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12-29-2007, 10:51 AM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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There is now no ship...
In the year 1541 SR, several big events happen. Aragorn - King Elessar dies and Legolas builds a ship and takes Gimli with him down the Anduin and over the Sea. Elessar tells Arwen that she can repent and go into the West through the Grey Havens. But she tells him that "there is now no ship that would bear me hence".
This is causing me a bit of confusion. If Legolas can build a ship and take Gimli with him to the West, why cannot Arwen go with them? Does her choice prohibit that option? If Gimli would be admitted to Valinor, and it seems that he would, why would not Arwen be permitted to go? Was she not aware of the ship Legolas built? If she was, could she had used it? |
12-29-2007, 11:15 AM | #2 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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Notice the word 'would' no ship would because she was now a mortal maiden after she made her choice to stay in Middle Earth at the end of the third age.
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12-29-2007, 04:19 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I love that quote. To me, it has so much meaning buried in it.
It is my opinion that she did not desire to leave. Aragorn, whom she cared for most was now gone. Perhaps she chose to stay in Middle-earth because it made her feel closer to him. Also, Middle-earth is the only land she knew, so this would make leaving hard. She probably didn't have the same longing to go as the others. Perhaps being mortal would lessen the desire to go to Valinor also.
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12-29-2007, 08:57 PM | #4 |
Haunting Spirit
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Arwen did not leave because even in Valinor she would find no healing from the separation of the death of Aragorn. Her release was that of mortal death. She knew when she sacrificed everything for her love of and for Aragorn that the price would be she would out live him by several years, and that her only release of the pain of his death and being separated from him would be mortal death. I suspect she would not actually find solace in going to Valinor. It’s a pretty human condition, once someone loses someone they love, a part of them dies and sometimes death is the sweet release they are longing for, not to live forever with the memories of what was and what was lost. This happens when people loose children, many times it destroys the life that is, yet many people can’t get passed it and are waiting for death. Theoden had Eowyn and Eomer to fight for, but he was ready to go to his join his fathers because he had lost his own son. Arwen did not leave because she had nothing left but memories, and she would eventually watch all her children and grandchildren die, and going to Valinor would not change that and could not heal it. Plus she had to seed her place on the last boat to Frodo, who had a chance to heal in Valinor. Arwen’s story is a tragic love story, she knew what she was doing when she decided to chose Aragorn and what the price was choosing him. There was no boat to bear her hence, she did not want a boat to bear her hence.
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12-30-2007, 12:29 AM | #5 |
Wight
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Two things:
1.Arwen was now a mortal woman. Mortals are not permitted to travel to the Undying Lands, with very few exceptions. 2.She had already given up her place on the ship to Frodo. |
12-30-2007, 09:01 AM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Yes, Arwen gave up her spot on the ship to Frodo. But many years later Legolas built a new ship that could have accomodated her. And since exceptions were made - for even a dwarf - could not one be made for the daughter of Elrond?
The ideas that ring most true with me are the ones that she simply did not want to leave Aragorn behind even in death. |
12-30-2007, 04:51 PM | #7 | |||
Wight
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I am not sure that it was clear that Gimli was going to the Undying Lands. Or if he was, then it may have been more like a Purgatory, as it was for Frodo. Even Frodo did not apparently stay there, since it is not in the power of the Valar to convey immortality on any mortal.
As for Arwen, I am not sure that she did want to remain, at least once Aragorn died. In Appendix A, as Aragorn prepares to die, it is clear that she now fully realizes the bittnerness of her mortality Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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12-30-2007, 06:50 PM | #8 |
Mighty Quill
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I do think that Arwen needed to die, not because I didn't like her, but because Arwen would find no healing in Valinor or happiness, once Aragorn died she had no desire to live... At least when Frodo went he still had Bilbo and maybe later Sam, and he was going to die so that means he would not need to cry, yes it is sad when someone you love dies or is seen no more(I have cried many times over my cat that has died and my other cat that was sent away) but I would think that once your true love dies it is different.
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12-30-2007, 07:37 PM | #9 |
Animated Skeleton
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When Elrond left Middle-earth for the West, the time came for his childern to make their decisions as to which people they would have their fate joined to, Eldar or Men. The brothers Elladan and Elrohir seems to have been able to 'delay their decision' by staying for a time in Imladris with Celeborn. However, Arwen did not delay, she made her decision to join her fate with that of Men and marry Aragorn.
There are some choices that do not allow for one to recant or change. This was one of them, in making her choice to join with Man she closed the door to the West. The same decision (with the same result) was made by Elros and he was in a better position to recant his choise and travel to The Undying Lands He was almost in sight of them. This is why There is now no ship that would bear Arwen into the West. She was no longer allowed to go. As for Gimli, we are not certain that he did go into the West as this is only what the Hobbits heard after Legolas left. However, even if he did do so, we do not know the reason why he would be allowed even as far as 'The Lonely Isle'. The only ones we know of for certain are Bilbo and Frodo, both of whom were allowed into the West to have a chance to heal in sprit before dying and leaving Arda.
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12-31-2007, 09:50 AM | #10 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
Arwen chose to be mortal, and even if she did go to the West she's already mortal. And she'll die. The mortals who went to Aman, they don't lose their mortality. But they get healed, pretty way better than in ME anyway. But for a lovesick elf-turned-mortal much like Luthien was, I think no amount of beauty or bliss can heal that.
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12-31-2007, 12:49 PM | #11 | |||
Animated Skeleton
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It is stated in the published Silmarillion and in Letters.
From the Silmarillion: Chapter 24: Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath Quote:
From Tolkien's Letters: 297 Drafts for a letter to 'Mr Rang' Quote:
Quote:
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12-31-2007, 01:36 PM | #12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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from Lord Gothmog
Quote:
"Among the tradition is handed dwon from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea, last of the Ringbearers." By my count that would mean that a majority - five out of nine - of the Fellowship went over the Sea..... Frodo, Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, and Sam. Thats a good deal of exceptions to the rule. |
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12-31-2007, 01:52 PM | #13 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Gandalf and Legolas are hardly 'exceptions.'
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12-31-2007, 01:58 PM | #14 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Sauron the White
As I said, the only ones we know of for certain are Frodo and Bilbo. In your own quote it states: "Among the tradition is handed dwon from Elanor" This is not certainanty but simply rumour that has been given authority. Personaly I would like to think that Sam at the least was allowed to go and see Frodo before he died. But we are not told this definately. Quote:
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12-31-2007, 02:53 PM | #15 |
Haunting Spirit
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Arwen was the exception. Just on the other side. Going to Valinor would not change her situation at all. It would not heal her or change her pain.
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01-05-2008, 07:15 PM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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On Legola's Sailing
On a somewhat related note there are two questions which have bugged me ofr quite a while. (if the answers to both of these are covered somewhere in the canon and I missed it my apoliges for wasting everyones time.)
Firstly, how could a ship bulit by Legolas get to the Undying Lands? Access to the Undying Lands in the Third Age was restricted exclsively to ships of the Falathrim elves. Legolas was an elf but he was Sindar not Falathrim. As an elf he would be entitled to enter the Undying Lands, but a ship built by him would not seem to be able to get there. Secondly did the Falathrim ships and crews actually act like Charon for passegers. That is to say did Falathrimm ships and crews return from the Undying Lands to the Grey Havens,sans passengers, or was each trip for a ship one way with any Falathrim crew also never coming back? and as a subnote were there always Falatrim ships available for the jounery or did weary eleves have to sometimes wait in the Grey Havens for a shipworth of elves to arrive? |
01-05-2008, 10:02 PM | #17 |
Shade with a Blade
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"The Elves who took this road and those few 'mortals' who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the 'History of the world' and could play no further part in it."
I think this is important to understanding why Arwen had to stay (and die). As a result of her decision to marry Aragorn, Arwen became inextricably bound to Middle-earth and the human race as a whole. To leave Middle-earth would involve abandoning the "history of the world" in a way that was no longer an option for her. Also, her death is part and parcel to the sacrifice she made in choosing to remain with Aragorn in Middle-earth. Had she sailed with Legolas, or even alone, it would be cheating. Her sacrifice would be incomplete.
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01-06-2008, 12:11 AM | #18 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Quote:
Moreover, 'Falathrim' was a meaningless term in the Third Age.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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01-09-2008, 05:50 PM | #19 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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My apologies, I read it somewhere in the A-Z of tolkein nad must have misinterpreted the wording. That still leave the second question did Grey Haven Elves return from the Undying Lands (after dropping of those who were leaving middle earth) or was each trip one way for the crew as well (most of the leaving parties seem to be to small to entertain the possibilty that those leaving middle earth crewed their own ships, professional sailor must have been needed sometimes, or did elven ships sail themselves?)
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01-10-2008, 09:24 AM | #20 |
Haunting Spirit
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01-10-2008, 10:28 AM | #21 |
Animated Skeleton
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Hardly, no Numenorean ever set foot on Tol Eressea. As for Ar-pharazon's army I would not really consider being trapped in the Caves of the Forgotten (those that did not sink with the ships) as treading the hallowed ground of Valinor.
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If life was just a rehearsal, Would the show be Cancled. Greetings and Felicitations from the Lord of Balrogs! |
01-10-2008, 11:02 AM | #22 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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My hazy recollection may be wrong but didn't they camp somewhere in Aman, so they did tread and most likely slept on the hallowed ground.
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As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
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