkien was about the subject of movies? I am not referring to his feelings about adapting his own works into film or his famous line about Disney. Did Tolkien go to the movies? How often? What kind of films did he like or dislike? Did he have favorite filmmakers, actors or actresses? Did he take his wife and kids to the cinema?

Can anyone supply answers to this?

[davem]

Humphrey Carpenter mentioned (in a talk at the Church House Bookshop back in '77) taking Tolkien for lunch at a pub to discuss the possibility of him speaking on Radio Oxford, & that among other subjects they chatted about after the meal (like the ending of the Latin Mass after Vatican II) Tolkien spoke with great expertise on the subject of the Marx Brothers.

[Sauron the White]

davem ... and did he like the Marx Bros. movies?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

davem ... and did he like the Marx Bros. movies?

That was the implication - & why would he have such an interest in something he didn't like?

We have to get away from the idea that Tolkien was some old fogey who was opposed to cinema per se. Tolkien seems to have disliked the dramatisation of 'fantasy'/fairy story - in the main because he felt it couldn't be done convincingly (see OFS), & it seems that his opposition to his own work being dramatised was mainly down to it being altered - or 'improved' by a director/producer who thought they could do better.

CT, as I've pointed out previously, helped out the adaptors of the radio series, sending a tape of pronunciations (I've heard the first few minutes of it - entertaining in itself, as well as including some interesting asides) & was also in communication by post - according to Brian Sibley he was aware that some changes were necessary & was accepting of them. If he dislikes the Jackson movies its not because he dislikes movies, but because he dislikes those movies. Listening to his prefaratory comments on the tape its clear he understands the necessity of adaptation for dramatic purposes, & reading Tolkien's comments on the Ackerman script its clear Tolkien himself did too.

So, if your purpose in this thread is to imply that Tolkien disapproved of film dramatisation of his work because he didn't like films its not going to work

He'd heard a(n apparently) dreadful BBC radio adaptation of LotR in the mid fifties & read Ackerman's film script, so he had good reason to take against the idea of dramatisation. Unfortunately, he didn't live to hear the Sibley/Bakewell adaptation, so we don't know his opinion of that. It would be interesting to know what CT thought of it though. As to the Bakshi movie - well apparently Priscilla liked it....

[Sauron the White]

from davem

So, if your purpose in this thread is to imply that Tolkien disapproved of film dramatisation of his work because he didn't like films its not going to work

Actually it was just intellectual curiosity that sparked my question. No hidden motives I assure you. If I attempt to use anything taken from this thread you have my permission (as if you or anyone needs it) to jump all over me and take me to task for it.

It simply occured to me that we talk a great deal about Tolkien and film (meaning the LOTR films) but very little seems to be said about how Tolkien felt about movies in his own time.

I really want to know what he liked and what his film habits were. For what its worth, I too love the Marx Brothers and when I read your first response I smiled from ear to ear. Thinking of JRRT watching the war scenes from DUCK SOUP and then trying to write LOTR --- well, thats quite a picture.

Hoping others have JRRT film stories to tell.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I do have another amusing anecdote that Tolkien himself recorded in a letter to his son Michael (Letters #267, January 1965):

I am neither disturbed (nor surprised) at the limitations of my 'fame'. There are lots of people in Oxford who have never heard of me, let alone of my books. But I can repay them with equal ignorance: neither wilful nor contemptuous, simply accidental. An amusing incident occurred in November, when I went as a courtesy to hear the last lecture of this series of his given by the Professor of Poetry: Robert Graves. (A remarkable creature, entertaining, likeable, odd, bonnet full of wild bees, half-German, half-Irish, very tall, must have looked like Siegfried/Sigurd in his youth, but an A s s.) [Sorry, had to space the last word so it wouldn't get asterisked out - it is the direct quote of Tolkien's own words.] It was the most ludicrously bad lecture I have ever heard. After it he introduced me to a pleasant young woman who had attended it: well but quietly dressed, easy and agreeable, and we got on quite well. But Graves started to laugh; and he said: 'it is obvious neither of you has ever heard of the other before'. Quite true. And I had not supposed that the lady would ever have heard of me. Her name was Ava Gardner, but it still meant nothing, till people more aware of the world informed me that she was a film-star of some magnitude, and that the press of pressmen and storm of flash-bulbs on the steps of the Schools were not directed at Graves (and cert. not at me) but at her...

I left the anecdote in the whole context because I find the descriptive story-telling amusing, because it shows Tolkien's own humility, and because he tells us that he is not very 'aware of the world'. I think it is frequently so that very busy and creative people do not have much time for passive consumption of other creative works unless those are very important, very widespread, or relative to their own field of interest. At any rate he had not heard of (nor seen, obviously) a star of such magnitude as Ava Gardner.

[Mithalwen]

but an A s s.) [Sorry, had to space the last word so it wouldn't get asterisked out - it is the direct quote of Tolkien's own words.]

Of course Tolkien olnly meant he was a donkey - else there would have been an R...