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01-29-2008, 12:04 PM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Dragon's Flame, Magical?
This is a question I've been thinking about lately and I'd like to see what you guys think about it.
It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough. It was also said somewhere in the Silmarilion that the dwarves had built some type of armor that could withstand a dragon's flame. Is dragon fire have magic in it in order to destroy the rings of power? And if that is true does that mean that dwarves can build magical armor?
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01-29-2008, 12:16 PM | #2 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Let me answer to you with a question.
What do you imagine under the term "magical"? It is necessary for anyone who ventures further into the realms of Arda to throw away all his images of "magic" from other fantasy books, films, games (the latter mainly) etc. because magic in Middle-Earth... well, if you ask me, I'd say that it's better to say that there is no magic in Middle-Earth at all, it is at least closer to truth than coming here with the idea of magic one brings in from elsewhere. Galadriel (to Sam; about her mirror): Quote:
Quote:
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01-29-2008, 12:17 PM | #3 |
Guard of the Citadel
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No, I only think that it is really hot.
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01-29-2008, 12:17 PM | #4 |
Woman of Secret Shadow
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I think I've read some fantasy books in which the dragons spit acid instead of fire, and at least to me that sounds a thousand times more credible than fire-spitting dragons.
I'm not particularly sure about Tolkien's dragons (dragons are creatures of which I never bother to find anything out as I don't really like them), but were they fire spirits like the balrogs? If yes, I wouldn't question their ability to spit fire nor to have magical powers (just like Gandalf and Sauron, for instance, had) or even "magical fire". A poisonous acid might explain the dwarves' armours, though. Even if a fire-spitting dragon couldn't melt their armours, the heat would have killed them. It's easier to be safe from acids. edit: crossed with Leggy and Miggy
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01-29-2008, 12:22 PM | #5 |
Leaf-clad Lady
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Interesting question, Groin. Actually, the points you brought up made me think about an additional question. If dragon flame could consume rings of power but not dwarven armour, then is the dwarven mail actually stronger (or rather, more endurant) than a ring of power?
I don't know about magic, though - I'd rather talk about power. The dragons were, after all, beings of a different time, a time when everything was greater, fairer, and younger. I find it perfectly reasonable to think that beings as mighty as the dragons would be able to destroy rings of power. It's the comparison to the dwarven mail thingy that feels problematic. By the way - the passage "but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough" somehow makes me awfully sad. Sorry, Groin - instead of answering your question I just made another. What is this, answering a question with a question? Brings me in mind of Rosencranz and Guildenstern...
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01-29-2008, 12:24 PM | #6 |
Guard of the Citadel
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Oh, xed as well.
As for the armors, this brings to my Science of M-e thread. Not really sure what could be used to make some heat resistand outfit, but as long as some like that exist today I see no reason why the Dwarves would not have been able to make something liek that as well.
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01-29-2008, 12:29 PM | #7 | |
Leaf-clad Lady
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I just cross-posted with, what, three people? Gosh, your thread is popular, Groin...
Oh, and sorry for the flood, but Aganzir's Quote:
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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01-29-2008, 12:29 PM | #8 |
Odinic Wanderer
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I do not think that dragon fire was magical in the sence that it could destroy specially chosen items like ring of power, that otherwise could not be destoryed by fire. It must be (like the might says) that dragon fire is so much hotter than other kinds of fire (save the fire of mount doom) that enables it to destroy mighty/magical objects.
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01-29-2008, 12:29 PM | #9 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
EDIT: x-ed since LG's post I am replying to. Yay, this is almost as a WW game thread!
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-29-2008, 12:36 PM | #10 |
Odinic Wanderer
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This reminds me of the first thread I started. . .
http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12245 |
01-29-2008, 12:39 PM | #11 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 01-29-2008 at 12:47 PM. |
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01-29-2008, 01:12 PM | #12 |
Odinic Wanderer
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If they where just "animals" twisted by Morgoth, what animals where they then?
I have always seen them as creatures like Balrogs or as you say Ents ect. |
01-29-2008, 01:19 PM | #13 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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You did not understand me. See that post I linked to for more. I don't mean that they were animals, but that they were some sorts of "construction from flesh and bone" inhabited by vile spirits. And be careful about mixing Balrogs into it, Balrogs were fallen Maiar. It's a matter of difference in "acquiring" the body; the Balrogs chose their own form and later it degraded and they could not change it anymore, while the dragon and similar spirits were "trapped" in a body prepared for them.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-29-2008, 01:21 PM | #14 | ||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Ahhh, so many questions! EDIT: Maybe these are too many questions for one thread. Let's just stick to the topic at hand.
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I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Last edited by Groin Redbeard; 01-29-2008 at 03:18 PM. |
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01-29-2008, 03:28 PM | #15 |
Guard of the Citadel
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About the mail, considering that it has to be heat resistant I think it also has a lot to do with what it is amde of and not how it is made.
What about a heat resistant alloy? It seems that gold melts at 1064°C so that is pretty much what you would need to destroy the One Ring. Superalloys that are not only quite heat resistant but also have great mechanical strength (making them good for armor) take up to 1100°C. What if dragons were only capable of lesser temperatures? That is an explanation I believe. About the dragons, yes, there certainly were some left. And finally about their origin. In the Silmarillion they are presented as a corrupted stock, another of Morgoth's creations like the fell beasts the Nazgul used in the War of the Ring. However, in a later passage from the Children of Húrin they are called "great spirits", which kind of implies that they, or at least some of them, might be fallen spirits, similar to the balrogs.
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01-29-2008, 03:34 PM | #16 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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Or what if mithril and the One Ring were made of something more heat-resistant we people of these ages of decay do not know anymore?
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01-29-2008, 04:03 PM | #17 | |
Odinic Wanderer
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01-30-2008, 02:55 AM | #18 |
Shady She-Penguin
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I agree with Nogrod and Rune. Unfortunately, I don't have my LotR here and I can't remember the exact quote about destroying the ring in a Dwarven forge (at least not in English ), but however it is phrased, it always sounded to me like Dwarves could make ordinary gold melt, but not the One Ring.
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01-30-2008, 04:27 AM | #19 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I hope no one is suggesting here that The One Ring is as easy to melt as the other Rings, that is one of the basic LotR axioms! I don't see any problem with TM's idea that the dragon fire was hot enough to melt normal gold, and therefore, also the Rings of Power, but the One was held together by something else. I could almost quote that from my memory only, but for the sake of further clarity, here is the whole quote:
Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-30-2008, 04:38 AM | #20 | |||
Leaf-clad Lady
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Quote:
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EDIT: Oh good, x-ed with Legate... Just how popular is this thread, anyway?
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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01-30-2008, 05:30 AM | #21 | |||
Woman of Secret Shadow
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Just to clarify:
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But how did the dragons themselves stand the heat? I would imagine Glaurung had quite a sore throat after burning some trees... I'm rather sure even Melkor couldn't make them as heat-resistant bodies as they needed. Even though they were 'lesser spirits', is there any evidence against the idea that they had 'chosen' their form themselves (though forced by Melkor)? Quote:
Sauron would not have risen to the rank he had, had he not been an exceptionally powerful maia. He was definitely more powerful than the dragons, and thus I find it totally credible that no dragon could have destroyed a ring with Sauron's powers in it. To me, that's a sufficient answer to why dragons couldn't have melted the One Ring, but I'm still rather baffled about dwarven armours.
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01-30-2008, 06:06 AM | #22 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Just to clarify: the Lamps were probably destroyed by the combinated effort of Melkor's fallen-Maia hosts, and with the Trees, he needed the help of Ungoliant.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-30-2008, 06:28 AM | #23 | |
Leaf-clad Lady
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Do I make sense?
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"But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created." |
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01-30-2008, 08:15 AM | #24 |
shadow of a doubt
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Reading Tolkien I had a compelling vision af how Glaurung, the first dragon, was 'made'.
I imagine that on some high cliff up on Thangorodrim Morgoth and his Balrogs had a great reptile bound with heavy iron chains. There, under the dark, starless sky, they would chant a long and powerful spell, summoning a fire spirit of the kind that was corrupted by Melkor in ages past. By his crafts, Morgoth would then command the spirit to possess the struggling creature. When it had successfully done so, the reptile, now Glaurung the father of dragons, could feed on noldorin thralls growing ever larger and more cunning. As for the dragon's fire beeing magical, I think it depends on what you mean by magical. A fire-breathing great lizard with a mind far more powerful than a man's is certainly a 'magical' creature, I would say. The fire itself is merely very hot, I imagine. I also think that the dwarven armours could withstand dragons fire to a certain degree, and from some distance. If a dragon blasted a dwarf from point blank range he would no doubt fry like a marshmallow. Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 01-30-2008 at 01:47 PM. Reason: moderator's modification |
01-30-2008, 08:27 AM | #25 |
Guard of the Citadel
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A Little Green, as long as there is a book out there called "The Science of Middle-earth" I wouldn't be so hasty to discard the whole scientific explanation part. So no, to me you're not making that much sense.
Tolkien was no the kind of person to write stuff without thinking it at least a little bit through and everything there has a certain explanation. Now to the dragon idea, the basic theory in pretty much all newer dragon works is that the fire is only created in their mouths through the mixture of two separate chemical substances. And this makes quite a lot sense. Anything that can be pierced by a sword isn't probably capable of taking that much heat. Thus, a dragon himself wouldn't really need to take that heat himself. Aganzir, indeed good criticism. I had not really taken that into account. As I am not really an expert in material qualities I can't really say what would work, but if workers in foundaries have something like that it could be an idea. Although I don't understand what you mean by "lesser spirits", in CoH they are "great spirits" implying Ainur. And I also see no reason why they should not have been. After all Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar and one of the best smiths. Their weakness is relative.
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01-30-2008, 08:44 AM | #26 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-30-2008, 08:56 AM | #27 | |
Guard of the Citadel
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Indeed, I now realise I was quite hasty there myself.
Especially after finding this (I was actually looking for something to support my idea): Quote:
Still, I am trying to find some explanations.
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01-30-2008, 08:57 AM | #28 | |
shadow of a doubt
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In that movie with dragons in it "Reign of Fire", the fire was caused by a mix of chemicals as you described. I don't think Tolkien imagined his dragons to be anything like those creatures. Last edited by skip spence; 01-30-2008 at 09:31 AM. |
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01-30-2008, 09:50 AM | #29 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Some combination of that idea and (other) chemical reactions could have explained the dragons fire breathing. However, I think there is a misconception here. When Galadriel or the Elves say that there is no such thing as magic, they do so from within Middle Earth itself. However, the land of Middle Earth is magical on itself, there are gods walking around and actively interfering with the life of lesser beings, there are dragons and elves and dwarves and mithril and hobbits.... there are also swords that light up when a special kind of enemy is near, there are stones that allow you to spy on your neighbour and there are pieces of jewlery that will let you, if used properly, dominate all beings in existance. Oh, and little crystals that make elves go insane... and as a side-effect, shine with the essence of light itself Surely there is something magical about that? Even though Tolkien made a great effort to make sure that nothing on his tales could be answered by simply "it was magic" or "a wizard did it" it does not mean that everything can be explained by Real Life logic. To me, Middle-Earth has self-consistency but it does not mean that it has consistency with the Real World. I think this is good enough for a new thread, but my point here is the folowing: Dragon-fire it wasn't magic for Middle Earth. They were probably monsters inhabited by fell spirits of fire and made/corrupted through the craft and cunnign (not magic) of a god-like figure. However, for all real life intents and purposes, it was magic. Like we call magic the tricks of an entertainer at a party when we cannot explain it, but we call it a trick when it is told to us. However, we cannot explain "magic" in Middle Earth because the rules we take for granted here do not quite apply to Middle Earth.
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01-30-2008, 12:19 PM | #30 | ||||
Woman of Secret Shadow
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I have a feeling I'm being rather unclear today. Quote:
But isn't that what we fans must do? Although Tolkien is dead, we are still creating and completing Middle-earth, no matter if all we do is to try to find logical solutions to things that don't make sense otherwise. Quote:
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01-30-2008, 01:21 PM | #31 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow Last edited by Groin Redbeard; 01-30-2008 at 01:26 PM. |
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01-30-2008, 01:56 PM | #32 | |||
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01-30-2008, 01:59 PM | #33 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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But you're right Estelyn , I do seldom fully read other peoples posts.
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I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow |
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01-30-2008, 02:02 PM | #34 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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But that quote from the book does say something about the other rings - read the sentence that begins with "It has been said..." Apparently dragon fire (though not of the cooler dragons existing at the point of time the War of the Rings took place) could melt the other Rings of Power, but not even the strongest (dragon) fire could melt the One Ring.
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01-30-2008, 07:49 PM | #35 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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the two kinds of dragon fire
First a question, since all of the rings of power are accounted for at the beginning of the LOTR (the nine men's are on the nazgul, the seven dwarves are in sauron's keeping the three eleven are on Elrond's Gladriel's and Gandalf's fingers and the one is in Frodo's keeping) how exactly does anyone know that dragon fire will melt the lesser rings?
on the main note of this post I seem to recall that there were two kinds of dragon fire in ME. Most dragons fire was red-orange-yellow and I tedn to think that this was simply ordinary fire. But I beive tolkein said that some dragons could also breathe Green flames. Since fire does not, under normal circumstaces burn green (unless the dragons were eating a LOT of copper salts) I think that those flames may have had some sort of additonal power and could be considered "magic" in some manner." As for the Dragonproof armor of The Dwarves I've always just assumed that dwarves, being wise in nature of minerals simply know where to find asbestos and how to wave it into fireproof cloth which could be incroprted into armor. I also seem to recally that a key part of the armor was metal scrresn over the visors which gave the dwarves the advatage of being able to see through the dragons fire without buring their faces off |
01-31-2008, 05:38 AM | #36 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-31-2008, 06:00 AM | #37 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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But heat alone can't make fire turn green; the color/heat pattern for fire is the same one (quite logically) for magnitute of stars. From coolest to hottest it goes- red,orange,yellow, white, blue-white. Fire can't burn green witout help
But thanks for the ring clarification, that would explain how people know that dragon fire melts rings |
01-31-2008, 06:25 AM | #38 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Oh yes, of course (silly diletant )
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
01-31-2008, 11:54 AM | #39 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Alfirin, thanks for mentioning the green dragon fire. I think ya'll have just answered my questions!
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01-31-2008, 02:24 PM | #40 | |
Flame Imperishable
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Morgoth is like an inventor. If he creates dragons that are made to destroy, they destro. Their fire goes under the same rule. It is obviously very hot and the green flames maybe mean that something is special in that fire that is not the same as in normal fire. Glaurung almost destroyed Gondolin by himself. ALso, how can you compare dragons to animals? (and I mean the regular type). Here dragons can talk and think, and if I remember correctly, hypnotise people just by people looking in their eyes. That takes some brainpower. The fire is obviously very hot, but mithril armour, in its nature, is magical to us. It may have had a very high melting point. The rings, once made, could not be destroyed by the same heat that would melt gold, because they were infused with magic/power of an Ainu. This would mean that it would require more magic/power to destry it. Magic vs magic. And since the dragons were made to destroy, the rings would melt. But the one ring was made not to be destroyed, or a t least, Sauron infused it with so much magic that nothing except him, or the heat which made it (And could melt it in the first place) could destroy it. So, as previous people havesaid, dragon magic is magic for us, but not in ME. They were made to destroy so they destroy*. *this might be a bit irrelevant but it might be like a placebo. If you think you are better, you are better. If you think you can destroy a ring of power you can. There was once a man who held up a truck for a hours, until an ambulance came to save the person trapped inside. When you need to do something, your body finds away to do it.
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