Sarumon and Sauron's War

[WarBringer]

The Urak Hai-Sarumons' creation-are the ones who killed boromir and proved to be better in combat than Saurons normal orcs. If sarumon had an extra to prepare, could he have won a war against Sauron.

[steve]

Saruman did not create the Uruk-Hai, and no matter how long Saruman prepaired sauron had the Nazgul and he had millions more Orcs compared to whoever many Saruman could gather

[WarBringer]

did sarumon not fuse orc with man?

[steve]

no, first they are orcs and GOBLIN men, and second saruman did not create them
Saruman never created anything kind of creature
and remember, this is the Books forum, the information you are asking about was from the movie, it did not go that way in the book

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: steve ]

[Túroch]

Also remeber that Saruman's Orthanc was just a mocking imitation of the war machine that Sauron had at Barad Dur. There is no way Saruman could have beaten Sauron without the One Ring.

[Frodo Baggins]

*ahem*

In the books it hints that Uruk-ahi are actually a large breed of fighting orc. Goblins and orcs are the same thing, so to cross orcs with goblin men would be to cross orcs with themselves.

[Bill Ferny]

I wonder what he [Saruman] has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!

--Treebeard, LotR III 4

[Merry:] Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible; man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were… [Aragorn:] We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep…

--Merry and Aragorn, LotR III 9

As soon as the enemy had gained possession of the eastern end of the Fords there appeared a company of men or orc-men (evidently dispatched for the purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes… As he came to his side Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man.

--The Battles of the Fords of Isen, UT V

It seems pretty clear, or at least we can conclude with some certainty, that while Saruman may not have created orc-men, he at least bred them. So give the devil his due, Saruman was capable of making his own sadistic army. This army, though, like all things Saruman did, was a cheap imitation. He imitated both Gandalf and Sauron because he was jealous of them, and his imitations always ended up falling way short. No way could Saruman prevail over Sauron, or Gandalf. So I agree with Túroch, but Saruman, of course, could not prevail, even with the One Ring, for the Ring serves only one master, Sauron.

After reading and re-reading the LotR it is not at all clear to me what type of creature keeps chanting “we are the fighting uruk-hai”. Speculatively, these could actually be delusional orc-men thinking they are really uruk-hai, named so by an equally delusional wizard. If anyone can find a quote that definitively states that these characters going about chanting “we are the fighting uruk-hai” are the same species that first appeared at Osgiliath in 2475, please let me know. I can’t find anything, and I’ve been looking for about a month now. Its pretty obvious to me that Mr. Jackson is not a complete retard, and I find it hard to believe that he would make such a blaring mistake. I think that there might be a good reason for him going in the direction he went.

[engwaalphiel]

i doubt that Saruman would . Even though Sauron had no body as such he was bound to the ring , and as we know that ring was one powerful thing ! There were many more Orcs under Sauron than Saruman and he had many more allies on his side (the Nazgul for instance).
The Uruk Hai were a newer race and would take a long time to get to an army large enough to defeat ME . Also just look at where they were residing at the times . Saruman in the sturdy but soon wrecked by the Ents , Orthanc or Sauron in the dark fortress of Barad Dur which are guarded by more than just orcs .

you do simply not walk into Mordor

Sauron had his own lands (well he thought he did) and a reputation at that.

[WarBringer]

that was the point i was trying to make by "creation"-That sarumon bred the new orcs

[Morima]

I have to disagree with you on some things, Bill Ferny. Saruman was not jealous of Sauron. He was deceived by Sauron, and had he any feelings towards him, it had to be plain fear. I can think of nothing else fitting better with the fact that Saruman, as proud as he is, eventually acknowledges Sauron as his Master.

Saruman bred the army for his own purposes, but since Sauron ruled a whole country, an enormous area, he was able to make his army thousands of times greater. That is a practical fact. He also kept slaves in the south. Obviously, a mockery and a "cheap imitation" is what it seemed to be for those who saw Isengard at that time, and so it says in the Book as well, but I mean, jealousy has nothing to do with that. And two thousand years earlier, when Saruman came to Middle-Earth, he did a lot of good, and there is little of what he all-over has done which can be described as "cheap imitations".

As for Gandalf, I believe that he and Saruman were jealous of each other, for different reasons. They were certainly never personally friends, either way.

This bit is a complex one - cause Tolkien never (as he said himself) wrote or said much on it.

Uruk-hai is Black Speech and means uruk-people, so I guess they were an own species. Also, they were huge and able to travel in daylight, as regular orcs were not. I don't really see what the question is, cause Treebeard states (at least a theory of) that this IS a breed of orcs and men, which that seems reliable to me.

[WarBringer]

i dont think that gandalf would be jealous of sarumon, when he becomes more powerful than him and also guesses at his treachery

[Morima]

That's true. He clearly wasn't jealous of Saruman at the end; at that point, it rather went the other way. But those two Istari have quite a long story before the War of the Ring too. That time is what I'm talking about. But that's just a theory.

[WarBringer]

Also, is it within the power of a wizard to create any lifeform? I thought no one would view my statement as that? Which brings up a question-Could a wizard create an entrirely new life form? I could not find anything saying they could or couldnt. Does anyone know?

[Morima]

As usual, I don't say anything for certain :-). But I'm pretty sure here all the same: Only the Valar can create lifeforms. Manwë created Elf and Man, Aulë created dwarf, and Morgoth, though he didn't really create a new lifeform: he captured some of the first elves and tortured them into another species, the orcs.

What Saruman did, and what (I'm not sure of but think that) Morgoth did before him (with his own orcs, that is), was just like another dog-breeder amongst us can do! :-)

[WarBringer]

i guess thats true... but arent wizards underlingscompared to them?

[Morima]

Valar are (kinda) the Gods. Maiar are their servants; kinda semi-gods. Istari are Maiar, so yes, they are underlings. They have lesser powers than the Valar. But then again, some Maiar are originally more powerful than other Maiar. Like Sauron, he was quite powerful, it seems.

[Bill Ferny]

Morima,

Morgoth, according to Tolkien's latter letters, did not twist or torture elves to make orcs. Tolkien here describes orcs as completely different from elves, a completely different creation. They were simply extensions of Morgoth's evil and hatred. Orcs are talking animals, in capable of moral choice. See HoME chapter X.

Though, it is certain that Tolkien at the time he wrote the LotR was leaning toward the notion that orcs were twisted elves, he never comes out and says it in the books except through a quote from Treebeard, which Tolkien clearly states was not the correct theory. Which ever way you go, I still think that orcs being twisted elves is a credible thought for discussion, even though Tolkien latter changed his mind on the subject.

Only the Valar, then could create new life forms, though Morgoth’s creation is well below the creations of the other Valar (orcs lack free will). However, it is apparent that the uruk-hai and the olog-hai were variations on a theme, and this was well within the power of the Maia. Through breeding (perhaps), and maybe mixed with some sorcery, orcs (and trolls) could be “improved.” How or by what means goes beyond the scope of this thread, and has been discussed many times already. Here is the best, some other orcs, and uruks, and orcs, and more orcs.

As far as Saruman’s jealousy is concerned, my opinion is based on the chapter The Istari from UT. However, its simply an opinion, and the subject is open to interpretation. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Morima]

Hmmm. I sense some sarcasm in that last remark, Bill, but then I haven't read Unfinished Tales. So I don't think I'll say anything more on that yet... :-)

If Tolkien stated other places that the orc species weren't a twisted form of the elf species, that puzzles me. Cause it is clearly stated in The Silmarillion, if I remember right, that Morgoth captured some of the first elves, torured them and thus turned them into orcs! That would be a major contradiction!

But then again, in a huge work like Tolkiens, some contradictions simply have to be. :-) I feel there are more of them in, say, the Harry Potter books, for instance.

[Galorme]

He changed his mind towards the end, but then changed the changing of his mind, and changed the change of the etc etc ad infinitum. The fact is when the LoTRs was written he did believe orcs were twisted elves. But it was not clearly stated, it is merely said thats what the elves believe.

Manwë created Elf and Man

What the? Manwe could create Elven bodies, but only if there was a spirit to inhabet them. He could not creat the mind of an Elf. And he never made a Man as far as i know. Eru made Men and Elves. He also gave souls to the dwarves, as yet again Aule could only make the bodies.

[Carannillion]

Hmm...

Lots of rather peculiar "facts" here...

Galorme, your clarification on the creation of things is appreciated, but let me take it further.

In short, only Ilúvatar (Erü) could create. Ilúvatar created the Ainur, and they took part in the cration of the Great Music. Out of the Music, Ilúvatar created Arda, the world where Middle-Earth is located. Some of the Ainur went to live in Arda, 16 "greater" and an unknown - and large - number of "lesser". These "greater" Ainur were known as the Valar, and Manwë was their leader. One of these "greater" Ainur, namely Melkor, was however not really counted among the Valar, for he desired to have Arda for himself. Ultimately he desired the power of Ilúvatar, the power to create things, but Ilúvatar had this power locked away in the Flame Imperishable which only Ilúvatar knows where (and when..?) is. It is stated in Sil that Melkor often went alone into the Void looking for it, but he could never find it. Now the substance of Arda was there, but it was yet to be shaped. The Valar undertook this mission, but found their work more than often spoilt, twisted and destroyed by Melkor. This was the nature of Melkor, to twist the work and creations of others, just as he had done with the Music. The Elves are called "the firstborn" and are created by Ilúvatar. The Valar knew of "the Children of Ilúvatar", but they did not know who they were, what they looked like and so on. The exact day of their awakening was also unknown, but one day Oromë found them in the far east of Middle-Earth (p. 49 of the Silmarillion). The same thing was with Men, and of Hobbits little is told. The dwarves and the Ents are a different matter though. The dwarves were forged by Aulë, and given life by Ilúvatar. At first they seemed living, but they were - like the One Ring - still of Aulë's spirit, and so they could only "live" when he gave them attention (p. 43 of the Silmarillion). Ilúvatar asked Aulë why he broke the rules and created things of his own and if he was aware that this cration was not independent of him and so on. Aulë answered that he created them out of a desire to love them and teach them, not to dominate them and so Ilúvatar gave them life - it is actually quite interesting to see this event compared to the Bible (as with so many things of Tolkien's works) and Abraham... The Ents are a difficult matter. The only thing I can find on them in Silmarillion is on page 46, where it is said that the thought of Yavanna will summon "spirits from afar" to protect the olvar (things that grow, trees flowers and so on).

All life comes from Ilúvatar, and all creation originates from him. Arda was created by Ilúvatar out of the Music which was sung by the Ainur - spirits of his thought - and the shape of Arda was left to be forged by the Valar and the Maiar. Melkor was a pain in the *** and was ultimately cast into the Void. As for the orcs, I am unsure of their exact origins. We have the theory of animals and the theory of twisted elves. I actually feel that the twisted elves thing is the correct one, but... The Uruk-Hai is another thing. "Uruk" is a derivative of "Yrch". "Yrch" is "Orc" in "orcish" (I'm not sure if this is Black Speech or some original "orcish" language). "Hai" is "warrior" - I think - and so Uruk-Hai is "Orc-Warrior". There is nothing special about them except that they have been "stimulated" into growing big. They are still orcs. Orcs and Goblins are the same thing as far as I know, "goblin" is simply the term used in "the Hobbit". The Uruk-Hai are thus large orcs because the enviroment they live in - war - demands this from them. We find the same thing in humans today: different size, shape and colour on different continents. Why? I dunno... But Saruman did NOT create the Uruk-Hai, they were MAYBE made bigger by Sauron, but still neither Saruman nor Sauron could crate anything.

Oh, and by the way, Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf, and Sauron was even more powerful again, but as we all know Gandalf prevailed because of his other qualities. Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron were originally all alike. They were Maiar and thus of the Ainur. Sauron turned to "evil" (the definition of evil in Tolkien's works has been discussed her at BD many times...) and the service of Melkor (named Morgoth by the elves), and Saruman and Gandalf were given the form of Men and sent to ME to aid the free peoples in the struggle against Sauron along with three others. Saruman was deceived and turned by Suron, two of them are unheard of except that they went into the east, I have no idea if Radagast did what he was supposed to and Gandalf prevailed and completed his task.

As for contradictions in Tolkien's works, I would say there are none. Tolkien's universe is so vast and complex, and in the process of writing it he decided to leav a lot of it unknown. It is up to the reader. We can only guess, just like in real-life archeology...

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Carannillion ]

[Legolas]

There were 15 Valar over the course of the beginning, but only 14 at a time. Melkor left before Tulkas arrived.

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Bill Ferny]

Morima, sarcasm is for people who are afraid to say what’s really on their mind; I don't use it. I merely meant that after reading the chapter on the Istari, I drew the conclusion that Saruman was jealous of Sauron and Gandalf, but that is only my personal take on it, and may not be correct. It can, however, be central to understanding Saruman’s real power versus his perceived power.

Origin of orcs: The Silm provides only another “theory”, that one elven. Tolkien states once again in his letters, that this theory is not correct (HoME, chapter X). As for twisting elves, we should look at the reason why Tolkien changed his mind, not just at the fact that he did. The change in mind was not something done on a whim, but was based on considering the problems it raises. First, elven free will can not be taken away by Melkor, for the ability to make moral choice is a faculty that is inherent to elven nature. No matter how much Melkor could twist an elf, he would not be able to take free will away from them. Orcs with free will, who are able to act independently of the shadow, means that they could “be saved”. In the end Tolkien didn’t like that idea too much. It also has to do with elven long life. Do orcs also share the same life spans as elves? The Doom of Mandos, also presents a problem. Are orcs subject to the fear? If so, they are equal to elves, and in the end Tolkien wouldn’t want that to be the case. I’ve already provided links to threads that discuss these problems thoroughly.

However, I’m not completely convinced that Tolkien went in the right direction in the end. There are many merits to the former theory, and the problems mentioned in these threads can be explained accordingly, given a bit of philological work concerning fae/hroa of the orcs.

The real issue in this thread, however, is the strength and perceived strength of Saruman. I disagree with Carannillion as to the true strength of Saruman, based on what is present in the UT:

Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence. –UT, 3, IV, iii

Círdan entrusted Gandalf, not Saruman, with the Red Ring, because he “saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth.”

Saruman, however, is perceived by all, especially Gandalf, to be the most powerful of the Istari. First, because he is indeed “higher in Valinórean stature than the others” (UT, 4, II). Saruman is also the first of the Istari to come to Middle-earth. This, however, is perception, not objective fact. What we see is not Saruman’s real power, but Gandalf’s humility. In fact, some of Saruman’s greatest praise comes from Gandalf! This is a good example of Gandalf’s humility:

Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth… But Olórin declared the he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go.—UT 4, II

This brings up the question of what did make Gandalf more “powerful” than Saruman. I personally think that it was his humility that tipped the scales.

I also disagree with the notion that Saruman was a “servant” of Sauron:

And Curunír ‘Lân, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he. –UT 4, II

Even in his deception, Saruman never was the true servant of Sauron:

We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it.—LotR II, 2

Saruman saw no hope in openly fighting Sauron, probably instilled into his foolish heart through the Palantíri in the same way that Denethor was deceived. But even then, he was seeking power for himself, thinking that he could be the manipulator. However, the irony lies in the fact that it was him who has been manipulated by the dark spirit.

Saruman held out hope, though, for another way: “Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the Power would pass to us” (LotR II, 2). To take the one ring was Saruman’s real goal, not so he could hand it over to Sauron like a faithful servant, but to be greater than Sauron. Saruman was no minion of Sauron, at least in his own mind. Saruman’s intentions were at odds with Sauron, and even though Sauron was using Saruman, the dark lord had no intention of keeping Saruman around after his victory. Sauron knew that Saruman, after all, was still an enemy.

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Carannillion]

Bill Ferny:
Good point, I agree with you. Saruman only seemed stronger than Gandalf.

The 15 Valar:
My bad. Only 15 in the beginning.

The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. (..) Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.

Sil p. 25,26

Tulkas came to Arda before Melkor was expelled. He came later than the others, but to aid them in the struggle against Melkor, meaning Melkor did not "leave" before Tulkas arrived.
(Sil p. 27,28,29).

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Carannillion ]

[Morima]

Now you people really disagree on every word I say!

But I also see that most of you have deeper knowledge in this than me, and I say things based on what I have read in LotR and the Sil, not having read the HoME or UT yet. It's good that you tell me how things are instead of barking at me. I learn every day.

But some of these questions are, as you say, still a matter of opinion. I personally think that people are too harsh on Saruman, cause many of Tolkiens characters are very complex, and Saruman is definately one of those. I get annoyed when people intentionally (mind you) call him Sarumon or Saurumon or silly things like that. That's not necessary, and that's why I posted on this thread in the first place! Usually, he's not treated fair(ly).

Now, what I said (and was quoted on) about Manwë creating Elf and Man, was obviously wrong: Eru created Elf and Man. I didn't remember correctly from the Sil. And I didn't know that the origin of Orc was a theory as stated in the Sil, later given more theories in Tolkiens letters!

I'm pretty sure, though, that HAI means "people". That's the Black Speech, which is the same as orcish, or much the same. I agree with the one who said that uruk-hai is a form of orc. I guess that could fit with my view on this complex world. Phew...

EDIT: Grammatical errors

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Morima ]

[Legolas]

Tulkas came to Arda before Melkor was expelled. He came later than the others, but to aid them in the struggle against Melkor, meaning Melkor did not "leave" before Tulkas arrived.

Tulkas came before Melkor was cast into the Void, but Melkor was presumably no longer a Vala when he turned against the others (when/why Tulkas came).

[ November 26, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Bill Ferny]

Now you people really disagree on every word I say!

I totally disagree!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Well, just between you and me, way too much emphasis is placed on the letters and HoME on this site. Mr. Christopher Tolkien had at his disposal all the material found in these sources when he put together the Silm. He chose not to use this material, I must assume, because this material was not consistent with themes presented in the original Silm. According to Mr. Christopher Tolkien:

It became clear to me that to attempt to present, within the covers of a single book, the diversity of the materials—to show the Silmarillion as in truth a continuing and evolving creation extending over more than half a century—would in fact lead only to confusion and the submerging of what is essential. I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistent narrative.

It seems to me that special attention should be paid to the wise of Eressëa. Tolkien’s later writings may not be compatible with the mythology of his earlier writings. This, once again according to Mr. Christopher Tolkien: “In his later writing mythology and poetry sank down behind his theological and philosophical preoccupations: from which arose incompatibilities of tone.”