The Elven Rings and the Silmarils

[Lord of Angmar]

I've had a busy day on the barrow downs forum, I must say. This is the first time I've really sat down and tried to discuss the books from a variety of angles with my peers. Its quite fun. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But on to the meat of this post.

I noticed that the three Elven Rings, Vilya, Narya, and Nenya have similar themes to the whereabouts of the Silmarils: Air (Vilya), Fire (Narya), and Water (Nenya). One Silmaril is in the heavens with Earendil (air), one was thrown into a gaping molten chasm (fire) and one was tossed into the sea (water), is it possible that the Three Rings in some way draw their power from the Silmarils? After all, Celebrimbor is descended from Feanor, being the son of Curufin and the grandson of Feanor, forger of the Silmarils. Celebrimbor was the chief in the creation of the Three Rings.

Since the light of Laurelin and Telperion which was captured in the Silmarils and the Rings of the Elf-lords share similar virtues is it not possible to believe that somehow, Celebrimbor drew power (literally, or at least in virtue of thought) from the Silmarils when he forged the Three Rings?

[burrahobbit]

No. Two of the Silmarils are completely out of reach to have done such a thing. They are only similar in that there are so many elements of nature to draw on when writing a story. Furthermore, the Silmarils and the Rings aren't imbued with any additional attributes based on their fates and names (respectively). The Silmarils were all three the same, and the Rings were only named based on their colors.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I agree with burra. The two Silmarils that were lost in Arda are locked up within themselves; they do not actually affect the mediums they are trapped in.
Furthermore, Maedhros's Silmaril did not 'find its long home' in 'fire', but 'earth', and thus it was not connected with fire anyway.

[Helkahothion]

But the silmaril's did not provide power anyway right? They posses the light of the first trees, but don't give might in any form for as much as I know. Unless I am wrong than you can correct me. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It could be possible that they were made in the themes of the silmaril's like a kind of remambrancer.

Abedithon le,

Anuion

[Finwe]

The Silmarils didn't really provide power, they were just "things of beauty." But after Varda hallowed them, then they could prove to be weapons against the forces of darkness, since the latter could not touch or stand up to the Silmarils for very long.

[Lord of Angmar]

I retract my previous statement. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I was simply wondering if perhaps Celebrimbor was thinking of the Silmarils, the works of his forefather, when crafting the Three Rings. I suppose it would be rather ridiculous to believe that the power of the Silmaril could influence the Rings. Thanks!

[Finwe]

Don't worry, speculations start some of the most interesting discussions around here.

I think Celebrimbor was indeed thinking of the Silmarils when he crafted the three Elven Rings. He was a jewel-smith, like his grandfather, and I'm sure that he wanted to be like him, if not greater than him. He was, in a sense, competing with the memory of his grandfather.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Good speculation! Celebrimbor might have been *thinking* of the Silmarils when he made the Rings, thinking of trying to surpass his grandfather.
Other than that, there's little connection between these creations, except maybe because they led to the death of their makers and to strife

[Helkahothion]

Other than that, there's little connection between these creations, except maybe because they led to the death of their makers and to strife

Call me stupid, how did Celebrimbor die anyway?

Abedithon le

[Mahal]

Its in the UT somewhere...He was captured by Sauron to reveal the places of the three rings but Celebrimbor didnt tell them. Because he did not tell Sauron about the rings he killed him and used celebrimbors body on a banier.

[Finwe]

It almost seems as if all of the Noldor, or at least the Royal House of the Noldor, all died horrible, or at least unnatural, deaths.

Finwë --> murdered by Morgoth
Fëanor --> killed by a slew of Balrogs
Maedhros --> threw himself into a chasm of fire
Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir, Amrod, and Amras --> all killed in pointless wars in Beleriand (and some say Amras was accidentally burned alive on one of the ships)
Fingon --> killed by Gothmog
Turgon --> killed in the Fall of Gondolin
Aredhel --> killed by Eol
Finrod --> killed on Tol Sirion
Orodreth --> killed in the Fall of Nargothrond
Angrod and Aegnor --> killed in the Dagor Bragollach
Celebrimbor --> killed by Sauron
Gil-galad --> killed by Sauron

Anyone else seen a trend here? Or is it the Doom of Mandos?

[Lord of Angmar]

It was because of the Oath of Feanor and the Doom of Mandos that the kings and princes of the Noldor all died strange deaths, and also it was prophecied by Mandos that nothing crafted or made by the Noldor would last.

[Gorwingel]

This is a quick question, which I should probably know the answer too. But I did a little research and could not find the answer. So here is my inquiry. Where did the three elven rings draw their power from? was it just that they were "magic" or does it have something to do with the one ring? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Helkahothion]

I think they drew magic from their own. They were not called magic rings for nothing. And there are many magic rings in this world, none of them should be used lightly.

Abedithon le

[Lord of Angmar]

The Elven rings drew their po\wer from Arda, from the world of nature. Their virtues of healing and preserving come from their link to nature. Celebrimbor their maker imbued each with the powers, or virtues, of different aspects of nature. For example, Narya, the Ring of Fire which Gandalf wore, took from fire the ability to kindle; to kindle actions and great deeds and to set a flame of courage in the hearts of the timid. And Galadriel's ring, imbued with the virtues of water, was able to cleanse and to keep pristine, as she did with the Elven-realm of Lothlorien.

[ July 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Helkahothion]

Interesting, what did Elrond's ring do?

Abedithon le

quote:
_____________________________________________The Elven rings drew their power from Arda, from the world of nature. Their virtues of healing and preserving come from their link to nature. Celebrimbor their maker imbued each with the powers, or virtues, of different aspects of nature.
_____________________________________________

What about Eru? Could not the powers of the Elven Rings have come from Eru aka Illuvatar?
I thought that is how the Rings were powered.. maybe I am wrong..

[tinewelt]

probably not, because Eru dwells beyond and outside of Arda. He basically works "through" the Valar, and I believe the powers were like you stated, from nature. Although, I do believe of course that Illuvatar could intervene at anytime he wishes, he does not. A theory to match yours might be that the rings get their power from Arda, which is Eru, because he created it. But I still do not believe that the powers run through him. Also, The elven lords of old were much more gifted in craft than the elves you see in the third age. (except Galadriel, Elrond, celerimbror and all the other lords who did not perish) The elves of the latter days of the third age had not the power of their previous lords, thats why nothing "new" (equal to the rings) has been created since. It is my opinion that the rings drew their power from arda itself. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Namarie~

[Lyta_Underhill]

The elves of the latter days of the third age had not the power of their previous lords, thats why nothing "new" (equal to the rings) has been created since. It is my opinion that the rings drew their power from arda itself.

Was it not Sauron in his guise as Annatar, Lord of Gifts, who taught the Elves of Eregion the craft of making the Rings of Power? I would tend to think that the power does come from Arda itself, but also that it is fragmented and channelled; after all, how would Celebrimbor imbue each of the Three with different elemental characteristics? I think it is Sauron's craft technique that enables the Rings to exhibit their "power" but also that makes them subject to the One, which is forged with much greater directed power, being a good half of Sauron's being, I think. Thus Celebrimbor uses a neutral technique that he understands basically but Sauron uses the same technique to overpower the lesser Rings of Power with the One. When I think about it in this way, it sounds much more like sorcery, the forcing of a single will or wills onto the ordering of nature. A late night theory of my own, anyway, and I suppose it doesn't have anything to do with the Silmarils--I think they got their power from their creator and his medium, and they were simply powerful symbols or tokens reflecting the creative fire of Fëanor and the long remembered Light of the Two Trees. More a link to the source of remembered bliss than an expression of willful power, almost wistful for those who do not actively pursue them.... Thanks for listening to me ramble!

Cheers,
Lyta

[Helkahothion]

Nah it's pretty interesting actualy. What I wonder, the three silmarils had the lights of the two trees. What's the deal with that? Where the lights mixed up in each stone or was it like two of Laurelin and one of the other tree (I forgot the name) ?

Abedithon le

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Where the lights mixed up in each stone or was it like two of Laurelin and one of the other tree (I forgot the name) ?

I don't think it says anything about it in the Sil, but I guess they'd be mixed up. Seems prettier that way [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

Of course, I'm probably completely wrong... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

-Aredhel

[Lyta_Underhill]

Where the lights mixed up in each stone or was it like two of Laurelin and one of the other tree (I forgot the name) ?

I suppose the most symmetrical way to do it would be to have one with the Light of Laurelin, one with the Light of Telperion and one with the two Lights mingled together...I remember there were two parts of the day in which one tree waned and the other waxed in their cycles, when this blending of lights was explicitly stated to take place, although at the time it was always "light" in Valinor.

Also, I don't think the Silmarils were ever referred to differentially. It was "the Silmarils" or "a Silmaril" so differences between each one, to my knowledge, were never brought up.

Cheers,
Lyta

[ July 25, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Dûrbelethwen]

I have been thinking about this for a while now and have decided to put it up here for discussion. Is there a connection between the fate of the Silmarils and the designations of the elven rings of power (air, water, fire)? Not only that but also the fact that the ring of air eventually came to Elrond who would have been the heir to the Silmaril that ended up in the air?

[Dûrbelethwen]

I am bumping this up since the moderators told me to incorparte my thread with this one. A couple of things to add to this subject. One was there a deeper reason that Elrond got the ring of air, the fate of the Silmaril that he would have inheirted had it stayed in Middle Earth?
Also the Silmarils burned the hands of those who it did not belong to (Morgoth, Maedhros, Maglor). According to the Unfinished tales the One Rings burned the hands of those to who it did not belong to as well(Islidur, and possibly Saruman if he had found it).

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Any of the smart people on here, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the Silmarilli burned the hands of those who were unclean. Thus, Morgoth because he was evil, and Maedhros and Maglor because they were corrupted by their Oath and the actions that they had taken to attempt to fulfill that Oath, not because they did not belong to the brothers. (By rights of inheritance, after all, the Silmarils did belong to them, didn't they? Or did they forfeit that by all the wicked deeds between?)

The One Ring burned Isildur, if my memory serves, because it was still hot from Sauron's hand. If it burned those 'to whom it did not belong,' then wouldn't it have burned Gollum and Deagol and Bilbo and Frodo and Sam?

But as for that, I believe that the One and the Three were a different issue--I can't recall any instance of one of the Three falling into the hands of someone to whom they did not belong, but that might simply be because I have not read everything out there yet. I'm working on it, though.

[Dûrbelethwen]

"The One Ring burned Isildur, if my memory serves, because it was still hot from Sauron's hand. If it burned those 'to whom it did not belong,' then wouldn't it have burned Gollum and Deagol and Bilbo and Frodo and Sam?"

According to the Unfinished tales Isildur continued to be afraid to touch the ring on his journey to Rivendell. Also it said in the Unfinished Tales(which is why I mentioned it) that Saruman prepared a box to carry the one ring in if he ever found it(he thought it was where Gollum found it but he did not know it had been found by Gollom) which is similar to what Isildur did. I think it did not burn the Third Age ring bearers because they were permitted to carry the ring. I think the same goes through with those in the Simarils. Beren and Luthian earned the right to have the Simarils but because of their trechery Feanor's sons did not.

[Angry Hill Troll]

There are some interesting patterns of things that come in three's, including the elven rings and the Silmarils. Here's my symbolic interpretation in tabular form--each column are things that go together across each category (unfortunately the formatting doesn't allow me to align the columns )

Domains of Arda: Air Fire/Earth(1) Water

Valar: Manwë Aulë Ulmo

Color: Blue Red Grey/White

Elven Kindreds: Vanyar Noldor Teleri

Noldorin Houses(2): Fingolfin Fëanor Finarfin

Silmaril: Eärendil's Maédhros's Maglor's

Elven Ring: Vilya Narya Nenya

Ringbearer(3): Gil-galad ??? Galadriel

Notes:

(1) It seems that in Arda, fire and earth are treated as being equivalent, unlike the aristotelian picture of the four elements of air, earth, fire, and water. For instance, the Silmarillion says that the silmaril that Maédhros took found its home "in the fires of the earth" and also that Eru put the Flame Imperishable in the heart of the world. Furthermore, Aulë, the vala having dominion over the substances of which Arda is made, is a smith, using fire.

(2) Fëanor's house was the only purely Noldorin one of Finwë's descendents. Fingolfin was half Vanyar, and his name was taken form a combination of Finwë's and Ingwë's. Finarfin is married to Eärwen (a telerin elf).

(3) Referring to the original ringbearers of the Three. Gil-galad was the original possessor of Vilya, which then passed to Elrond; both are descendents of Fingolfin. Galadriel (Finarfin's daughter) seems to have borne Nenya from the beginning. Narya is kind of a mystery, it was in Gil-Galad's possession, then kept by Cirdan, who according to one of the versions of the story in which he gives it to Gandalf in HoME X, never seems to have used it. My (purely speculative) thought is that Celebrimbor had originally intended to keep Narya for himself, thus the heir of each of the Finwë's sons would have one of the Three Rings.

In response to what someone said on whether the Three Rings were different in their powers, what Círdan says to Gandalf while giving him Narya suggests that they are different:

For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea...

Is this last statement in part an explanation of why Círdan never used Narya?

[Eruanna]

Celebrimbor had sent both Narya and Vilya out of Eregion to keep them away from Sauron's clutches. He sent them to Gil-galad, in Lindon where he hoped they would be safe.
Gil-galad gave Narya to Cirdan, who in turn, passed it on to Gandalf saying:

"It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle." from Unfinished Tales: The Istari

I don't think that Cirdan was ever actually meant to use Narya, he was merely to keep it secret and safe until Gandalf came along.