HOB - Chapters into Scenes Weekly - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sauron the White · 12-21-2007, 02:34 PM

Would anyone here be up for doing a weekly chapter by chapter discussion of THE HOBBIT gearing it to how that can be filmed into scenes for the upcoming movie? We would take one chapter per week, discuss how we would like to see it filmed - or what should not be filmed - or what could be added - or anything you desire in the way of turning that chapter into a movie.

If we get enough interest we could start soon. Post here if interested.

Nazgûl-king · 12-21-2007, 02:37 PM

I think that would be fun, I would be interested. I was planning on re-reading The Hobbit anyway. Would this be put in its own sub-forum like the Chapter by Chapter area in the books section? If so we could call it something like this:

From Book to Movie
Join us for chapter-by-chapter discussions on how the chapters from The Hobbit could be turned into scenes in the film.

Sauron the White · 12-21-2007, 03:10 PM

It certainly could be if there was enough interest and the mods set it up that way. Glad to see you are on board Nazgul-king.

Sir Kohran · 12-21-2007, 05:35 PM

I would also be interested in this. Sure, a lot of interest in the movie sequence by sequence died out, but that may simply have been because it went on so long.

***Thenamir*** · 12-21-2007, 06:02 PM

I'd like to participate in this, if it gets started. Veterans of the REB RP in the Gondor forum will know that it would be a bad idea for me to take the reins, so to speak, since I tend to disappear for extended periods...the call of real life is somewhat maddening, but must be endured. I'll look forward to it!

Folwren · 12-21-2007, 06:17 PM

I would be very interested in this. I've actually been considering writing a script myself, for the jolly fun of it.

I'll look back in as things progress.

Finduilas · 12-21-2007, 07:21 PM

Sound like a good idea STW. I will probably look in from time to time. Or maybe more often...

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 12-24-2007, 01:30 PM

That would be great, when do we start?

Sauron the White · 12-24-2007, 01:52 PM

I was hoping for about ten people minimum .... and figured we could start right after Christmas. In the meantime people may want to think about what image opens the film.

Macalaure · 12-25-2007, 05:42 AM

I think I'm going to participate, too, but I don't yet know how regularly.

Quempel · 12-25-2007, 07:56 PM

I'd like to participate too, however, I mostly lurk so I suppose I could be .5 of a poster.

Folwren · 12-31-2007, 10:46 AM

Well? Is this happening? Or do we still need more people? I'm bringing it back to the top and maybe it'll catch some new person's eye.

-- Folwren

Sauron the White · 12-31-2007, 10:49 AM

Thank you Folwren for the reminder. Why don't we start now. Opening question:

How should the film open? What would be the first scene you want in a film of THE HOBBIT?

Folwren · 12-31-2007, 12:16 PM

I was about to say the hobbit hole door...but what if the opening was the dwarven city under and around the Lonely Mountain. Or perhaps of Thorin with his friends on an outing away from the mountain. And then the dragon is seen coming. Panic and disorder errupts. Smaug wrecks the place and decends on the mountain in fire and smoke. One sees a great deal of death and destruction...Thorin and his companions creep up and see what has happened and then flee the place.

There's a rough sketch of something that could be very interesting.

Anyway, from there, it cuts to the scene at Bag-end with Bilbo Baggins smoking in front of his door.

Sauron the White · 12-31-2007, 01:27 PM

Folwren... my mind has been working along the same line as yours in this regard. The only thing I wonder about is the similarity between the opening of FOTR in 2001 and the next movie in three years. Consider if they did this as the opening:

- we get a historical prologue telling us some of the history of the Dwarves in Middle-earth. We could see how Sauron created the rings and gave them to the Dwarves with Durin III getting the first. We are told that while this failed to control the Dwarves the same way it did the kings of Men, it did inflame them for treasure and riches. We see some of their great cities and wealth and then part of the War of Dwarves and Orcs. We see the climactic moment with Azog and his eventual death. We see the Dwarves bringing prosperity to Dale and the Mountain and then the arrival of Smaug and how he emptied the Mountain of Dwarves. Maybe the last thing we see is Thror and Thrain escaping with their lives and a reference to the secret door.

Then from that we go into the Shire of Bilbo and the arrival of Gandalf.

Would this be too similar in format to what we saw earlier in FOTR? Would that matter? Are we seeing too much history too soon? Should some of that be held for later when Gandalf and Thorin can explain it with flashbacks?

Folwren · 12-31-2007, 01:35 PM

Interesting thoughts. But I think...I think it would be too much history for the beginning of The Hobbit. If they intend to do just the story of the Hobbit and not the story of kicking the Necromancer (sp) out of Mirkwood, all that history should not be included. However, if they do have the White Councel and kicking Sauron out of Tol Brandir, then they may want some history on it....

But I was thinking that some of the history should be saved for Thorin and Gandalf to tell Bilbo, as you just said.

That's why I suggested stopping with Thorin and his friends running off, so that later, Thorin can tell about meeting his father and grandfather, and Gandalf can tell about the map, the key, and possibly the ring.

Sauron the White · 12-31-2007, 01:50 PM

So, the film should open in the Shire with Bilbo and let all the history come later in tales from Gandalf and Thorin?

How do others feel about that?

Quempel · 12-31-2007, 02:56 PM

I think its a good tie into the rest of the movies. And having the prolouge like the FOTR would be good too. Have Gandalf in his wagon slowly going through the shire as Bilbo is fussing around the house.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 12-31-2007, 05:28 PM

I think that it should open with Bilbo smoking at his door step and have Gandalf come up. Once the dwarves enter, they start talking about their situation along with the history of their perdicurment. All being flashbacks of Thorin.

Folwren · 12-31-2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

I think that it should open with Bilbo smoking at his door step and have Gandalf come up. Once the dwarves enter, they start talking about their situation along with the history of their perdicurment. All being flashbacks of Thorin.

I thought of that, too...but it almost seems to tame a beginning for movies no adays and for such a movie. A dragon coming and wracking ruin and destruction seems a perfect beginning! ... in my opinion, that is.

But a hobbit smoking a pipe in front of his door step just as Tolkien intended would be fine, too.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 12-31-2007, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folwren

I thought of that, too...but it almost seems to tame a beginning for movies no adays and for such a movie. A dragon coming and wracking ruin and destruction seems a perfect beginning! ... in my opinion, that is.

But a hobbit smoking a pipe in front of his door step just as Tolkien intended would be fine, too.

Well, I thought about the draqgon factor, but it just seemed too, well dramatic. I guess that it was also that dramatic in FotR when the prologue goes straight to the Shire( in the EE, which is what I have open up to Bilbo and his little speech about Concerning Hobbits) but the thing is, I always skip that part and is waisting valuable time.

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Meneltarmacil · 12-31-2007, 07:37 PM

Well, I'd say the first scene ought to be Bilbo being visited by Gandalf. A flashback at the beginning would really take away from the Dwarves' telling their tale, and it would ruin much of the surprise and mystery that the Unexpected Party would provide. The part in which the Dwarves recount the coming of Smaug is the perfect place to put a flashback.

In the flashback, though, Smaug would best be done as a silhouette, or flames coming from off camera. Seeing the Dragon later on from Bilbo's eyes, only then seeing a full glimpse of Smaug, would be more in line with the book, as the reader is supposed to be seeing the adventure from Bilbo's perspective.

Nogrod · 12-31-2007, 09:01 PM

Smaug's attack on the dwarves would be following a proven method of making an opening. It takes the viewer along with action and the faces introduced there will then be recognized as the dwarves reach Bag End. All nice and shiny. And yes, after the titles it should be Bilbo in front of his door puffing his pipe and Gandalf coming to meet him... Or maybe making the first scene coincide with the entrance of the dwarves? So Bilbo sitting there smoking and then the first dwarf to come forwards... That's how the film people cut things short: do not make two separate introductions (two times different beings come to visit Bilbo) but put all the entrances to one and a same lot.

But why don't we start with Gollum? Let's have a nice teaser-spot in the beginning where Gollum does some mischief to the goblins and escapes with the help of the Ring? After that we get the titles and then we'll have Bilbo smoking and receiving his unexpected guests... And as the dwarves eat and sing they also tell their story (singing it actually - and the viewers are given the images while they sing - some cuts in the middle of the song to the dwarves singing in the cozyness of Bilbo's Bag End!). Not bad either?

Folwren · 12-31-2007, 09:34 PM

Oh! But I think Gollum should be something that is left as a surprise! Besides, showing Gollum at the beginning of the movie will be confusing...he doesn't have that pivotal part in this story....it'd be pointless. If there is any introduction, any prologue, it should have to do with the dwarves and/or the dragon - not with Gollum.

Macalaure · 01-01-2008, 10:11 AM

Starting the film like the book is probably not a favorable thing. The Unexpected Party is maybe the lightest part of the book, even when a lot of childishness is removed. A more dark prologue could win us the favor of the "ignorant part of the audience", so that we could then get away with making the Party more faithful to the book without disappointing some from the beginning on.

I was going to suggest a similar thing as Nogrod just suggested:
One very important scene is how Gollum loses the ring and I can't think of a way to insert it before the Riddles in the Dark part. It also cannot be omitted because that would leave a plot hole. Why not make it the opening scene then? It would be a dark beginning to see Gollum lose the ring while killing an Orc child, that's true, but it would be followed and balanced by the lighter Unexpected Party. Another benefit is that it would connect Hobbit and LotR with maybe the most recognisable character and the most recognisable item of both books. The audience is going to expect Gollum anyway, so leaving him as a surprise isn't going to work.

One thing that I think should not be done is show Smaug in a prologue. That would be a too much of a spoiler. The dragon needs to remain a mystery that is only named and not shown until Bilbo finally meets him.

The bit of dwarven history is very interesting and should definitely be included, but as others have already said, I don't see the necessity to do that in a prologue. We can find some quiet place later where Thorin or Balin can give Bilbo a small history lecture.

Nazgûl-king · 01-01-2008, 12:34 PM

I like the idea of starting with Gollum losing the ring, maybe they could do something like; start with Gollum rowing in his boat, then he sneaks up on land behind a goblin and starts choking it, and as he is choking it the ring escapes him, and we see the ring bouncing from the rocks and then landing on the ground. Then the scene could end with a shot Dol Goldur in the distance, and then we see the opening title and move on to The Shire with Bilbo in front of his door.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-01-2008, 02:27 PM

Gollum appears once! How can you open a movie with someone that appears once? It just doesn't make sense!

Sauron the White · 01-01-2008, 02:59 PM

The Dwarves need their backstory to be explained so that the entire quest of the Dwarves makes some sense. Gollum needs to be right where he is in the story - no more , no less. Open in the Shire with Bilbo, go to Gandalf, then the arrival of Thorin and company, and let them reveal the history to Bilbo and the audience.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-01-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

The Dwarves need their backstory to be explained so that the entire quest of the Dwarves makes some sense. Gollum needs to be right where he is in the story - no more , no less. Open in the Shire with Bilbo, go to Gandalf, then the arrival of Thorin and company, and let them reveal the history to Bilbo and the audience.

Yes, that needs to be the opening scene. It needs to open in a nice sunny scene!

Meneltarmacil · 01-01-2008, 04:02 PM

No extra scene in which the Dwarves explain what's going on really needs to be included in my opinion. There's already one written in the book; filming that (and possibly including some flashback scenes to go along with Thorin's narration) should suffice. The story really ought to begin where Tolkien wanted it to.

A bigger problem, though, involves Bilbo's interaction with Gollum. The flashback in LOTR already contradicts what should happen, as Gollum realizes the Ring is gone at the same time that Bilbo finds it, not like in the book where he doesn't know it's gone until after he's done with the riddles.

Sauron the White · 01-01-2008, 05:27 PM

Mene... are you saying we should not see the Dwarves back history at all or that we should NOT open with that?

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-01-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

No extra scene in which the Dwarves explain what's going on really needs to be included in my opinion. There's already one written in the book; filming that (and possibly including some flashback scenes to go along with Thorin's narration) should suffice. The story really ought to begin where Tolkien wanted it to.

A bigger problem, though, involves Bilbo's interaction with Gollum. The flashback in LOTR already contradicts what should happen, as Gollum realizes the Ring is gone at the same time that Bilbo finds it, not like in the book where he doesn't know it's gone until after he's done with the riddles.

I never thought of Bilbo getting the Ring in the prologue like that! I must be missing something!

Meneltarmacil · 01-01-2008, 10:28 PM

I'm saying that Tolkien already had a scene in which the Dwarves revealed their backstory, and that it should be revealed during that scene.

Oh, and during the prologue, when Bilbo first picks up the Ring, you can hear Gollum shouting "Lost! M-my precious is lost!" at which Bilbo immediately gets up and puts the Ring away nervously.

Folwren · 01-08-2008, 03:45 PM

Shall we discuss the next scene? Gandalf walking up to the door, or what? StW?

Sauron the White · 01-08-2008, 05:54 PM

Folwren ... I am at a loss with just how to proceed. Asking for advice from you and anyone so inclined. Do we need to reach any kind of agreement or is the sole point discussion.

-----------------------------------

and what about the idea of Gandalf first approaching the door and putting the sign upon it .... then going to Bilbo in the next scene.

Folwren · 01-09-2008, 08:59 AM

I don't think we need to expect to come to any sort of agreement about the prologue. We will probably need to agree somewhat on the following scenes, because depending on how one scene ends is will dictate how another scene begins...sometimes.

And as for the meeting of Gandalf and Bilbo, I think we need to have the whole "What do you mean, good morning?" discussion. The hobbit would scarcely be complete, much less begun, without that.

So, I believe what you should say now is, "What comes after the prologue and before the first dwarf arrives?" And if that is quickly decided, we can go on...

Sauron the White · 01-09-2008, 09:15 AM

"What comes after the prologue and before the first dwarf arrives?"

Let us discuss.

Folwren · 01-09-2008, 09:27 AM

Excellent. I'll be here much later in the afternoon to discuss my thoughts.

Sauron the White · 01-10-2008, 04:43 PM

Lets consider the first Shire scenes with Gandalf and Bilbo. In the book there are two different scenes. First, Gandalf shows up and we have the wonderful exchange between the two of them with "good mornings" and Bilbo remembering who Gandalf is. Gandalf departs leaving the message scrawled upon the door of Bag-end. Then Gandalf returns as promised and the Dwarves show up in dribs and drabs until the place is filled up. Both are great scenes.

Question: In the film, should these be two individual scenes divided by a nights intervention, or should they be placed into one scene without the passage of time?

We could hear Gandalf explaining about the message on the door rather than seeing him doing it. This would compact things and get rid of two rather similar looking scenes - at least until the Dwarves arrival.

Quempel · 01-10-2008, 05:55 PM

I think there should be some passage of time. Once Bilbo gets comfortable with one or two dwarves another one or two show up. So he will be setting out tea and various goodies to eat, sits down and as soon as he sits down there's a knock at the door. Have him fussing much the way he was in beginning of FoTR, except instead of hiding he is making teas and setting out cookies and becoming bewildered by it all. I think a small side quip would be him saying something about he has no idea how many dwarves he can fit into Bag End, something where the sheer terror of being an unprepared host would be played upon. All most like the mad-hatter in Alice.

12-21-2007, 02:34 PM	#1
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	HOB - Chapters into Scenes Weekly Would anyone here be up for doing a weekly chapter by chapter discussion of THE HOBBIT gearing it to how that can be filmed into scenes for the upcoming movie? We would take one chapter per week, discuss how we would like to see it filmed - or what should not be filmed - or what could be added - or anything you desire in the way of turning that chapter into a movie. If we get enough interest we could start soon. Post here if interested.

12-21-2007, 02:37 PM	#2
Nazgûl-king Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 104	I think that would be fun, I would be interested. I was planning on re-reading The Hobbit anyway. Would this be put in its own sub-forum like the Chapter by Chapter area in the books section? If so we could call it something like this: From Book to Movie Join us for chapter-by-chapter discussions on how the chapters from The Hobbit could be turned into scenes in the film. Last edited by Nazgûl-king; 12-21-2007 at 02:52 PM.

12-21-2007, 05:35 PM	#4
Sir Kohran Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England, UK Posts: 178	I would also be interested in this. Sure, a lot of interest in the movie sequence by sequence died out, but that may simply have been because it went on so long. __________________ 'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'

12-21-2007, 06:02 PM	#5
*Thenamir* Spectre of Capitalism Join Date: May 2001 Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae Posts: 987	I'd like to participate in this, if it gets started. Veterans of the REB RP in the Gondor forum will know that it would be a bad idea for me to take the reins, so to speak, since I tend to disappear for extended periods...the call of real life is somewhat maddening, but must be endured. I'll look forward to it! __________________ The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. ~~ Marcus Aurelius

12-21-2007, 06:17 PM	#6
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	I would be very interested in this. I've actually been considering writing a script myself, for the jolly fun of it. I'll look back in as things progress. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

12-21-2007, 03:10 PM	#3
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	It certainly could be if there was enough interest and the mods set it up that way. Glad to see you are on board Nazgul-king.

12-21-2007, 07:21 PM	#7
Finduilas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Home. Where rolling green hills and clear rivers are practically my backyard. Posts: 595	Sound like a good idea STW. I will probably look in from time to time. Or maybe more often... __________________ One (1) book of rules and traffic regulations, which may not be bent or broken. ~ The Phantom Tollbooth

12-24-2007, 01:30 PM	#8
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	That would be great, when do we start? __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

12-24-2007, 01:52 PM	#9
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	I was hoping for about ten people minimum .... and figured we could start right after Christmas. In the meantime people may want to think about what image opens the film.

12-25-2007, 05:42 AM	#10
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	I think I'm going to participate, too, but I don't yet know how regularly.

12-25-2007, 07:56 PM	#11
Quempel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In a flower Posts: 97	I'd like to participate too, however, I mostly lurk so I suppose I could be .5 of a poster. __________________ Lurking behind Uncle Fester

12-31-2007, 10:46 AM	#12
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Well? Is this happening? Or do we still need more people? I'm bringing it back to the top and maybe it'll catch some new person's eye. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

12-31-2007, 10:49 AM	#13
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Thank you Folwren for the reminder. Why don't we start now. Opening question: How should the film open? What would be the first scene you want in a film of THE HOBBIT?

12-31-2007, 12:16 PM	#14
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	I was about to say the hobbit hole door...but what if the opening was the dwarven city under and around the Lonely Mountain. Or perhaps of Thorin with his friends on an outing away from the mountain. And then the dragon is seen coming. Panic and disorder errupts. Smaug wrecks the place and decends on the mountain in fire and smoke. One sees a great deal of death and destruction...Thorin and his companions creep up and see what has happened and then flee the place. There's a rough sketch of something that could be very interesting. Anyway, from there, it cuts to the scene at Bag-end with Bilbo Baggins smoking in front of his door. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

12-31-2007, 01:27 PM	#15
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Folwren... my mind has been working along the same line as yours in this regard. The only thing I wonder about is the similarity between the opening of FOTR in 2001 and the next movie in three years. Consider if they did this as the opening: - we get a historical prologue telling us some of the history of the Dwarves in Middle-earth. We could see how Sauron created the rings and gave them to the Dwarves with Durin III getting the first. We are told that while this failed to control the Dwarves the same way it did the kings of Men, it did inflame them for treasure and riches. We see some of their great cities and wealth and then part of the War of Dwarves and Orcs. We see the climactic moment with Azog and his eventual death. We see the Dwarves bringing prosperity to Dale and the Mountain and then the arrival of Smaug and how he emptied the Mountain of Dwarves. Maybe the last thing we see is Thror and Thrain escaping with their lives and a reference to the secret door. Then from that we go into the Shire of Bilbo and the arrival of Gandalf. Would this be too similar in format to what we saw earlier in FOTR? Would that matter? Are we seeing too much history too soon? Should some of that be held for later when Gandalf and Thorin can explain it with flashbacks?

12-31-2007, 01:35 PM	#16
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Interesting thoughts. But I think...I think it would be too much history for the beginning of The Hobbit. If they intend to do just the story of the Hobbit and not the story of kicking the Necromancer (sp) out of Mirkwood, all that history should not be included. However, if they do have the White Councel and kicking Sauron out of Tol Brandir, then they may want some history on it.... But I was thinking that some of the history should be saved for Thorin and Gandalf to tell Bilbo, as you just said. That's why I suggested stopping with Thorin and his friends running off, so that later, Thorin can tell about meeting his father and grandfather, and Gandalf can tell about the map, the key, and possibly the ring. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

12-31-2007, 01:50 PM	#17
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	So, the film should open in the Shire with Bilbo and let all the history come later in tales from Gandalf and Thorin? How do others feel about that?

12-31-2007, 02:56 PM	#18
Quempel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In a flower Posts: 97	I think its a good tie into the rest of the movies. And having the prolouge like the FOTR would be good too. Have Gandalf in his wagon slowly going through the shire as Bilbo is fussing around the house. __________________ Lurking behind Uncle Fester

12-31-2007, 05:28 PM	#19
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	I think that it should open with Bilbo smoking at his door step and have Gandalf come up. Once the dwarves enter, they start talking about their situation along with the history of their perdicurment. All being flashbacks of Thorin. __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

12-31-2007, 07:37 PM	#22
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	Well, I'd say the first scene ought to be Bilbo being visited by Gandalf. A flashback at the beginning would really take away from the Dwarves' telling their tale, and it would ruin much of the surprise and mystery that the Unexpected Party would provide. The part in which the Dwarves recount the coming of Smaug is the perfect place to put a flashback. In the flashback, though, Smaug would best be done as a silhouette, or flames coming from off camera. Seeing the Dragon later on from Bilbo's eyes, only then seeing a full glimpse of Smaug, would be more in line with the book, as the reader is supposed to be seeing the adventure from Bilbo's perspective. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

12-31-2007, 09:01 PM	#23
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Smaug's attack on the dwarves would be following a proven method of making an opening. It takes the viewer along with action and the faces introduced there will then be recognized as the dwarves reach Bag End. All nice and shiny. And yes, after the titles it should be Bilbo in front of his door puffing his pipe and Gandalf coming to meet him... Or maybe making the first scene coincide with the entrance of the dwarves? So Bilbo sitting there smoking and then the first dwarf to come forwards... That's how the film people cut things short: do not make two separate introductions (two times different beings come to visit Bilbo) but put all the entrances to one and a same lot. But why don't we start with Gollum? Let's have a nice teaser-spot in the beginning where Gollum does some mischief to the goblins and escapes with the help of the Ring? After that we get the titles and then we'll have Bilbo smoking and receiving his unexpected guests... And as the dwarves eat and sing they also tell their story (singing it actually - and the viewers are given the images while they sing - some cuts in the middle of the song to the dwarves singing in the cozyness of Bilbo's Bag End!). Not bad either? __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

12-31-2007, 09:34 PM	#24
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Oh! But I think Gollum should be something that is left as a surprise! Besides, showing Gollum at the beginning of the movie will be confusing...he doesn't have that pivotal part in this story....it'd be pointless. If there is any introduction, any prologue, it should have to do with the dwarves and/or the dragon - not with Gollum. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-01-2008, 10:11 AM	#25
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Starting the film like the book is probably not a favorable thing. The Unexpected Party is maybe the lightest part of the book, even when a lot of childishness is removed. A more dark prologue could win us the favor of the "ignorant part of the audience", so that we could then get away with making the Party more faithful to the book without disappointing some from the beginning on. I was going to suggest a similar thing as Nogrod just suggested: One very important scene is how Gollum loses the ring and I can't think of a way to insert it before the Riddles in the Dark part. It also cannot be omitted because that would leave a plot hole. Why not make it the opening scene then? It would be a dark beginning to see Gollum lose the ring while killing an Orc child, that's true, but it would be followed and balanced by the lighter Unexpected Party. Another benefit is that it would connect Hobbit and LotR with maybe the most recognisable character and the most recognisable item of both books. The audience is going to expect Gollum anyway, so leaving him as a surprise isn't going to work. One thing that I think should not be done is show Smaug in a prologue. That would be a too much of a spoiler. The dragon needs to remain a mystery that is only named and not shown until Bilbo finally meets him. The bit of dwarven history is very interesting and should definitely be included, but as others have already said, I don't see the necessity to do that in a prologue. We can find some quiet place later where Thorin or Balin can give Bilbo a small history lecture.

01-01-2008, 12:34 PM	#26
Nazgûl-king Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 104	I like the idea of starting with Gollum losing the ring, maybe they could do something like; start with Gollum rowing in his boat, then he sneaks up on land behind a goblin and starts choking it, and as he is choking it the ring escapes him, and we see the ring bouncing from the rocks and then landing on the ground. Then the scene could end with a shot Dol Goldur in the distance, and then we see the opening title and move on to The Shire with Bilbo in front of his door.

01-01-2008, 02:27 PM	#27
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Gollum appears once! How can you open a movie with someone that appears once? It just doesn't make sense! __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead. Last edited by TheGreatElvenWarrior; 01-17-2008 at 09:52 PM.

01-01-2008, 02:59 PM	#28
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	The Dwarves need their backstory to be explained so that the entire quest of the Dwarves makes some sense. Gollum needs to be right where he is in the story - no more , no less. Open in the Shire with Bilbo, go to Gandalf, then the arrival of Thorin and company, and let them reveal the history to Bilbo and the audience.

01-01-2008, 04:02 PM	#30
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	No extra scene in which the Dwarves explain what's going on really needs to be included in my opinion. There's already one written in the book; filming that (and possibly including some flashback scenes to go along with Thorin's narration) should suffice. The story really ought to begin where Tolkien wanted it to. A bigger problem, though, involves Bilbo's interaction with Gollum. The flashback in LOTR already contradicts what should happen, as Gollum realizes the Ring is gone at the same time that Bilbo finds it, not like in the book where he doesn't know it's gone until after he's done with the riddles. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

01-01-2008, 05:27 PM	#31
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Mene... are you saying we should not see the Dwarves back history at all or that we should NOT open with that?

01-01-2008, 10:28 PM	#33
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	I'm saying that Tolkien already had a scene in which the Dwarves revealed their backstory, and that it should be revealed during that scene. Oh, and during the prologue, when Bilbo first picks up the Ring, you can hear Gollum shouting "Lost! M-my precious is lost!" at which Bilbo immediately gets up and puts the Ring away nervously. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

01-08-2008, 03:45 PM	#34
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Shall we discuss the next scene? Gandalf walking up to the door, or what? StW? __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-08-2008, 05:54 PM	#35
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Folwren ... I am at a loss with just how to proceed. Asking for advice from you and anyone so inclined. Do we need to reach any kind of agreement or is the sole point discussion. ----------------------------------- and what about the idea of Gandalf first approaching the door and putting the sign upon it .... then going to Bilbo in the next scene.

01-09-2008, 08:59 AM	#36
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	I don't think we need to expect to come to any sort of agreement about the prologue. We will probably need to agree somewhat on the following scenes, because depending on how one scene ends is will dictate how another scene begins...sometimes. And as for the meeting of Gandalf and Bilbo, I think we need to have the whole "What do you mean, good morning?" discussion. The hobbit would scarcely be complete, much less begun, without that. So, I believe what you should say now is, "What comes after the prologue and before the first dwarf arrives?" And if that is quickly decided, we can go on... __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-09-2008, 09:15 AM	#37
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	"What comes after the prologue and before the first dwarf arrives?" Let us discuss.

01-09-2008, 09:27 AM	#38
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Excellent. I'll be here much later in the afternoon to discuss my thoughts. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-10-2008, 04:43 PM	#39
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Lets consider the first Shire scenes with Gandalf and Bilbo. In the book there are two different scenes. First, Gandalf shows up and we have the wonderful exchange between the two of them with "good mornings" and Bilbo remembering who Gandalf is. Gandalf departs leaving the message scrawled upon the door of Bag-end. Then Gandalf returns as promised and the Dwarves show up in dribs and drabs until the place is filled up. Both are great scenes. Question: In the film, should these be two individual scenes divided by a nights intervention, or should they be placed into one scene without the passage of time? We could hear Gandalf explaining about the message on the door rather than seeing him doing it. This would compact things and get rid of two rather similar looking scenes - at least until the Dwarves arrival.