A Request for Vacation Assistance

[obloquy]

I'm hoping for a little help. In April and May, my wife and I will be visiting Europe for the first time. We're planning to see Stockholm, Hamburg (and outlying areas), Brussels, Paris, London, and Ireland (we have not decided on more specific Irish destinations just yet). I can find info online about big tourist attractions, but what I am looking for from Downers is personal experience with, primarily, pubs, and also other hangouts that are highly regarded by natives. If anyone would like to chat, I'm on AIM at acleverepitaph or gmail at momeraths@gmail.com.

We won't be seeing everything by a long shot, and our time in some of these locations will be pretty limited, so we're also open to any other must not miss suggestions.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

oblo, London has been the site of several Downer meetings; I'm trying to remember the name of the wine cellar in which Squatter, Bêthberry and I met a couple of years ago. It was a very unique atmosphere, and we had a good time there! One of my favorite places in London is the South Bank of the Thames - that's where Shakespeare's rebuilt Globe Theatre is located, and it's a lovely walk, especially on the weekend when lots of performers etc. are there.

More to come as it occurs to me...

[Lalwendë]

In London I always recommend avoiding the junk like Madame Tussauds and instead seeing interesting stuff like the Cabinet War Rooms as it's a unique place and extremely well set up, but it depends if you have any interest in WWII The Tate is better than the National Gallery if art is what you want.

The British Museum is great too, but it's ridiculously big so well worth working out what you want to look at in there before you go - I like the weird obscure stuff like Dr John Dee's alchemical instruments (seen one mummy, seen 'em all...). The pub opposite the main gates, The Museum, is where Karl Marx used to have a beer (less tourists in an evening). I personally liked The Sun on Drury Lane, as it's more of a back street boozer and where Oliver Reed used to drink Pubs in London are generally one of the best things about the place. Good pubs in Soho too. Otherwise I'd say make sure you get up to York as it's way more interesting and picturesque (it also has hundreds of pubs of course...).

Beer:
http://fancyapint.com/index.html
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs...county/London/
http://www.randompubfinder.com/
http://www.london-drinking.com/

[Mithalwen]

Currently Venice of the north isn't it Lal

Anyway a lot depends on what you are interested in - personally I would give a lot of the big museums a miss since they often contain stuff similar to other major museums in the world and I generally feel (unless you have a special interest of course) that it is more important to see London and Paris than to see their collections of Egyptology for example... go and see the stuff that is unique to the country is possible... In Paris I would say go to the Louvre for the fantastic pyramids - well I love them (my dad called them "an abortion" ) and go in for the Mona Lisa if you must .

I am probably a philistine but after all the hype it is rather an anticlimax to discover that it is just very small brown painting hanging on a wall. Personally I would rather avoid it and spend the time at the Musee Rodin - the sculptures have so much impact and some are heartstoppingly lovely or at the Musee de Cluny which houses the Lady and the Unicorn tapestries. Both are small museums in historic buildings and display genuine french culture. Of the higher profile museums The Musee d'Orsay has the Impressionist collection which may not be a big draw considering how many fine collections of them are in the States but it gives a fine view of the Seine. Personally I wouldn't bother going up the Eiffel tower - the best view of Paris is from the Sacre Coeur (and you don't have to look at it from there! - don't go in unless you have a penchant for concrete interiors and religious themed tat).

Notre Dame and the Ile St Louis are great places to explore. My restaurant knowledge is more than a decade out of date alas but the Latin Quarter was usuallly the best bet....

[Lush]

If you like graveyards (and what Downer wouldn't, har har) - walk through the Pere Lachaise in Paris. Jim Morrison's grave is almost always surrounded by sullen chain-smokers, but otherwise, it's a really peaceful, beautiful place, provided that the weather is good. You can get a map where famous tombs' locations are clearly marked, so you don't get lost.

I'm actually big on the National Gallery in London - but hey, I like to feast my eyes the Renaissance and the 19th Century art.

There is a GREAT pub off of Fulham Road called The Anglesea Arms. It's not cheap (well, the entire neighbourhood is ridiculously expensive), but very, very cosy. The exact address is 15 Selwood Terrace, I believe. There's a dining room in the back, and the food is as good as the beer in that place.

[Bêthberry]

Gordon's Wine Bar is the establishment Esty described.

I second Mithalwen's recommendation of the Musee de Cluny and Ile St. Louis.

Comparing Notre Dame with St. Paul's also provides some interesting points of difference between the two countries and then of course there's the York Minster, but York isn't on your list. Too bad you aren't including Scotland--Glasgow provides intriguing contrasts. You really cannot begin to fathom the history of scotch until you've seen just how many different kinds of the stuff the Scots produce. There's barrows up north in Scotland too, but I can't comment on them.

There's a pub across from the British Museum that apparently has been annointed by several Downer meets. Esty and Squatter might recall the name/exact location.

I've always had a fancy to visit Torquay in honour of Fawlty Towers but haven't made it there yet.

If you like amusement parks, Parc Asterix just outside Paris is a hoot and much preferable to any Disney arcade.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

There's barrows up north in Scotland too, but I can't comment on them.

There's a pub across from the British Museum that apparently has been annointed by several Downer meets. Esty and Squatter might recall the name/exact location.

There are barrows everywhere, almost. There's even one on a council estate in Luton I understand.

I think that pub is probably The Museum, the one frequented by Karl Marx, so a fitting place for Downer meets, methinks. There is a rare bookshop around the corner called Ulysses - I think in the old offices for Unwins.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The place near the British Museum is called "Forum Café" - I'm not sure we Downers were actually in it back at the first meeting of Downers in London; we may just have taken our picture outside. The name is quite appropriate!

As to Hamburg, the Alster (the lake in the middle of the city) is very picturesque - you can walk along the shore or take a ferry across. The inner city is full of beautiful old buildings to see, and it's fun to stroll around the pedestrian shopping zone.

[obloquy]

Thanks, everyone, for your posts. I am reading them and I appreciate your great ideas!

[Mithalwen]

I have just googled and discovered my favourite eating place is still there and still good. "Creperie des Arts" 27 rue St Andre des Arts, metro St Michel or Odeon. It is very close to Place St Michel in the Latin Quarter and Notre Dame etc... Obviously you have to like crepes but they did a good range of savoury and sweet fillings and it was quite affordable (unlike many Parisian eateries..)

[Bêthberry]

The great fun of eating in Paris is not only to find great culinary establishments, but also to enjoy the style of French dining in its many forms.

First of all, even at the most expensive restaurants, lunches are considerably cheaper than dinners. But they taste just as good. (will return with names of several fantastic establishments if they still exist.)

Second, we really enjoyed eating al fresco in Paris, buying meat and fresh French bread (which does not exist anywhere else in the universe except in France) and fresh fruit and vegetables at boulangeries and patisseries in the morning before we began our excursions for the day.

We brought along plastic plates, cups and utensils in a backpack (horrors, I know, but easily transportable) which we ditched before returning home. It was amazing how many French citizens also ate this way. I recall observing an entire mini soap opera of l'amour triste between a French couple while they and we ate a similar French picnic lunch near the Eiffel Tower (which we refused to go up). Same holds true for dinner if one travels during early evening daylight.

The English apparently cannot fathom this sort of manners/eating/fare and so we were unable to experience such spontaneity and free form cuisine in England. On t'other hand, it is possible to find great pub fare in the Septre'd Isle, if one looks for it.

PM me if you want the name of a fantastic tourist hotel in the Latin Quarter. As I recall, it was only 2 stars, but why people need a TV while in Paris I fail to understand. Double glazed windows provided sound proofing. No lift, but you're young. It provided breakfast, free laundry facilities, and even allowed guests to use the kitchen. near the Musee de Cluny. Not available in London, sadly.

I am so wanting to catch a flight back there tonight.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The English apparently cannot fathom this sort of manners/eating/fare and so we were unable to experience such spontaneity and free form cuisine in England. On t'other hand, it is possible to find great pub fare in the Septre'd Isle, if one looks for it.

You clearly didn't stray within 100 yards radius of a branch of Greggs, a Northerner or a working class person then?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

If you at some point find yourself in the southern Sweden instead of in Stockholm then I should be able to help, but my knowledge of Stockholm is suprisingly small.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The English apparently cannot fathom this sort of manners/eating/fare and so we were unable to experience such spontaneity and free form cuisine in England. On t'other hand, it is possible to find great pub fare in the Septre'd Isle, if one looks for it.

.

Are you saying that the English do not know how to picnic? Utter balderdash .... the smallest bit of sunshine will have us eating al fresco whether it be a sandwich on a bench or something involving hampers (and possibly a butler at Ascot or Glyndebourne..the former is more my style... I raided the delicatessen's of St Giles rather than fork out the extortionate price of an Oxonmoot lunch and have pictures of a picnic I went on in the Bois de Boulogne in sub zero temperatures - the French were the ones giving us funny looks. I even have a little insulated backpack kitted out with a picnic set and wine glasses and even napkins for more planned occasions.

So Bethberry, will it be swords or pistols?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So Bethberry, will it be swords or pistols?

Oh, I would suggest pistolets as eminently preferable, particularly if you bring your butler along to do the toting and serving. And perhaps we can include a bottle of port courtesy of Gordon's in London.

Originally Posted by Lal

You clearly didn't stray within 100 yards radius of a branch of Greggs, a Northerner or a working class person then?

Well, I did bring a piece of coal to Newcastle--flung it out the open train door as we drove through. Does that count as North?

I had been wondering if it was the late season of our trip--long past the strawberries and cream of -- is it Wimbleton or Ascot? My chapeau was also a wee bit modest compared to some of the English accoutrements I saw.

[Mithalwen]

Gordon's do gin ... and very well. Cockburns for port but I can't stand the stuff so you can bring your own... and I am afraid Butler is dead (ex-faithful hound of solemn demeanour). Pistols are a good choice for a bullet may go anywhere whereas a sword will almost certainly go somewhere...

[Nogrod]

As a Finn I must make the obvious question: why Stockholm as you could make it to Helsinki as well?

And if the 'downers are scarce in Stockholm you will find a host of them in Helsinki: Spawn, Lommy, Volo, Aganzir, A Little Green...

So just give us your schedual and we'll try to arrange you people and things to see. And if you happen to need a place to overnight I might easily accomodate you so that you could save that money to spend somewhere else...

And even the famous Michael Jackson (not the singer!) thought Finland's pubs were supreme!

[Lalaith]

Stockholm:
Skansen and the Vasa museum, boat rides around the islands and the underground food market at Hatorget.

Brussels has some very good bars, or at least it did when I was last there, some years ago now I admit. There was a lovely one shaped just like a 1920s ocean liner (Archiduc), and another which was done up in ultra-goth style, ashtrays like coffins etc. (Le Cercueil)

In Paris, I, like Lush, love Pere Lachaise. Sainte Chapelle is beautiful. Restaurant-wise I rather like Le Procope, which claims to be the oldest restaurant in the city (1686) and has rather a fun and raffish 18th century interior, not hugely expensive either.
As for London....lots of things already said (Gordons is fab) but I would add that despite, or even because of, the opulent naffness, Harrods is always worth a visit - the food hall, the Di and Dodi fountain and the Egyptian staircase are a hoot. And go on one of those open-top bus rides, they are fun and will show you most things you need to see. Walk around the Serpentine in Hyde Park, visit the old Reading Room at the British Museum, and see Hampton Court if you can. Mo Tearoom in Heddon Street, (behind Regent Street, next door to the posh restaurant Momo) is a really good little secret to know about, dead cheap, tasty Moroccan food and very atmospheric.

As an ardent Londoner and European, I have to ask, oblo, what led you to your choice of cities? I've never been to Hamburg....but Mr Lalaith has and he says that other than quite a pretty lake there's not much going on.
Personally, I feel that the most tremendous city in Europe, possibly even more marvellous than London, is Rome.

[Gwathagor]

Don't plan on trying to see all of the Louvre, because it's too big. If you MUST see the Mona Lisa, go early and make it the very first thing you see.

The Sewer Tour is really interesting if you've read Les Miserables.

I agree with Lalaith: Sainte Chapelle is splendid. Smaller than Notre Dame, but better stained glass.

If you like military history, Les Invalides is the place to go. They also have the Tomb of Napoleon.

The Pantheon is worth seeing, as is the Cluny museum. Jardin des Plantes has a cool zoo.

The Buttes Chamont park is nice; it used to be a huge sewage dump until the 1860's, so it has lots of tunnels and crazy hills and a nice artificial lake.

I don't remember London as well. The Tower of London is obviously a must-see (sooo many weapons!), and if you get a chance to visit the British Museum of Natural History, look closely for my finger-prints on the Rosetta Stone. They're there. They're not supposed to be, but they're there.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As a Finn I must make the obvious question: why Stockholm as you could make it to Helsinki as well?

And if the 'downers are scarce in Stockholm you will find a host of them in Helsinki: Spawn, Lommy, Volo, Aganzir, A Little Green...

So just give us your schedual and we'll try to arrange you people and things to see. And if you happen to need a place to overnight I might easily accomodate you so that you could save that money to spend somewhere else...

And even the famous Michael Jackson (not the singer!) thought Finland's pubs were supreme!

I would love to see Finland and will definitely do so in the (hopefully) near future. We could not fit it in this time, unfortunately. The Stockholm excursion is a bit of an extravagance and was not originally planned, but when I discovered that Einsturzende Neubauten was going to be playing a concert there three days after we arrived in London I had to make it work. I really regret that we will not be seeing much more, but this is our first trip and will not be our last; in fact, if plans do not change, we will be returning for a week in Oktober to make up for missing Munich (wheeeee!), Prague, and Vienna. A third trip to do the proud lands of Scandinavia justice will almost certainly be happening within the year after that, and sometime later we will finally be able to explore the south of France and the rest of the Mediterranean.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

As an ardent Londoner and European, I have to ask, oblo, what led you to your choice of cities? I've never been to Hamburg....but Mr Lalaith has and he says that other than quite a pretty lake there's not much going on.

Well London was a given and Paris was top priority for my wife; Stockholm came about by happy accident as I explained above. Ireland has always figured prominently in my fantasies, which is why we are spending a disproportionate amount of time there. Hamburg is a result of a desire to see at least something German, combined with a cheap flight from Stockholm and not being too far out of the way. Hamburg is actually not the attraction, and this is the only location that we currently have plans for renting a car: we will be driving through more rural German areas (I dream of rural Germany and France nearly as much as Ireland) and hopefully down to Burg Eltz. Well, here's the current draft of the itinerary:

Arrive Apr 24 to London; 25 London; 26 London; 27 London to Stockholm for concert (morning flight, evening concert); 28 Stockholm to Hamburg (evening flight); 29 Hamburg to Eltz by rental car; 30 Eltz proximity to Brussels; 1 train from Brussels (afternoon) to Paris to spend our 4th anniversary dinner there; 2 Paris; 3 Paris; 4 Paris to Dublin; 5-8 Ireland (more specific plans are not yet laid but we will most likely be spending all of our Ireland time on the west side of the island--Galway and Dingle are two possibilities); 9 Back in Dublin in time to fly back to London; 10 depart London for home at 08:00.

Bold indicates what is paid for and unchangeable; everything else might be modified.

I realize that a lot is missing. I wish we had a month this time, but we just could not do more than the 17 days (including travel time) we have planned.

Again, I really appreciate all this feedback. I will definitely be compiling a list from these posts.

[Lalwendë]

The west of Ireland is apparently fantastic - I've not been (I suspect I would not come back) but my brother goes all the time, being fond of the horse racing, the drinking and the Irish friendliness. If you plan to go anywhere near Kenmare in Kerry (close to the Dingle) I'll ask him which the good pubs are. Apparently some pubs are sneaky and do two sorts of Guinness - one for 'tourists' and one for 'locals' which is stronger. It's all very friendly - my mother and auntie ended up having their tea in a priest's house after talking to him in a churchyard they were looking in for graves of relatives. It rains though. A LOT.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, I did bring a piece of coal to Newcastle--flung it out the open train door as we drove through. Does that count as North?

I had been wondering if it was the late season of our trip--long past the strawberries and cream of -- is it Wimbleton or Ascot? My chapeau was also a wee bit modest compared to some of the English accoutrements I saw.

I'm beginning to wonder if you went to Newcastle at all now It's the home of Greggs and eating in the open air is compulsory, preferably after the clubs shut, and involving a kebab, chips, and curry, possibly all at once and eaten off a massive Stottie Cake. Plus Geordies (and most Northerners in general) are well known for their hardiness and rarely go out in a coat at night (or indeed very much at all, lasses are often struck by the nasty affliction known as Corned Beef Legs due to their skimpy frocks in near zero temperatures) - who needs a wussy coat when you've got a toasty warm beer jacket?

Now I'm offering the alternative England to Mithalwen's vision of Gordons Gin and Hampers

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Plus Geordies (and most Northerners in general) are well known for their hardiness and rarely go out in a coat at night (or indeed very much at all, lasses are often struck by the nasty affliction known as Corned Beef Legs due to their skimpy frocks in near zero temperatures) - who needs a wussy coat when you've got a toasty warm beer jacket?

I noticed this when I went out for drinks this christmas, it was weird and very silly.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Now I'm offering the alternative England to Mithalwen's vision of Gordons Gin and Hampers

Oi I did point out that a sandwich on a park benchwas more my end of a picnic spectrum but I have to admit my screen name elsewhere is "ginslinger" and not entirely ironically... and I love greggs .. but their offers are lethal top the waistline ... We always used to holiday in Cornwall when I was a kid and the typical picnic was a pastie and a saffron cake..
Oh the Sainte Chapelle is fabulous - I went to a friend's concert there so got in free

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Now I'm offering the alternative England to Mithalwen's vision of Gordons Gin and Hampers

And now we all are indebted to the both of you for proving yet again what a class ridden country Old Blighty still is.

[Brinniel]

Well I may not be a native, but I just got back from Belgium and I can tell you it's a very lovely place. Of course in Brussels the most important thing is to see the Grand Place at night as it's very beautiful. If you appreciate music at all, I strongly recommend visiting the Musical Instrument Museum; it's both a visual and auditory experience unlike anything I've been to. When it comes to pubs, I would suggest trying L'Mort Subite (Sudden Death). I promise you won't experience sudden death, though I'm sure you'd agree it's quite appropriate for a Downer to visit. Anyways, it's a really nice little place with good drinks and a relaxed atmosphere. Now if you go to Belgium, I recommend you also visit Bruges for a day. It's a beautiful place without the big city feeling, though it is pretty touristy (it wasn't so much when I went, but that's because it's out-of-season). If you do go there, there's a restaurant called De Hobbit and a pub called Bistro Tolkien as I've mentioned in another thread...

I'd also like to thank everyone for all the advice. Studying abroad in Europe, I'm planning to do a lot of traveling myself, and I'm finding some of this quite helpful. Perhaps I should take advantage of this thread and list where I'm going too...

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And now we all are indebted to the both of you for proving yet again what a class ridden country Old Blighty still is.

I am beginning to think Bethberry is much, much older than she seems and was last here around the time of the Diamond jubilee Gin ain't necessarily upmarket ... for all you know I am more Hogarthian than MCC.

However Lal you say it is my vision but I think you'll find it was your dream....

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...&postcount=794

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am beginning to think Bethberry is much, much older than she seems and was last here around the time of the Diamond jubilee Gin ain't necessarily upmarket ... for all you know I am more Hogarthian than MCC.

Bethberry is as old or as young, as decrepit or as sprightly, as ugly or as pretty, as silly or as sober, as any wish to imagine her, there being no restrictions on imagination, interneted or otherwise.

With only two days for London, there won't be much chance to see much. There's lots of Old English relics and antiquaries at the British Museum, but why lock yourself up in a building (as neat as it might be) when there's so much more to explore outside?

Street markets are great fun--Camden Market and Portobello are probably the best known ones. There is also a market beside St. Martin's in the Field church on Trafalgar Square. If you are in that part of town, visit St. Martin's. The Crypt has a good cafe with a shop offering brass rubbings. Good music concerts there. It's essentially just around the corner (as I recall) from Gordon's Wine Bar and on the edge of the theatre district. Heavens! Is the Lord of the Rings musical still playing?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

And Trafalgar Square is definitely a must-see spot for first-time visitors! I agree with Bb - it's much more interesting (and cheaper!) to walk around a city than to spend all day inside.

[obloquy]

Well, plans changed a little and now we will be staying in Stockholm for three nights and then making our way by plane and train to Brussels. Germany was eliminated from this trip because a) we will be going back for Germany in the fall; b) I was told in this thread that Hamburg is nothing very special; c) less destinations means less rush, and in this case d) less money as well.

We've bought tickets to see Swan Lake in Stockholm on the 29th, which we are pretty excited about. I've never been to a ballet but I enjoyed Altman's The Company, so hopefully it will be fun.

Speaking of going out on the town: we looked into going to Rossini's opera The Barber of Seville in Paris but it was nearly $600 each. Keeps out the riff-raff I guess.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I'm an American, but I feel compelled to throw in my personal opinions about Paris.

Paris is one of my favorite cities, though I've only been there once. Everything about it is gorgeous. The Lourve is, I think, a very necessary stop, though you'll never see all of it in one stop, even if you do it at a run. Best to work out beforehand what you want to see.

I'd also recommend setting aside a part of a day for just wandering around, taking it all in. A good starting place is in front of Notre Dame. It's been a couple years, but as I recall, from there, you can find your way down all manner of quirky little French streets with cute little cafes and interesting little shops. I didn't see any need to go for the very best in fancy dining--most places I ate at were cafes or bakeries that we happened by on the way. I like my travel loosely-planned. The first food I had in France was in a little bakery within walking distance of Notre Dame. I ordered crepes and they were absolutely unforgettable, even if I had a hard time communicating what it was that I was ordering, since I had very little familiarity with French, and the cook spoke only a few words of English, and my accent was atrocious.

If you want to go somewhere that's a little off the beaten path (in other words, while it's a place a lot of tourists visit, it isn't the Lourve, Notre Dame, the Eiffel Tower, etc...though those are all well and good in their own right), I'd actually recommend the Catacombs. I wasn't too sure about them, but the friends I was with really, really wanted to go, and I didn't want to go off by myself so I tagged along. I was very pleasantly surprised. The atmosphere was very quiet, even peaceful, and it was a fascinating trip, and not even in a morbid sort of way. I think I may have wound up enjoying it the most out of our group, even. I've never seen anything like it in my life, before or since. Might be an appropriate place for a Downer to visit. However, having my bag checked at the exit was probably one of the most bizarre things that happened to me--who would want to steal a bunch of old bones?! Be warned that there are a LOT of stairs, and if you're not up for some climbing, you might want to skip it.

I fell in love with a bar/restaraunt/pub (?--I'm not sure of its American equivalent) on a corner somewhere near the Catacombs. My friends and I went in during a slow time, and the owner was very, very friendly and outgoing and helpful. He even helped us try to learn French (a daunting task!), told us which subway to take to get to Napoleon's tomb, etc. The food was inexpensive but tasty, and I unfortunately did not save either the business card of the place, or the reciept so I'm afraid I can't tell you its exact name. I believe it might have been also within walking distance (or even across the way from) a McDonald's. It wasn't fancy dining, or even a place that looked particularly geared towards tourists, but it was lovely all the same.

I'm going to go home for veteran's day weekend, the weekend after next, and I'll try to find you the business card from the other restaraunt I really liked in Paris. I believe I saved it. They served couscous, of all things, and it was a very interesting taste experience, though I have no idea of its price range.

A word of advice--When walking into any of the many stores in France, do say "Bonjour", and when leaving, say "Au revoir". It's a custom, or so I was told in school before going. Not to do so would be rude, apparantly.

Aside to Bethberry: I wanted to go to Parc Asterix, but didn't have the time or the transportation to do so (I went with a school group so our time was more structured than I would have liked). Glad to hear it's a good time. Perhaps I'll check it out if I'm fortunate enough to go to Paris again.

I can apparantly ramble on for ages about Paris, but really. Even if you go in with hardly anything planned, you won't find a shortage of things to see and do, on the spur of the moment. A day spent wandering the streets is not, in my opinion, a day even remotely wasted.

EDIT: Just saw Mithalwen's post about Creperie des Arts. It sounds familiar, and if that's the place I'm thinking it is (I barely remember--Paris was a whirlwind), then I heartily second the recommendation!

[obloquy]

Great post, thank you. We definitely planned to spend a lot of time just walking around. It's one of my very favorite things to do.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Heavens! Is the Lord of the Rings musical still playing?

It is.

In Paris the rue Cler has (or had) a classic street market and the best bakery I found if youare going walkabout. In London, the "City" ie the square mile has all these fantastic churches and monuments in the midst of the business activity.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Street markets are great fun--Camden Market and Portobello are probably the best known ones.

A big chunk of Camden Market burned down last night, plus the Hawley Arms.

I'm betting it was the lingering miasma of hairspray from all the goffs who were out shopping for Cyberdog gear on the Saturday that spontaneously combusted when Amy Winehouse was observing the pub smoking ban and flicked her tab end over the back wall of the Hawley Arms beer garden. She'll have to go to rehab now.

[Brinniel]

A quick question:

I just found out recently that I will be spending a day and a half in Liverpool. Now I don't know very much about the city, so I was wondering if anyone could give me some suggestion on what I could do while there? Also, any recommendations on pubs or bars would be welcome.

I would also love to visit York in May, but according to my travel book the train ride seems rather expensive.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

A quick question:

I just found out recently that I will be spending a day and a half in Liverpool. Now I don't know very much about the city, so I was wondering if anyone could give me some suggestion on what I could do while there? Also, any recommendations on pubs or bars would be welcome.

I would also love to visit York in May, but according to my travel book the train ride seems rather expensive.

Plenty do in Liverpool! I know it well! The best pub everyone recommends is the Phil so I'm not about to break ranks and send you elsewhere! http://ultimatepubguide.com/pubs/inf...271&crawl_id=1
Though I used to know all the best dive nightclubs when i was a lot younger Liverpool is now home to very glitzy bars and clubs (like Cream) which are packed out with dressed up scousers ('going out' is a religion in Liverpool), footballers and WAGs.

Lots of good shopping to be had in town and around the renovated Albert Dock area. There's always a cheesy Beatles tour or two to go on. How about comparing the two cathedrals? 'Paddy's Wigwam' is the Catholic one, designed by the protestant Lutyens and the monumental Anglican one (biggest in Europe I think) is designed by the Catholic Gilbert Scott. There's also a fab museum (I wonder if they still have the piranha fish? I got done for tapping on the glass of the tank when I was a kid ), St George's Hall and the Walker Art Gallery.

Liverpool is also European Capital of Culture this year so there's bound to be something mad to see: http://www.liverpool08.com/ As if it wasn't mad enough already. You could always go looking for the 'Paradox' (see Mr Hookbill's blog) or search out the Tate Gallery, the Pier Head, the Mersey Ferry, Sefton Park, the Williamson Tunnels, the Mersey Tunnels, or Goodison Park ( we do not mention the other place).

Or if that's all too much, go north to the very agreeable Southport

As for getting to York, you need to keep checking & fiddling with your options on the national rail website to get cheap tickets - that's what I always do when I'm going to London (It's only £12 to get to York from here). http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Plenty do in Liverpool! I know it well! The best pub everyone recommends is the Phil so I'm not about to break ranks and send you elsewhere! http://ultimatepubguide.com/pubs/inf...271&crawl_id=1
Though I used to know all the best dive nightclubs when i was a lot younger Liverpool is now home to very glitzy bars and clubs (like Cream) which are packed out with dressed up scousers ('going out' is a religion in Liverpool), footballers and WAGs.

Lots of good shopping to be had in town and around the renovated Albert Dock area. There's always a cheesy Beatles tour or two to go on. How about comparing the two cathedrals? 'Paddy's Wigwam' is the Catholic one, designed by the protestant Lutyens and the monumental Anglican one (biggest in Europe I think) is designed by the Catholic Gilbert Scott. There's also a fab museum (I wonder if they still have the piranha fish? I got done for tapping on the glass of the tank when I was a kid ), St George's Hall and the Walker Art Gallery.

Liverpool is also European Capital of Culture this year so there's bound to be something mad to see: http://www.liverpool08.com/ As if it wasn't mad enough already. You could always go looking for the 'Paradox' (see Mr Hookbill's blog) or search out the Tate Gallery, the Pier Head, the Mersey Ferry, Sefton Park, the Williamson Tunnels, the Mersey Tunnels, or Goodison Park ( we do not mention the other place).

Or if that's all too much, go north to the very agreeable Southport

As for getting to York, you need to keep checking & fiddling with your options on the national rail website to get cheap tickets - that's what I always do when I'm going to London (It's only £12 to get to York from here). http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/

Personaly I found the Albert docks rather disapointing and the beatles museum is not really worth a visit, unless you know hardly anything about them. . .but in general I liked Liverpool. I found that the scousers where a quite likeable bunch, of course it helps that I support Liverpool F.C.

Of course you could visit Anfield Road


P.S. Did they not make a documentary about that "cream" place?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Personaly I found the Albert docks rather disapointing and the beatles museum is not really worth a visit, unless you know hardly anything about them. . .but in general I liked Liverpool. I found that the scousers where a quite likeable bunch, of course it helps that I support Liverpool F.C.

Of course you could visit Anfield Road


P.S. Did they not make a documentary about that "cream" place?

Albert Dock hasn't been the same since they got rid of Fred's weather map...

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Rune

the beatles museum is not really worth a visit, unless you know hardly anything about them

Well, the Beatles museum is the reason the people I'm going with chose Liverpool in the first place. Honestly, I'm not exactly a huge Beatles fan myself and part of me worries this is going to be just another tourist trap....and it sounds like there's a lot of better things to do in Liverpool anyway. But this is me trying to be flexible for the sake of my friends and perhaps in the process I'll learn something new about the Beatles...

Thanks for all the suggestions, Lal. I'll definitely have to check some of those places out...especially the Phil. Unfortunately, we'll be spending only one night in Liverpool now; we couldn't find a vacant hostel for the first night so we'll be spending that night in Manchester instead (which I'm sure will be fun as well), then take the bus to Liverpool the following day.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

AHA! I thought I'd lost that address of the restaraunt I told you I'd give you (not the place near the catacombs and the McDonald's--I can't seem to find them online, and I never took their card--but the other one). But I found it in my travel notebook, so all is well. I did a little snooping around with Google and apparantly they're still there! They're not what you'd call fancy dining, I don't think, but as I said before, they make really good couscous, if that's something you're interested in. I'm not sure why, but in Paris, they seem to really like their Greek food.

Restaraunt Epsilon
66 Avenue des gobelins
75013 Paris.

There are a number of other restaraunts down that street, and as I recall, there's even another, crazier Greek place on that same street that will smash a plate over your head (apparantly it's good luck? I don't get it.) Some of my friends got lunch there our second day, while I was off doing something else, and they recommended it highly (the joy of watching one friend have a plate smashed on her head, then dancing with the waiter, and the good food all combined for a pretty entertaining lunch, I can imagine, and I'm still rather sorry I missed it, especially as I can't even remember now what I was doing at the time! ).

I also thought I'd suggest you bring an umbrella or two. I went there almost exactly two years ago, and it was very rainy...I can only assume their spring would be rainier than their winter.

[Brinniel]

Hello,

I have a quick question for any British Downers...

Does one need reservations for a train from London to Oxford? I'm leaving to Oxford on Friday and am slightly panicked as the website won't let me reserve that short of notice...

And is it fairly easy to hop on a train with a large load of luggage? I was planning to take a bus, but unfortunately there's a luggage limit. I'm traveling with three months worth of stuff, so I have a lot of luggage...