What of Curumo?

[Eönwë]

I know it says at the end of ROTK that Saruman was killed, but when his spirit left him, what happened? Does Tolkien mention it anywhere? I'm just curious, is all?
And if we'er already on that subject, what happens to gandalf when he reaches Valinor and what haappens to Radagast? (I know the two blue wizards never came back out of the East. But when it says that Radagast became too enamoured in the brds and beasts or something like that, it doesn't say whether he reached the white shores or not). Sorry for all the qestions, by the way.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Why sorry? It's all very interesting! Personally I don't know anything more about Saruman's spirit, it is obvious that he was rejected, but what then? Cast into the Void?

Concerning Radagast, I am inclined to believe he remained incarnated, among the Men, so maybe he is still lurking around somewhere, not aging, but living - on the place he chose. Unless he made himself a Dark Lord or something, which I cannot possibly imagine, there was no reason for the Valar to be concerned with his fate - he did not complete what he was sent for, but he also seemingly did not want to return to Valinor, so he remained content where he was.

[Eönwë]

It is quite a strange idea, because there are aa fe loose threads left in LOTR, such as "What happened to the Ents?"(and the Entwives too for that matter). "What happened to the true Aulean dwarfs?" and so on. But he leaves personal things unsaid, for example about Legolas and Gimli, and where their adventures led them. Most of the personal stories are left where they are at the end of the story, with just a hint o a happy/bad ending. But we don't ever find out much about Radagasst te brown, and I don't think even Tolkien knew what happened to the Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

It is quite a strange idea, because there are aa fe loose threads left in LOTR, such as "What happened to the Ents?"(and the Entwives too for that matter). "What happened to the true Aulean dwarfs?" and so on. But he leaves personal things unsaid, for example about Legolas and Gimli, and where their adventures led them. Most of the personal stories are left where they are at the end of the story, with just a hint o a happy/bad ending. But we don't ever find out much about Radagasst te brown, and I don't think even Tolkien knew what happened to the Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando).

He definitely said he did not know (see Unfinished Tales, he only says he "is afraid they failed"). Concerning Radagast, well, he was not that much of an important character, and since he was in his retreat among the wild animals even during the times of the War of the Ring and all the epic stuff and the only thing that ever drove him out of there (as far as we know) was a vocation from Saruman connected with the threat of the Nine, one should not be even surprised that we don't know more about what happened to him later: he, presumably, remained where he was all the time.
And concerning Gimli and Legolas, we are told quite enough about them in the Appendices, about their journeys together and Gimli's work with the Dwarves in the Glittering Caves, and in the end, they both left, Legolas built a ship and they presumably both reached Eressëa.

[The Might]

Answered by Tolkien in the UT:

Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

Just as Sauron or the WK he had been reduced to impotence and was no longer capable of assuming physical form. However, should the Dagor Dagorath be true I am sure he would have repented and joined the good side, then again this is only pure speculation on my part.

As for all the other questions that are left more or less unanswered... don't you need some mysteries after all?

And as the Professor himself said in letter #144:

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

Answered by Tolkien in the UT:

Oh yeah, but I guess the question would be "so where it was whithersoever it was doomed to go?" If it means "becomings pure spirit with no power, but wandering still around", like Sauron, that would make sense - yet what does being dissolved by the wind mean? I am aware that the mist that was visible was not the very essence of Saruman, only a phenomenon, visible to the hobbits around, but one keeps thinking about the question "and what if it really completely dissolved him in the way that he really was no more?" (In the meaning, because we know nothing can just disappear, even by the laws of physics, that he would be "blown" into the Void or something.) On the other hand, during the destruction of Mordor we see the big shadowy figure of Sauron disappear in a similar way (the scene is almost the same, only Sauron's departure is "bigger", as he still was on the top of his power at the time he is destroyed), so one can conclude that whatever happened to Sauron also happened to Saruman.

Originally Posted by The Might

Just as Sauron or the WK he had been reduced to impotence and was no longer capable of assuming physical form. However, should the Dagor Dagorath be true I am sure he would have repented and joined the good side, then again this is only pure speculation on my part.

*eyes shine* But actually, is there anything that supports this idea of yours? I mean, is it said anywhere who would take which side, or at least some general example from which you could judge this as probable?

[The Might]

Legate, you do realise the answer is in the quote.
Do the words "pure speculation on my part" ring a bell?
No, I have no idea really.
But, if as he died he did look towards the West, as he was supposed to return to Mandos but this was denied.
I have no clue if in the many ages to come he would hate the Valar for kicking him out or realise his mistake but I hope that he made the good decision like Ar-Pharazon.

As for where his spirit went as far as I am aware this is the only quote from all the works that deals with this and so is the only source of infromation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

Legate, you do realise the answer is in the quote.
Do the words "pure speculation on my part" ring a bell?
No, I have no idea really.

Yes, I got that, but by the formulation I hoped that you have some original, though vague hint that it might have been so.

Originally Posted by The Might

I have no clue if in the many ages to come he would hate the Valar for kicking him out or realise his mistake but I hope that he made the good decision like Ar-Pharazon.

Hey wait, so that old idio... ahem, that old king repented? Now that's indeed silly. In that case Saruman must have as well. I would certainly like him there more than that madman. Just where have I heard that: "To the very same Heaven, as me, the old venerable holy father Saruman? No way!!!"

[Groin Redbeard]

Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

Interesting, thanks for clearing that up Might.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

A little late in the discussion, but new to the board... (and call me Ibrin or Ibri, it's easier)

I don't have my books on hand to go looking for the reference at the moment, but Tolkien did say that Alatar and Pallando, in their falling, may have been the source for persistent "black magic" cults that persist "even to this day" (whatever "this day" might be). I believe he also speculates somewhere that Sauron might have gotten to them before they completed their task of trying to bolster the resistance against him in the East.

My feeling about Saruman's spirit is that he may have wound up in a sort of Limbo -- not the doom of the Void, nor the reward of the Timeless Halls, or even Aman. For him, he may be caught in a personal Purgatory (all rather in keeping with Tolkien's Catholic beliefs) -- not unlike the Wandering Spirits of Dickens' "A Christmas Carol." He did not do what he was supposed to do in that life, and now is condemned to wander among those he could have helped, a witness to all he is now powerless to share or aid. Just my thoughts, of course.

[Gordis]

Quite interesting.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

He did not do what he was supposed to do in that life, and now is condemned to wander among those he could have helped, a witness to all he is now powerless to share or aid. Just my thoughts, of course.

Yes, I also have always thought of it this way: both Sauron and Saruman wandering "naked"- bodiless and powerless through Middle-Earth, unable to assume a form again.
But is contradicts the UT quote given by The Might:
"and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back. "

So, where did the Spirit of Saruman go?

And more general question: where do spirits of disembodied Maiar go? Are they summoned by Mandos like Eru's children or not?
What about Melian for instance?

But I am sure it was not the fate of the nazgul. They were born Men, not Elves or Maiar, and nobody but Eru could have changed their ultimate fate.
Yes, when "killed" by Merry and Eowyn the WK was "reduced to impotence" , that means that his spirit didn't leave for the Halls of Mandos straight away. But it surely did after the Ring was destroyed. It was not in Sauron's power to deny the Nazgul the Gift of Eru after death, though through the Rings their lives were unnaturally stretched and their spirits bound to the Rings.
With the One destroyed and the Nine Rings shorn of their power, there was nothing to keep the nazgul bound to Middle-Earth. They finally died like all Men die and went to Mandos and beyond.

As for Dagor Dagorath - why, interesting idea. Turin and Earendil and the Witch-King in one team.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Contradictions. Oh, yes, this is the downside of having published collections of author's notes, differing versions, ideas, etc. You wind up with so much information, inevitably, some of it is going to contradict -- especially when you have the author admittedly attempting to try to make what he has already written fit into a specific belief system that can't quite manage to hold all the extant details. What happens to a "dead" Maia? (I believe Tolkien did say that Melian shed her physical form and returned to Lorien, so we at least know what happened to her.) Not just Curumo and Sauron, but others like the Balrogs and other servants of Melkor. Tolkien never really says. I know that he tried to come up with some sort of explanation for what happened to the spirits of dead orcs, but never managed to come up with one that he could reconcile both what he believed as a Catholic and what he wanted the orcs to be.

One also has to consider that when we read these stories, we are reading things written from the point of view of a Hobbit or an Elf. They do not know the details of what happens to a fallen Maia, and thus can only speculate. In the case of the Istari, however, we do have one indication of who decides their fate when their real physical bodies died. Upon the death of his body, Gandalf/Olorin went "outside of time and thought," which Tolkien says in one of his letters meant that he left the Circles of the World; his fate was decided by Eru. Eru may have other fates in store for the other fallen Maiar. Since Curumo's body died within the physical world, and the physical world is so much more than just Middle-earth, he may be doomed to a wandering existence that will take him far away from it. I believe it was said that Sauron had so diminished, he would never be able to reembody, and would be nothing more than a shadow of fear and evil in the world. Boy, I think I need to go back and brush up on some of my reading!

[Gordis]

I agree with you, Ibri.
Gandal'f case might however have been an exception - maybe he was summoned to give an account of his mission and agreed to it. Take Sauron at the Downfall. Eru was "very much present" at the moment, but still Sauron was able to return in spirit form to ME unhindered. Though, maybe, it was the Ring that helped him. Yes, I think so.
But I somehow doubt that Melian has been summoned to Eru, or the Barlogs.

It looks like Saruman's spirit wished to return to Valinor as Melian's did, but he was refused admittance (that's how I read this West wind reference)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, Melian didn't die, or, perhaps more to the point, she wasn't killed. She surrendered the body she was in and returned to Valinor, and thus exercised free will in the matter. Tolkien does point out that the bodies of the Istari were "real and not feigned"; I believe he states somewhere amid all his writings that though they were not subject to death by old age, they were truly corporeal and not fanar. This particular aspect was apparently imposed on them by the nature of their mission and how the Valar wanted it carried out, the flesh diminishing their power and memories at the same time it gave them a clearer understanding of what it meant to live as truly and naturally incarnate beings.

I myself have long wondered about where these "real" bodies came from. We know that when one of the Ainur attaches his or herself to their fana for too long, it becomes "real" in the sense that they can no longer discard as they would clothing (which Tolkien tells us is the usual case for an Ainu shedding his fana). But is the making of a "real" body for themselves within the power of the Ainur in Ea? One would think so, from Melian's case (since one would presume a real body was necessary in order for her to have a child with Thingol), but Tolkien never actually says where her body came from, and why she was able to leave it without a terrible cost to herself. Then again, maybe there was a terrible cost to herself, which is why she has never sung again. We just don't know. Since we know of no other Elf/Ainu couples, perhaps Eru did have a hand in it.

At any rate, Eru clearly doesn't decide the fate of beings like the Balrogs, but perhaps only He knows what becomes of them after they have suffered a bodily death from which they finally cannot return. It's an interesting matter to ponder.

[The Might]

A nice idea indeed with purgatory, could be a possibility.

[Gwathagor]

I'm pretty sure that Radagast hangs around for a couple millenia. He later assists a young Briton named Arthur in becoming High King of Britain, and is immortalized in medieval legend and romance as the wizard Merlin.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I'm pretty sure that Radagast hangs around for a couple millenia. He later assists a young Briton named Arthur in becoming High King of Britain, and is immortalized in medieval legend and romance as the wizard Merlin.

Ha! I made that same tongue-in-cheek speculation a few years ago. It seems only too appropriate a future for Aiwendil, especially since Merlin was "spirited away" by Nimue. Which one of the Maia ladies came to fetch him, I wonder...?

[Gwathagor]

AND a merlin is a kind of hawk...what more appropriate name for Aiwendil, the lover of birds and beasts, to assume?

[The Might]

A very, very interesting theory.

I was curious to learn more so I of course did what all others do - Wikipedia.
But listen to this interesting part:

In this narrative, Kentigern meets in a deserted place with the naked, hairy madman Lailoken, also called Merlynum or "Merlin", who declares that he has been condemned for his sins to wander in the company of beasts.

Also:

C. S. Lewis used the figure of Merlin Ambrosius in his 1946 novel That Hideous Strength, the third book in the Space Trilogy. In it, Merlin has supposedly lain asleep for centuries to be awakened for the battle against the materialistic agents of the devil, able to consort with the angelic powers because he came from a time when sorcery was not yet a corrupt art. Lewis's character of Ransom has apparently inherited the title of Pendragon from the Arthurian tradition. Merlin also mentions "Numinor," a nod to J. R. R. Tolkien's Númenor.

Who knows if the Professor wasn't somehow influenced by this and was inspired a bit when he created Radagast.

Just a theory, but a good one I think.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Who knows if the Professor wasn't somehow influenced by this [That Hideous Strength] and was inspired a bit when he created Radagast.

Not possible, since Radagast's creation predated THS by several years. Indeed he goes back at least in name to The Hobbit; and the passages in LR where he is mentioned date from 1939-40.

[The Might]

Indeed something I overlooked.

EDIT: But, he still might have been influenced by the myth.