Films gain major convert

[Sauron the White]

I am sure many of you are aware of the excellent site The Tolkien Library run by Pieter Collier. It is a great way to keep up with print news regarding JRRT and Middle-earth. They have a feature article which came out over the weekend titled BEST TOLKIEN BOOKS OF 2007. Among the books featured was The Frodo Franchise by Kristin Thompson.

The Collier site says this about the Thompson book:

This is one of the books that I enjoyed a lot. It was even hard to put down and I had to read it until the end before I could let it go. On the inside flap of the book The Frodo Franchise, to be published on the 1st of August 2007, we read these words by Tom Shippey and this is exactly how I feel about this book:
"This is the best all-around view of the Tolkien phenomenon. Thompson understands the books, she understands the movies--she also understands the money and the franchising. Best of all, she understands the people. Thompson offers cultural criticism of the highest order, examining one of the most significant shifts in contemporary popular media." It is a must read for any Tolkien fans. I have always been very much against the movie adaptions, but now have changed my view almost completely - thanks Chrisitine Thompson! Read an interview with the author here.

The part I felt was worth noting was the sentence near the end where the author says they were "very much against the movie adaptions, but now have changed my view almost completely..."
Looks like the Purist camp has a major defection and the film buffs have gained a well known convert.

[Thinlómien]

I really don't understand the division of fans to film buffs and purists and making these two camps opposite to each other and having some sort of class wars... Plain silliness, if you ask me.

[davem]

I think a 'major convert' would be someone like CT or Verlyn Flieger.....

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Shippey was never a Purist in the first place. At best a Pragmatist.

[Bêthberry]

I think hyperbole is simply a functional aspect of StW's style.

That might explain his taste in movies too.

[Lord Gothmog]

Looks like the Purist camp has a major defection and the film buffs have gained a well known convert.

And who would that be then????

This is the best all-around view of the Tolkien phenomenon.

Perhaps, maybe I will have a look.

Thompson understands the books, she understands the movies-

And I suppose no one who dislikes the films in any way can possibly do so?

she also understands the money and the franchising.

And??

Best of all, she understands the people.

And which people would that be?

Thompson offers cultural criticism of the highest order, examining one of the most significant shifts in contemporary popular media.

Good I could do with fertiliser for my garden.

It is a must read for any Tolkien fans.

Why? Tolkien fans did not need someone to tell them that 'The Hobbit', 'The Lord of the Rings' and 'The Silmarillion' were good books. They told the critics. So why would Tolkien fans need someone to tell them that they should fall down and thank the divine PJ for what he put on screen. I make up my mind on what PJ showed me the same as I did with what Tolkien showed.

I have always been very much against the movie adaptions, but now have changed my view almost completely

Perhaps he should have watched the films before making up his mind. Personaly, I was dubious of the claims I had heard for the films and knew that they would not fallow the book as some said. So in watching them I found that while I disliked the unnessasary changes make to the story by PJ, overall the films were for the most part enjoyable. I very much doubt that increasing understanding for the rubbish will change my view of them which can be summed up by a Meatloaf song. "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad".

[Sauron the White]

Lord Gothmog..... anybody who quotes from the great Meat Loaf -- well Jim Steinman actually, cannot be all bad.

I did think it was interesting that after all these years minds - or one mind in this case, has been changed. And the person is of some note in Tolkien circles for his website which does a great job at reporting book news.

Bethberry - regarding my style and approach --- I did not write the story, merely copied it and reported on it with the exception of my comment at the end. But thank you for noticing

[Lord Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Lord Gothmog..... anybody who quotes from the great Meat Loaf -- well Jim Steinman actually, cannot be all bad.

Thank you. It is true, not All,

I did think it was interesting that after all these years minds - or one mind in this case, has been changed. And the person is of some note in Tolkien circles for his website which does a great job at reporting book news.

I agree that it is interesting. But to me, the only changes of mind that I would take real note of would be JRRT (impossible) or PJ (unlikely). From what I have seen in threads about the films is that many of the opinions were set in stone before the films were even started, let alone released.

The one opinion that I had about the films that was set in stone, was that Nobody could really 'Get it Right'. The reason I felt (and still feel) this, is because The Lord of the Rings is Mythology. I have yet to see ANY film based on mythology where the film maker 'Gets it Right'. The best that can be hoped for is that an enjoyable film is made.

In my view, PJ made some major errors in all three films but managed to make two of them enjoyable.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I really don't understand the division of fans to film buffs and purists and making these two camps opposite to each other and having some sort of class wars... Plain silliness, if you ask me.

Well, usually it's the purists who seem to draw the battle lines. Many seem to have the opinion that the terms 'movie lover' and 'hardcore Tolkien fan' are mutually exclusive; that only purists are real fans of the books and movie-ists barely know anything about them. Plus there's a 'I'm better than you' feeling among them.

No offence to barrow-downers; I'm talking about various other purists I've found over the internet that made my blood boil with their attitudes.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Lord Gothmog

I agree that it is interesting. But to me, the only changes of mind that I would take real note of would be JRRT (impossible) or PJ (unlikely). From what I have seen in threads about the films is that many of the opinions were set in stone before the films were even started, let alone released.

Lord Gothmog, you'll find that many of the greatest fans of Tolkien's works are also fans of the movies, and many even helped in their making. Alan Lee, John Howe, David Salo, Michael Martinez, Ted Nasmith etc. And as for Christopher Tolkien, to the best of my knowledge he's never even watched the films, so I don't believe his opinion of them is wholly justified.

[Lord Gothmog]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

Lord Gothmog, you'll find that many of the greatest fans of Tolkien's works are also fans of the movies, and many even helped in their making. Alan Lee, John Howe, David Salo, Michael Martinez, Ted Nasmith etc. And as for Christopher Tolkien, to the best of my knowledge he's never even watched the films, so I don't believe his opinion of them is wholly justified.

I am well aware that "many of the greatest fans of Tolkien's works are also fans of the movies" and I have no problem with that (though I would change 'greatest' to 'well known' and would include in the list Christopher Lee ). I formed my opinion of the films after I saw them and while I am not a "Fan" I did enjoy two of them at least.

As for Christopher Tolkien, he is as entitled to his view as anyone else. I would take the same note of his opinion of the films as I would any other.

When I said

From what I have seen in threads about the films is that many of the opinions were set in stone before the films were even started, let alone released.

I was refering to the fact that many who argued on threads about the films either as "Purists" or "Filimies" simply continued with the same unchanged views.

I will say that the majority of posters on such threads I have seen did wait to see the films first though.

[Sauron the White]

Here is a fuller explaination from Pieter Collier of the Tolkien Library website regarding his changing opinion on the films.

I am one of the people who were very critical towards the movies. I can recall the announcement of the Peter Jackson interpretation and from the beginning I was filled with fear towards it. Of course I was curious and there for went to the avant-premi?re of the movie. The Fellowship of the Rings took away a lot of my fears and I was happy to see that Peter Jackson´s interpretation was very close to my personal imagination. Yet the second and especially the third movie were very disappointing and I was sad, angry and very uncomfortable about it all. I felt that the movies were too far away of my own vision of the books and I felt that too many things had been changed, deleted or added.

Now I read the book The Frodo Franchise by Christine Thompson, a book everyone really should read, and I regained a lot of respect for the work of Peter Jackson. I now have much more understanding on how the movie was made and what difficulties Peter Jackson had to face to get it all done. The book also shows us all the hard labor and passion by the director to create the best movie possible.

I find it admirable that he would change his opinion after gaining more knowledge of just how the film business works and the hurdles Jackson had to overcome to get a quality product on screen. In my humble opinion, many others would do well to educate themselves to the process to gain a fuller knowledge of just what movie making entails.

[Lord Gothmog]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Here is a fuller explaination from Pieter Collier of the Tolkien Library website regarding his changing opinion on the films.



I find it admirable that he would change his opinion after gaining more knowledge of just how the film business works and the hurdles Jackson had to overcome to get a quality product on screen. In my humble opinion, many others would do well to educate themselves to the process to gain a fuller knowledge of just what movie making entails.

It does show that he is at least open-minded enough to accept new ideas. Perhaps I should have a read, maybe it will give a good reason for having Arwen put a sword to Aragorn's throat.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And as for Christopher Tolkien, to the best of my knowledge he's never even watched the films

He has.

BTW, most Tolkien scholars are not disposed to regard the names "Salo" and "Martinez" especially favorably.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

He has.

How do you know?

BTW, most Tolkien scholars are not disposed to regard the names "Salo" and "Martinez" especially favorably.

Why is that? They certainly know their Tolkien well. Martinez's essays really helped further my understanding of Middle-earth, and Salo has to be one of the best Tolkien linguists out there.

EDIT: Salo I understand. Whenever there is a shortage of defined words in a Tolkien language, he makes up new words and grammar to 'fill the gap' which, I suppose would provoke the ire of some Tolkienists. For example, most of the Khuzdul, Orcish, Black Speech etc. used in the movies are actually words invented by Salo, since Tolkien only defined a handful of words for those languages.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

How do you know?

We correspond. He was not impressed.

Salo: in addition to synthesizing 'neo-Sindarin', Salo also has a habit of 'correcting' attested JRRT forms when they don't fit his personal theories- and then not indicating that he's done so. It doesn't help that he continually badmouths other Tolkien linguists.

As for Martinez, well, "His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it." MM does know his stuff (when he's not using it to prop up one of his crank-ish theories)- but he's possessed of a singularly abrasive personality, which manifests itself in flames, accusations and personal insults. Not many people in the community can tolerate him any more.

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

We correspond. He was not impressed.

I thought Christopher doesn't communicate with anybody except through his lawyers? Well, if that's true, could you tell me what he thought of the films?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I thought Christopher doesn't communicate with anybody except through his lawyers?

You make him sound like some sort of misanthropic old hermit, keeping the rev'nooers off his still with a shotgun!

CT is a very pleasant, sociable and witty fellow. He doesn't give out his home address to just anybody because, come on, do you remember what happened to his father before he fled into hiding in Bournemouth? JK Rowling doesn't give out where she lives, either.

You can write to him, if you like, c/o his publishers (like any author); and if your letter is polite and intelligent in due course you can expect a reply.

Well, if that's true, could you tell me what he thought of the films?

I'm afraid I can't. This is an especially sensitive area, for reasons discussed on this board; and CT wouldn't want his private critique circulated publicly. Suffice it to say he thought a better job could have been done.

[davem]

Interestingly, if you use the Ixquick search engine phone directory you can get addresses for both Priscilla (Oxford) & Adam Tolkien (in France)

though it don't say if they're current...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Priscilla has always been in the Oxford phone book. Apparently she doesn't attract the number of deranged fans that besiege her better-known brother. Adam's address I didn't know about, but I know you can reach him by e-mail through the 'Contact' page at www.tolkienestate.com (he's the webmaster).

[MatthewM]

Interesting. William, could you tell me CT's publisher's address? I would love to write him. Thanks.

[zxcvbn]

I respect Christopher's privacy, but I wish he made his views on the movies public. It would be very entertaining to read a nice, long commentary on the films similar to what Tolkien wrote for the Robin Zimmerman script.

By the way, WCH, does he read e-mails or will I have to go to the trouble of writing and posting a real letter?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

CT doesn't do e-mail. He's 83 years old, and of another generation. He typed all of his published books on a manual typewriter!

In the US use:

c/o Houghton Mifflin Company
222 Berkeley Street
Boston, MA 02116-3764

[Sauron the White]

There is something warm and comforting about picturing CT huched over an old manual typewriter pecking out more notes on Middle-earth history. Use of a modern computer and keyboard somehow just does not seem right in that world.

[zxcvbn]

I don't know. I have most of JRRT's books in e-book form, and while the feeling is different from reading the hard copy, I find it's a lot quicker to finish. For example I first read Unfinished Tales in e-book form and finished it in just 3 hours. Later I was surprised to find that it had over 300 pages.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

You do realize that's illegal, don't you?

[Sauron the White]

zxcvbn ..... could you explain how it is so much faster to read an e-book than a regular book? This really astounds me. And everyone who would get JRRT's works in e-book form should be reminded of the personal note to potential customers placed in the LOTR Ballantine editions following the Ace Books debacle. Perhaps someone owning an old paperback can print that admonishment for us. Perhaps e-books are the new Ace Books in that regard?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

... JRRT's ... personal note to potential customers ... in the LOTR Ballantine editions following the Ace Books debacle. Perhaps someone owning an old paperback can print that admonishment for us.

Here it is, straight from the Foreword to my 1973 Ballantine's edition. The most important sentence ("This paperback edition...") is also printed on the back of each of the separate books. This paragraph is no longer included in the Foreword of new editions and certainly bears repeating under these circumstances.

I hope that those who have read The Lord of the Rings with pleasure will not think me ungrateful: to please readers was my main object, and to be assured of this has been a great reward. Nonetheless, for all its defects of omission and inclusion, it was the product of long labour, and like a simple-minded hobbit I feel that it is, while I am still alive, my property in justice unaffected by copyright laws. It seems to me a grave discourtesy, to say no more, to issue my book without even a polite note informing me of the project: dealings one might expect of Saruman in his decay rather than from the defenders of the West. However that may be, this paperback edition and no other has been published with my consent and co-operation. Those who approve of courtesy (at least) to living authors whill purchase it and no other. And if the many kind readers who have encouraged me with their letters will add to their courtesy by referring friends or enquirers to Ballantine Books, I shall be very grateful. To them, and to all who have been pleased by this book, especially those Across the Water for whom it is intended, I dedicate this edition.

May I add an official word on behalf of the Downs administration: We do not condone any illegal downloading of films and books and will remove all links and references to them from this forum. Thank you!

[zxcvbn]

Hmmm...looks like my post kicked up quite a fuss. Let me tell you that I own all those books in hard copy as well. When I want to lie down and get comfortable with a nice book I use the hard copies. I normally only use the e-book versions when I'm hunting down quotes and references for Tolkien discussions(Adobe has a 'search' function which really helps). In fact, that's the main reason I downloaded them: looking through the books for the exact lines can be time consuming.

[davem]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

Hmmm...looks like my post kicked up quite a fuss. Let me tell you that I own all those books in hard copy as well. When I want to lie down and get comfortable with a nice book I use the hard copies. I normally only use the e-book versions when I'm hunting down quotes and references for Tolkien discussions(Adobe has a 'search' function which really helps). In fact, that's the main reason I downloaded them: looking through the books for the exact lines can be time consuming.

The words 'hole', 'in a', 'digging', 'stop' & 'when you're' spring to mind.....

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by davem

The words 'hole', 'in a', 'digging', 'stop' & 'when you're' spring to mind.....

Okay, okay. No more mention of that. I suppose I should delete it now...

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

In the US use:

c/o Houghton Mifflin Company
222 Berkeley Street
Boston, MA 02116-3764

Thanks a lot. He lives in England though, correct?

[zxcvbn]

No, Christopher lives in France with his wife Baille. Atleast that's what the jacket of the Children of Hurin says.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

BTW, the typwriter in question was originally JRRT's purchased in 1959 and on which much of the late Middle-earth stuff was done. So there is considerable tradition there!

[MatthewM]

Nice. Hey William, I have a question for you--- when you write CT, do you enclose a self addressed envelope? I am going to, but my main question is if your answer is yes, did you put stamps on it? As I am not 100% sure as to what country CT is in --- I am thinking about not putting stamps on my letter.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

No need for an SASE- CT doesn't mind shelling out for a couple of stamps!