Quenya form of "Morgoth"

[cesar.ewok]

I was wondering what the Quenya form of the name "Morgoth" was, since Melkor ("The Mighty-rising") has a different meaning (Morgoth = "Black Foe"). I took a look at Morgoth's Ring and found out:

"At the first three occurrences 'Morgoth' > 'Melkor', and at the end of the paragraph, after 'the violence of Morgoth', was added: 'for such was his name from that date forth among the Gnomes'; thereafter 'Morgoth' was retained. At the foot of the page my father noted: 'In more ancient form Moringotto'."
Morgoth's Ring, Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, The First Phase, Chapter 7 - Of the Flight of the Noldor

"[footnote to the text] By that name only was he known to the Eldar ever after. (In ancient form used by Fëanor it was Moriñgotho.) [Cf. the note added in LQ to QS §60 (p. 194), where the ancient form is Moringotto.]"
Morgoth's Ring, Part Three - The Later Quenta Silmarillion, The Second Phase, Of the Rape of the Silmarils

It doesn't really say if "Moringotto" is the Quenya form of the name - it is only said that it was a more ancient form (?). But apparently it is Quenya. Is it? I didn't also get this "Moriñgotho". What is it?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Pick one The Eldarin languages remained remarkably fluid throughout Tolkien's life- he was constantly changing his mind. A lot of the problem is that in the 1951 revisions to the Quenta, Sindarin didn't yet exist. Thus there was no problem with Feanor giving Melkor a "Noldorin" epithet- although T still reckoned he should distinguish between Kornoldorin and the later Exilic form. By '58 the linguistic history had shifted, so that there was no way Feanor could have used (Sindarin) Morgoth. At any rate, T. changed his mind and changed the name to suit his own tastes or his current phonological theories. I suppose by some peoples' lights the later form is more 'correct.' Or one could, very artificially, decide that one represented ancient Tunalambe and the other Exilic Quenya.

[Galin]

The editors of Vinyar Tengwar 34 look at the possibility of a base GOTH- 'dread' being strengthened to *ñgoth and providing *-ñgotho 'dread one, foe' and that: 'ngotto in Moringotto appears to be this same element *ñgoth- with gemination of -th- to -tt-.'

In any case in the revised context I would say we are looking at archaic Quenya in Moriñgotho (which language contained -th- while later Quenya did not).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In any case in the revised context I would say we are looking at archaic Quenya in Moriñgotho (which language contained -th- while later Quenya did not).

Except that IIRC the disappearance of th- hadn't yet arisen in 1958 (and certainly not in 1951).

According to the latest dispensation, of course, Feanor was just being typically bullheaded in keeping to th-!

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Except that IIRC the disappearance of th- hadn't yet arisen in 1958 (and certainly not in 1951).

The change -th- to s in Quenya had already been generally referred to in first editions of Return of the King.

TH represents the voiceless th of English in thin, cloth. This had become in Quenya spoken s, though still written with a different letter;...' Appendix E

Noting also the mention of tengwa 9 from Vinyar Tengwar 34: 'The phrase 'ancient form' would seem to indicate that Moriñgotho and Moringotto are archaic Quenya names. Moriñgotho for example retains archaic th, which became s in Exilic Quenya; thus thúle > súle 'spirit' as the name of tengwa 9.'. The same entry goes on to say, however, that it is possible that the names are Old Noldorin.

Anyway, while a different kind of consideration, I boiled my approach down to trying to answer: how can we ultimately think of the name Moriñgotho? this is arguably of interest to the person asking, or so I assume at least, and possibly of prime interest even (though external details need not be overlooked, I agree, but you had already touched upon some).

In this light while the name might not seem like Quenya, in a 'revised context', that is, as ultimately Feanor can not be speaking any version of JRRT's earlier Noldorin in any case, it can yet be thought of as archaic Quenya.