Balrog Tatics

[WarBringer]

How do u actually beat a balrog? do u need to be magical or a high elf? Please Respond

[Legolas]

Sounds like a good enough presumption, since only Ecthelion, Glorfindel, and Gandalf managed it.

Basically, you'd just have to be awesome. Balrogs were originally Maiar, of the same kind as Gandalf, Sauron, Saruman, Osse, Radagast, etc. Subsequently, they are immortal spirits that have the potency to exist outside of Arda, and as such, a great spirit would be required to defeat them.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[WarBringer]

All good points, Legolas. Also, can any weapon made actually harm a balrog? I would guess not, as gandalf used magic and glorfindel probably did the same. The balrog is made of fire, and if its extinguished, a smoldering walking pile of mush, correct?

[Mhoram]

Long fall.

[Orald]

I have to agree with Mhoram on this one [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

Wings as their heel of Achilles?

[Arwen Imladris]

Even better: shove them off a big cliff and into the sea! Doublely dead! Hmmm.... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] No, I am not on crack, really.... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lathspell]

Also, can any weapon made actually harm a balrog?

Remember Gandalf when the Balrog comes, when he regains his wits. I quote.

'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!'

I think this explains what Legalos has said about a great spirit. Even Aragorn, who is of the line of Elros Tar-Minyatur, would be outmatched by the Balrog. It was the match of Gandalf. You need to be strong of mind to withstand a Balrog. Gimli and Legolas were already terrified of seeing it.
I don't think you need to be High-Elf or any other race, as long as you have a strong mind and body and are powerful.

I do not know if weapons can harm a Balrog. I remember Gandalf saying something like: 'Swords are of no use here!'... but I do not know if the Balrog was already there when he said this. Also, when Gandalf was at the door with the Balrog (the door that broke assunder because of all the magic it had to deal with) he knew of nothing else to do but putting a locking- or shuttingspell at the door.
At the bridge Gandalf does use his sword, but he seems only to use it in defence or only to show that he is not at all defenceless against the sword and whip of the Balrog.
Maybe the story of Feänor can answer this question. I believe that when he was killed by Gothmog, he threw down a Balrog (one or two) himself. Does the Silmarillion say that he used weapons there?

I'll look that up and I'll add that tomorrer. Maybe that will answer your last question.

greetings,
lathspell

[Galorme]

Drown them, drop them from great hight. Its almost at thought when they were building their bodies they thought "make it strong against Swords, Magic, Spells, Streght, Darts" they got so cought up they forgot to put in some sort of shock-absorber or a re-breather. So i would say there weakness were the more obvious things. A Bold Hypothesis: if you want to kill a balrog, do something really simple. Like tickle it. Seriously if you were making a super-body, would you think to put an anti-tickler in?

[Cúdae]

Oh interesting! I'm not an expert on Balrogs, so have pity on my faults in Balrog-knowledge.
Anyway, I have to agree with the idea that strength of mind is the main thing that will end the life of a Balrog. I will point out something for the people that virtually have degrees in Balrog-ology. In the Silmarillion, the Balrogs that were destroyed were destroyed by characters who did not seem to have had key or main roles before that time. But, when we get to the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf destoys the Balrog. Gandalf had an obviously major role in the story. Ecthelion and Glorfindel did not.

[Knight of Gondor]

It would definitely take more than a mortal man to defeat a Balrog. They were fiery demons from Morgoth's time, and they could only be defeated by something that could match them in strength and power.

I don't know if weapons can harm them...it'd have to be a powerful weapon...probably more of a whollop than Glamdring packed.

[Mhoram]

Okay, there are a few things being said in this thread that need some attention.

1. The suggestion that if a Balrog's fire is 'extinguished' by water, he will die:

'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'

'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. '

-Gandalf's account of his battle with Durin's Bane

That seems to put the matter to rest. Not only did the Balrog survive his fire being extinguished, he doesn't seem to have lost any power and he later relit his fire.

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2. Gandalf never actually said 'Swords are of no use here!' that was only in the movie. He only said 'This is a foe beyond any of you.' There is simply not enough information to decide if traditional weapons could harm a Balrog. It might seem unlikely, but then again _if_ a long fall is indeed enough to kill a Balrog, who knows.

-----------------

3. It would definitely take more than a mortal man to defeat a Balrog. They were fiery demons from Morgoth's time, and they could only be defeated by something that could match them in strength and power.

Unless you have text to back this up, please don't state it as a fact, it's only speculation.

-------------------

4. Will a long fall kill a Balrog:

"I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." -Gandalf

"Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
-The Silmarilion

While this seems like good evidence to say yes, a long fall will kill a Balrog, it is still a matter of contention. It simply seems too easy.

[Galorme]

As for them not being killed by water:

Those two [Ecthelion and Gothmog] dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane.

Ecthelion knew that the water would kill the Balrog because he wrapped his arms and legs around him and dragged him down with his heavy armor. This could have been only because it would drown him, not “quench his fire”. The Balrog could have needed to breathe (as I say he forgot to put in an aqualung).

As for a fall seeming too easy- So what? The Balrogs turned from the bliss of the Valar to the might of Melkor. That says something about how smart they are, hence forgetting that a big fall will destroy almost anything.

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Mhoram]

Where's that quote from? With HoMe, UT, and the Sil, I can't remember where what is, esp. with the same story existing multiple times in multiple books.

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[Galorme]

Actually the story exists in only one (complete) form. It is the Fall of Gondolin, and the only one at that. (I hope there isn't another one that I haven't heard about I will look rather stupid).

[Mhoram]

In the Silmarilion? all I found about that fight was:

...of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the King, where each slew the other...

So where does your quote come from?

[Galorme]

Sorry yeah I was a tad ambiguous. I am not so sure how the Story in the Sil was pieced together, how much of it was written by CT and JRRT. Anyway the quote is from BoLT II, which, as far as I know, contains the only full story of the Fall of Gondolin.

[Mhoram]

Okay, i've got it now. Yeah, The Fall of Gondolin is one of the most hotly debated areas of the mythos, mostly because there are many conflicting accounts. The whole Gondolin story goes way way way back in Tolkien's writings, as the story expanded lots of things changed, esp. the Balrogs. BoLT 2 talks a bit about all that, as does the Canon forum here. This was a good topic but it's run into the same problem Balrog topics always run into, the huge conflicts regarding their nature, numbers, powers, and etc. This is probally the one thing that Tolkien left the least ironed out when he died. That being the case, not being able to reach any reasonable answers on the subject, i'm gonna step out of this thread. Carry on as you like, it's great soil for speculation.

[ November 23, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[Galorme]

Aww don’t leave, there is nothing wrong with speculation. Say what you think, even how it would be if you wrote it. A lot of the stuff I say isn't Cannon, just stuff I think would be cool. We are not being judged by anyone but ourselves, we have no aim but to express our ideas and listen to the ideas of others, and then talk about them. The idea of stepping out of a debate because you are no longer in Definite, Cannon territory is defeatist and, well, dull. If you were to re-write the Fall how would you have Gothmog defeated?

[doug*platypus]

Actually, I believe the official line is that Ecthelion slew him with his helmet spike. Sorry for not being able to provide a quote.

One of the most striking passages in LOTR for me, is where Frodo sees Glorfindel as he is on "the other side" - he sees Glorfindel on the spiritual level, where he is probably even more powerful than he is on a physical level.

No man ever killed a Balrog. Elves exist on the physical and spiritual planes at the same time. Gandalf also is in a peculiar position. As an Istari, he is incarnate in the form of a man, but is able to tap into his innate spiritual power, chiefly through the use of his staff, as a wizard. It seems to me that to defeat a Balrog, you need to be strong in body and mind, and also in spirit. Possibly you have to have a good soul as well, to fight the evil spirit of the Balrog with. It seems to be a question of faith or purity as much as swordsmanship.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Actually, I believe the official line is that Ecthelion slew him with his helmet spike. Sorry for not being able to provide a quote.

Didn't he stab with his helmet, then drag him down the fountain? Besdies, the Balrogs of BoLT were differnet and far less powerful then the 'latter' Balrogs, of whom 7 or less were said to exist...

[the witch king]

Men never realy had much of a chance to fight a Balrog i mean when the race of Men reched its most powerful in the 2nd age there were no Balrogs around.

Im shure a guy like Turin Turambar could take one out, i mean he dose slay Morgoth in the 'last battle'

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Turin's slaying of Morgoth in the 'second prophecy of Mandos' was discarded by Tolkien.

If any man could defeat a Balrog then it would be Hurin Thalion.

[the witch king]

well he's a good option to, still Glaurung!

[Alatáriël Lossëhelin]

'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'
'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. '

-Gandalf's account of his battle with Durin's Bane

There's a part missing between the 2nd & 3rd paragraphs. Sorry this isn't an exact quote as I don't have my text with me, but Gandalf says something to the effect that "ever he clutched me and ever I hewed him" and I followed him from the bottommost cavern to the topmost tower by way of the Endless Stair by holding to the Balrog's heel. The "ever I hewed him" implies to me that Gandalf is using Glamdring to smite the Balrog. So it appears that at least one sword is effective on Balrogs. I'm sure that the power of his ring is also being used, although Tolkein does not specifically state this.

[Meoshi]

An interesting thing here: all three of the Balrogs slain by heroes were killed by weapons of Gondolin. Did the Elves of Gondolin equip their weapons with anti-Balrog spells? Anti-Maiar spells? I mean, their swords already came equipped with orc detectors, so they knew some things about weapons modification.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Gothmog was impaled by Ectehlions helmet and dragged down to the fountain. I don't think the Balrog that Glorfindel slew was slain by a weapon, but by falling from a great height ,and the same goes for the Balrog of Khazad-dum.

In the Fall of Gondloin, dozens of Balrogs were slain, 5 by Tuor and 3 by Ectehlion,and a lot by Rog's men as the Balrogs were a lot weaker then, comapred to the seven or so that were said to exist later on, so any Balrog slayings their could be misleading.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

How does one kill a Balrog, I mean, in Gandalf's case we realize that he fought it 'tooth and nail', with every thing he had physically (and probably spiritually too), hacked at it, and weakened it, and though it sprang anew upon the tower of Durin, it had to be weakened to the point at least, where if it were winged (I'll try to avoid that argument by saying 'if'), it was too weak to fly, and fell crash bang a few hundred feet. As for the depiction of Ecthelion stabbing Gothmog with his pith-spike, and dragging him into the water of the fountain, it's possible. The Balrog could have turned to slime (I'd imagine something like 'Morpha' from the Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time), and still attacked, who's to say Ecthelion didn't continue to hack away with whatever swords (or his helm). Of course, it can't possibly be an entirely accurate account of Ecthelion dragging him down, if the Balrog was twenty or more feet tall, but we won't rule it out-it's the only idea in existence. As for Glorfindel, the Balrog sprang upon the group, and he must have been riding foremost, because he managed to get to the thing before it wiped out everyone on the narrow pass, and whether he tripped the thing, or struggled to fight it, or used its whip like fiber wire, choked it, and it fell off the cliff, we'll never know, but we know that he didn't fall, they (Tuor and the folks) buried him under a small pile of rocks on that very pass. If Gandalf's Balrog (which was still full strength), had enough time to cast its lash up and pull him off the bridge, what was stopping Glorfindel's from doing the same, unless the Golden-Haired warrior kicked the crap out of it first (a difficult task on that narrow way).

On the note of the weapons used. They were all from Gondolin, Glamdring later slew Durin's Bane, but what of Orcrist? Glamdring survived a Balrog hack-fest (without melting or Nazgul-style dissolving), so did Orcrist as well? Was it the blade of Ecthelion, knocked away by Gothmog so that Ecthelion had to use the only thing left-his hat-to kill the damn thing? Maybe, but even so we know that Ecthelion had a Gondolin-made blade, most likely, and Glorfindel probably did too (and no doubt Glorfindel fought a skirmish on the mountainside).

So the great falls worked, but with the evidence comparing Gandalf to Glorfindel, they needed to be weakened to some degree. Whether or not they could have 'flown' away from it, could severely have influenced the need to hack a few fiery chunks out of them first, and to exhaust them to the point of not flying (or just landing on their feet or something amazing like that). Stabbing them alone wouldn't work, but stabbing and drowning did. Durin's Bane became a creature of slime, but slime usually floats on the surface and has some access to the air, while holding a Balrog underwater would likely drown it. Are there other ways to smite a Balrog? Not that I know of. Poison wouldn't work on a thing made of fire within. Mere weapons, nope. One of great enough spirit may have been able to wrestle it mentally (or spiritually, etc...) and defeat it, from within, sort of.

[obloquy]

I was typing up a response to you, Keeper, but my computer froze. Now my post will be briefer.

Although your post seems well thought out, it is full of unsupported statements and inaccuracies. I'll just bust them all out here.

First, Glorfindel did fall during his duel with the Balrog.

Why do you say Glamdring slew Durin's Bane? I don't remember reading that.

Where do you get the idea of blades melting or dissolving when fighting a Balrog?

Why is it that, since Glamdring was used in battling a Balrog, Orcrist must have been as well?

How do we know that Ecthelion had a Gondolin-made blade?

Where is your evidence that the Balrogs must be weakened to be killed by a long fall?

Why would stabbing alone not work?

Where does it say that Gothmog drowned?

Why do you assume that Gothmog's chest wound was not mortal?

The argument has been made also that Gandalf had slain Durin's Bane first, and then it fell, rather than the fall causing its defeat.

Why must we assume that Balrogs are special and that there are very few ways to 'smite' them, as you say?

Why would poison be ineffective, exactly? If they could be drowned, as you claim, why would they be invulnerable to poison?

Why would 'mere weapons' be ineffective, exactly?

At one point in your post, you 'deduce' something by comparing two completely different duels. You say, 'If Gandalf's Balrog had enough time to pull him off the bridge, why couldn't Glorfindel's?' This is like saying, If Merry could stab the Witch-King in the leg on the Pelennor, why couldn't Pippin have done the same at Weathertop? Two different battles, two different sets of circumstances.

[Meoshi]

Perhaps the idea is not that weapons are no good against a Balrog, but that they're so nasty that only a great hero can even get close enough to try...

[Voralphion]

Of course, it can't possibly be an entirely accurate account of Ecthelion dragging him down, if the Balrog was twenty or more feet tall

Who's to say that the balrog was twenty or more feet tall. Where does it say anything about the size of a balrog. I know in the movie it is shown as a giant demon shaped creature, but in LOTR it says the balrog was possibly man shape. I don't believe that balrogs were giant but they were perhaps a little taller than a man or elf about 7 or 8 feet tall.

[thesandman762]

well, i have one HUGE note to mention. Who brought out the idea that Balrogs are invincible to almost everything.
I think Balrog's are merely creatures, but most likely superior than most races(strenghtwise). That is like comparing a monkey to a lion. The monley's weapon's are extremely weak compared to a lion's. "Swards are of no use here!", could be 1) stating that the fellowship had not the physical power to overtake a Balrog and 2) could be discouraging the fellowship to figth, knowing they would perish.

All in all, the Balrog could probably be killed by anything that a human could, but they are so strong that they seem near invinceable.