The Route of the Ring

[Mithadan]

In some ways, the route of the Ring through the Misty Mountains via Moria seems almost pre-ordained. It seems that the Ring was "meant" to pass through Moria, and, perhaps, that Gandalf was "meant" to perish. There are, in fact, some tantalizing discussions in Letters suggesting that for Gandalf to complete his task he had to become "super-charged" (become Gandalf the White) and there was only one way to do that...

In a wonderful old thread here, The Bridge at Khazad Dum, there is some discussion about routes over the Misty Mountains at least in the context of trade. The concensus at that time was that there was the High Pass that Bilbo traversed, the Redhorn Pass/Moria route and the Gap of Rohan. This discsussion is supported by the conversation held by the Fellowship following the Redhorn debacle in which the southern route through Gondor and the Gap or Rohan are discussed as the only viable alternatives to entering Moria or turning back to Rivendell.

That the Redhorn Pass might be blocked in the winter by snow was not inconceivable. The hazards of attempting to pass Isenguard by using the Gap of Rohan were well known before the Ring set out. The length of the southern route is emphasized by Boromir's comments at the Council of Elrond. Short of waiting for Spring, which was also not a viable option, to travel south on the west side of the mountains with the intent to cross them and go east presented at least a risk that the Moria passage would be necessary. Indeed, Aragorn mentions that Gandalf had discussed this route with him.

Did Gandalf want to pass through Moria? If so, why? Why not take another route? Gandalf mentions his belief that following the Battle of Five Armies that the Misty Mountains might be relatively clear of Orcs. Why not use the High Pass? Is the long jouney through Wilderland too dangerous? And there was another way...

After the Council of Elrond, the Fellowship waits for scouts to return and report on the Nine and for other signs of the Enemy and "In no region had the messengers discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servants of the Enemy." All was clear on both sides of the mountains. Perhaps the High Pass could have been risked. But what of the "pass at the source of the Gladden River" which apparently crosses the mountains and descends on the east through Gladden Fields? The Gladden Pass is briefly mentioned in The Ring Goes South in the same paragraph addressing the return of the scouts. This pass is not even mentioned as a possible route for the Ring though it was scouted and found to be clear of Sauron's servants. More importantly, having failed to traverse the Redhorn Pass, should not the Gladden Pass have even been considered as an alternative to the dark hazards of Moria? Fonstad's Atlas places the Gladden's source at less than 100 miles north of Redhorn Pass, at least in a straight line. Yes, this means some delay, but better late than dead.

[radagastly]

It is curious that the pass of the Gladden Fields was not even mentioned in the discussion of alternate routes once the Redhorn had defeated them. I don't own Fonstad's Atlas, however the fold-out map from my edition of Fellowship shows a rocky spur or outcropping westward from the Misty Mountains opposite the Gladden Fields. In "The Ring Goes South," I found this brief description:

Yet steadily the mountains were drawing nearer. South of Rivendell they rose ever higher, and bent westwards; and about the feet of the main range there was tumbled an ever wider land of bleak hills, and deep valleys filled with turbulent waters. Paths were few and winding, and led them often only to the edge of some sheer fall, or down into treacherous swamps.

This seems to correspond in the text to the western side of the source of the Gladden River. It occurs just prior to their passage through Hollin. Perhaps it was considered too difficult a passage for the hobbits to manage. And of course in Hollin they observed the crebain from Fangorn and Dunland, "Hollin is no longer wholesome for us; it is being watched." said Aragorn. They may have feared passing back through that country to reach the Gladden pass. Still it's curious that it wasn't at least mentioned.

As for using the High Pass, they may have feared it being snowed under that far north, as well as leaving them exposed between the mountains and Dol Guldur for at least a hundred and fifty miles as they journeyed south to Lorien. The east side of the mountains had not been explored by Elronds scouts before the Ring set out from Rivendell. There was no way to know whether it would be a safe journey.

Did Gandalf want to pass through Moria? If so, why?

From "A Journey in the Dark":

"There is a way that we may attempt," said Gandalf. " I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Company before. Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried."

Clearly it was Gandalf's idea from the start, and the strategy is sound. Disappear underground for a while, and emerge just miles from the safety of Lorien.

But of course, there is a bigger "why?" Did Gandalf sense or guess what awaited him in Moria? Clearly, Aragorn did:

It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you; if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!"

"Over the bridge!" cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. "Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!"

Whether Gandalf knew his fate or not at this point is difficult to say. Did he suspect it before entering Moria? At the West-gate he tells Boromir:

"And," he added, with a glint in his eyes under their bristling brows, "you may ask what is the use of my deeds when they are proved useless."

Unfortunately, Gandalf is such a secretive individual that it's difficult to find any clues as to what he knew or suspected or mused about. Elrond had this to say to Frodo, a week before they left Rivendell:

I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of the Greyflood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.

and a paragraph later:

"With you and your faithful servant, Gandalf will go; for this shall be his great task, and maybe the end of his labours."

I don't think Elrond was speaking prophetically here, or at least that he believed he was. It seems more foreshadowing of some unseen doom on the part of the author than anything else.

I need to go study The Two Towers. Maybe Gandalf the White can offer some insight into Gandalf the Grey's motives.

[The Might]

I also wonder why there is no mention of this option, especially since we're told the pass was safe due to Grimbeorn the Old and his men. So they would have anyway received help from Grimbeorn, who would perhaps know of Gandalf or Hobbits from the stories of his father. From there it's not necessary to cross the Anduin, but simply head south towards Lorien (I anyway think they would have done this intead of crossing, since the eastern shore was guarded).
The only argument against it is that it might take too long, but in fact I think it would have been a better decision.

[Mithadan]

I think the High Pass was rejected for a few reasons. First, to have taken that Pass would have placed the Fellowship far to the north in Wilderland. We know very little about what the lands are like between the Misty Mountains and Anduin. These lands may have been difficult to traverse. This makes a southern passage more desirable. Second, it is the obvious route to pass into the eastern lands and, as a result, should have been avoided. Third, the Fellowship's great need was secrecy. Seeking out the help of the Beornings would created an additional group of people who knew that they had passed through even if their errand was not revealed.

The Gladden Pass may have been difficult and could lead into the swampy lands at Gladden Fields. Yet, the description of the scouting party's route is east through the Gladden Pass, south through Wilderland, back west through the Redhorn Pass and then north back to Rivendell. This circuitous route took only a bit over a month for the scouts. It can't have been that difficult a passage and would have placed the Fellowship far closer to Lorien than the High Pass would.

In a sense this returns us to the issue of did Gandalf believe Moria was the best route? Of course, our speculation of the condition of the Gladden Pass and the difficulties presented in moving south between the mountains and the river is... speculation. But it seems clear that Moria was not the only option, in the way that it was presented during the debate between Gandalf and Aragorn.

[Lalwendë]

I've been wondering for a while why Gandalf was unable to solve that simple riddle in order to enter Moria. This could be the answer. I thought it may be that either Gandalf was simply afraid of what he suspected lurked within or that Gandalf was putting off the inevitable. I tend towards the latter - as Gandalf's return seems to be a reward for displaying extreme bravery in accepting and finally facing his doom.

So the delay in entering Moria, together with a fair bit of procrastination (about routes, to look at the Book of Mazarbul etc) during that journey point towards a reluctant Gandalf to me, towards a wizard who has an inkling of his fate.

If his return was 'reward' then this would also depend upon his not thinking that - or else would it be much of a reward for bravery?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I think the High Pass was rejected for a few reasons. First, to have taken that Pass would have placed the Fellowship far to the north in Wilderland. We know very little about what the lands are like between the Misty Mountains and Anduin. These lands may have been difficult to traverse. This makes a southern passage more desirable. Second, it is the obvious route to pass into the eastern lands and, as a result, should have been avoided. Third, the Fellowship's great need was secrecy. Seeking out the help of the Beornings would created an additional group of people who knew that they had passed through even if their errand was not revealed.

The Gladden Pass may have been difficult and could lead into the swampy lands at Gladden Fields. Yet, the description of the scouting party's route is east through the Gladden Pass, south through Wilderland, back west through the Redhorn Pass and then north back to Rivendell. This circuitous route took only a bit over a month for the scouts. It can't have been that difficult a passage and would have placed the Fellowship far closer to Lorien than the High Pass would.

One certain idea appeared in my mind, do you think that maybe some of these "alternative routes" will be useable if the Fellowship could have obtained the help of Radagast the Brown? That passage reads:

...and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair.

"Radagast was not there" - what if he WAS there? After all, he was willing to help Gandalf and Saruman (when he still thought them both allies) and Gandalf knew that "it would have been useless in any case to try and win over the honest Radagast to treachery", ergo, he would trust him - at least enough to f.ex. lead the Fellowship through the wilderness, where, after all, he was the best guide. Besides all the "Radagast the Fool" things, he was still a Wizard and especially here could be of help, at least, let's say, to bring the Fellowship to Lórien from the Gladden Pass if he was informed to wait for them there or something like that. (Of course, it was probably very dangerous for the Fellowship to tarry in the places too near to Dol Guldur, but still, as it was said before, could be better than Moria).

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

So the delay in entering Moria, together with a fair bit of procrastination (about routes, to look at the Book of Mazarbul etc) during that journey point towards a reluctant Gandalf to me, towards a wizard who has an inkling of his fate.

If his return was 'reward' then this would also depend upon his not thinking that - or else would it be much of a reward for bravery?

So, let me get this straight: you suggest that Gandalf could have known (or, had some vague idea) what's going to happen to him? That he's gonna die? I don't know if this was discussed before, but it would maybe be enough for a stand-alone thread.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So, let me get this straight: you suggest that Gandalf could have known (or, had some vague idea) what's going to happen to him? That he's gonna die? I don't know if this was discussed before, but it would maybe be enough for a stand-alone thread.

I think at most he may have had some kind of foreshadowing that he may meet his fate against an enemy like the Balrog, though he may not have known who or what he faced (he may have thought he may have to face Sauron for example).

What I do think is that Gandalf knew full well what lived in Moria and that he had a good feeling that if he passed that way he would have to face this foe. This is why, in my opinion, he was procrastinating both before and during the journey through the mines.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think at most he may have had some kind of foreshadowing that he may meet his fate against an enemy like the Balrog, though he may not have known who or what he faced (he may have thought he may have to face Sauron for example).

What I do think is that Gandalf knew full well what lived in Moria and that he had a good feeling that if he passed that way he would have to face this foe. This is why, in my opinion, he was procrastinating both before and during the journey through the mines.

I agree with the first paragraph you wrote, but not with the second. Mainly because of the fact that Gandalf seems that he did not know what to expect in Moria, judging by these words:

"A Balrog," muttered Gandalf. "Now I understand." He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. "What an evil fortune! And I am already weary."

To me, it looks like he was saying: "Oh yeah, so this is it!" or maybe even "Oh no, old Bob, why him? He was terrible even back then before Eä!"
And before he says:

Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge.

This implies that both Gandalf and the Balrog were surprised, and it looks like from that very moment Gandalf was fully aware of the fact that "something" that is totally outside his experience is upon them. Though Gandalf even pondered the fact that the creature could have been buried along with Balin's tomb when the room collapsed.

So, my conclusion is that Gandalf knew about some danger, and that he even had a feeling - though not fully conscious - that something terrible awaits him in Moria. But at least until that moment quoted above he was not aware what exactly, and definitely did not think of Balrog (and according to how he acts, I believe he did not think about it at all).

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

What I do think is that Gandalf knew full well what lived in Moria and that he had a good feeling that if he passed that way he would have to face this foe. This is why, in my opinion, he was procrastinating both before and during the journey through the mines.

I agree with Legate. With him were not only hobbits that he loved, future rulers of the kindreds of Men, Elves and Dwarves, and the hoped-for king of Gondor - but also the One Ring that had to be destroyed, not lost or handed over to some other evil power. I see no reason why he would have led them on a collision course with the balrog, as any other route would have been better than this rather suicidal one. Furthermore, if he knew beforehand what was in Moria, he would have most likely did his best to make this knowledge as public as possible - as there was no confidentiality agreement between him and Sauron & co, quite the contrary, according to his mission.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Agree with the preceding- and would add that while Durin's Bane was some sort of subterranean nasty, there was no reason for the Wise to leap to the conclusion it was a Balrog. Moria is a place where "nameless things" gnaw the earth. Tolkien was careful to suggest that there was far more wonder and terror in Middle-earth than he put in his books, and it can't all be neatly pigonhoiled.

[CSteefel]

The Wise certainly knew there was some "problem" in Moria, as did the Dwarves. I don't recall if there were any survivors when Durin VI was slain by a Balrog in 1980 of the 3rd Age, but they refer to threat simply as "Durin's Bane", rather than mentioning a Balrog specifically. And in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, Dain Ironfoot ventured inside the Gates of Moria after slaying Azog, it was said that:

Yet hardy and full of wrath as he was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear.

And then,

But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

Presumably this is the sort of information that led Aragorn to counsel against entering Moria with the Fellowship of the Ring, even specifically referring to the threat to Gandalf:

It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

But it also seems clear enough that nobody knew it was a Balrog, as the quotes in the posts above indicate.

[The Might]

I think this discussion is quite interesting, but not on topic, so maybe we should start a new thread for the Moria problem.
The real question is why was the High Pass so easily eliminated as an option.
Moria clearly was more dangerous and same goes for the Gap of Rohan probably. But was it better then Caradhras or not?
I personally say it was, because of the already mentioned groups and persons that would have certainly helped the Fellowship.

[CSteefel]

Interesting question. I always assumed that the High Pass was much farther north than they wanted to go, especially since they wanted to pass through Lorien (either Caradhras or Moria would get them this). But also, it seems that whatever the searches turned up, the raiding party of Orcs that freed Gollum may have influenced the thinking as well, since it was clear that the Enemy was moving almost at will in this general region. Perhaps a route down on the west side of the river, however, would have given better results...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I believe something was already mentioned before - like that the Company had to pick a route that was not as expected, and High Pass was probably one of the top possibilities. Since there were Mordor-uruks in Moria, I believe Sauron would see to it that even the goblins of Goblin-Gate were aroused and if it was needed, even though Eagles (one very important power that, I believe, was not mentioned) and Beornings were watching that region, one well-planned assault could do the main job and cripple or even eliminate the company. After passing to the other side, there were Wargs who could make quick raids deep into enemy territory. Even though "no warg dared to enter" Beorning lands, again, if it was well planned and with the advantage of wargs' speed the company could be surprised and people taken captive.

I believe Radagast could have played more important part here than it seems on first sight. I was playing with the idea a few posts earlier , but when I think of it, it seems quite important. But now I don't think about how Radagast could have helped the Fellowship if he WAS there, but what would mean if he indeed was NOT at Rhosgobel (and if Rhosgobel was by the southern end of Mirkwood). If there was nothing to watch the Enemy's movements on the eastern shore, he could have prepared a smaller troop of Orcs or other troops from Dol Guldur and cross Anduin on boats in the lands between the Old Forest road and Lórien. And that would be too much of a risk for the Company.

Last but not least, I believe that it was not much pleasant idea to carry the Ring through the Gladden Fields, even though it would be on the western shore this time. Also who knows how the area was passable (seems that it was quite swampy).

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Legate of Amon Lanc:

Last but not least, I believe that it was not much pleasant idea to carry the Ring through the Gladden Fields, even though it would be on the western shore this time. Also who knows how the area was passable (seems that it was quite swampy).

There is one other reason to avoid the Gladden Fields altogether. It was common knowledge where Isildur lost the Ring, and it was known that Gollum found the Ring in that vicinity. They even knew that Sauron knew as much. It's logical to think that the orcs that engineered Gollum's escape from Mirkwood were sent with Sauron's knowledge, in hopes that Gollum would lead him to the Ring eventually. Since Gollum was from that area originally, Sauron was likely paying special attention to that area. Sauron knew that "Shire" was far to the west, but there was still some chance that the Ring remained in the area where it was last known to be. Whether his spies were seen or not, he was no doubt having the area searched or at least watched. This would be a good reason to avoid the Gladden Pass and the High Pass in favor of something further south.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, but of course Sauron knew very well at that time that the Ring is with Frodo and there was no reason to search the Fields anymore. But he may not have called off all of his servants, exactly for the reason mentioned above - so that no one passes through if they choose to. Also, we know that Saruman was searching that area extensively before as well. So maybe some of his "friendly fellows" remained there also.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It appears from "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" that the only way to avoid the treacherous marshlands was to skirt the borders of Mirkwood, not far from Dol Guldur: bad idea.

The principal advantage to the Dimrill Stair was that it debouched almost directly into Lothlorien, and avoided a lengthy march through the narrow lands between Mirkwood and the Mountains. From Gandalf's perspective it made perfect sense to minimize the Company's exposure in enemy-infested territory for as long as possible; and, of course, if you're going to cross mountains in January farther south as a rule is safer. Elrond's scouts had used both northern passes in November/December, true: but they were Elves, and probably no more discommoded by snow and cold than Legolas was.

EDIT: replaced "Rivendell" with "Lorien", which was what I meant.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think it's utter silliness to think that Gandalf actually wanted to go through Moria--he's not so coy that he would carefully manage things like that, he would have stated from the start "let's go that way." His choice of paths was pretty clear from the start: the Redhorn pass and, failing that, Moria as a second-best but not great option.

As to why he rejected to two more northerly routes, the reasons for that have already been stated here: too many goblins, too long close to Mirkwood, too close to Dol Guldur.

But I think there might be another interesting reason why he wanted to try Caradhras...it was the only route that they could have followed and then skipped going into Lothlorien. If they had been able to get through the mountain pass they would have been able to keep Bill (and thus the supplies he carried), come down the stairs (and thus had a much easier road somewhat further to the north and thus not quite directly into the forest) and they would certainly have been in better shape (not having had any to-be-expected encounters with goblins). They might then have held a course north and around Lothlorien, or maybe even snuck by on the western border between the forest and the mountains.

Why do this? Perhaps, just perhaps, Gandalf had some secret inkling of the danger Galadriel posed to the Fellowship. She darn near took the Ring from Frodo and she certainly consternated the rest...maybe Gandalf had it in the back of his head that if they could slip by her realm unnoticed, that might not be a bad thing....

Going through the Gladden Fields almost guarantees that you are going to spend a long time mucking about on the borders of Lothlorien and in the surrounds and thus attract more Elvish attention. Taking the Ring that close to both the Witch King and Galadriel, for that long, might not have been much to his liking....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Interesting, Fordim, as I also thought that Gandalf could have planned to avoid Lothlórien. I don't know where I got that impression, but I had it for as long as I can remember and now that you said it it makes me wonder if there is not a hint somewhere that Gandalf did not want to go there as well? Concerning his reasons, I'd agree with the one you say - though I would say that maybe his reasoning was not as clear; he did not plainly say to himself: "Galadriel could be tempted by the Ring, let's avoid any contact with her", but rather sort of subconsciously said to himself: do not come near Lórien.

If that's true, of course. It is just a speculation. But if it were true, that's another good reason not to take the northern route.

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Fordim Hedgethistle:

I think it's utter silliness to think that Gandalf actually wanted to go through Moria--he's not so coy that he would carefully manage things like that, he would have stated from the start "let's go that way."

But he did say almost exactly that:

"There is a way that we may attempt," said Gandalf. " I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Company before. Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried."

So he conceded the argument to Aragorn's choice.

They might then have held a course north and around Lothlorien, or maybe even snuck by on the western border between the forest and the mountains.

I suspect you're right in possibly wanting to avoid Galadriel, all things considered, but I can't imagine he would pass Lothlorien on it's northern side and then turn south. They would have to cross Anduin and pass within sight of Dol Guldur. If it's visible from Cerin Amroth, it would certainly be visible fifty miles closer. It would also put the river at their back, cutting off any retreat if an attack came from there. If they were trying to avoid Lorien at all, they would likely have followed the edge of the mountains until they reached the northern border of Fangorn. They could then follow Limlight downstream to Anduin and so on to Mordor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Except that, according to Aragorn, Gandalf had no certain plan *beyond Lorien;* moreover, messengers had gone to Celeborn from Elrond and the Fellowship was expected.

[CSteefel]

Yes, I have never seen any evidence that Gandalf had any desire to avoid Lothlorien. As Hickli said, they were expected. And when Gandalf was plucked off the mountain top by Gwahir, he was taken immediately to Lothlorien.

[Meriadoc1961]

I believe there is a statement made by Aragorn to the effect that "Gandalf clearly wished to enter Lorien." Aragorn felt completely safe and secure going to Lothlorien, and if there was a known danger in bringing the ring that close to Galadriel then either Elrond (Aragorn's foster father) or Gandalf (his mentor) or both would have confided this to him, it seems to me.

Gandalf knew that Moria was dangerous and filled with evil, but he did not consider it to be as bad a place as Dol Guldur.

Merry

[William Cloud Hicklin]

He was also I'm sure thinking of the fate of Thrain, who bore a lesser Ring too close to southern Mirkwood.......

[Mithadan]

Well now. I'm pleased this subject garnered a bit of attention. To be honest, I expected no more than a comment or two.

This thread has splintered into multiple issues. Given the nature of this place that is unsurprising. At any rate, I'd like to add a few comments on some of these matters.

I don't believe Gandalf "wanted" to enter Moria. I doubt that anyone other than a Dwarf would have desired to do so at that time. However, he clearly "felt" it was likely that the Fellowship's course would take them through Moria. As some have commented, perhaps he wished to evade detection for a time and take the road less travelled. I would like to suggest that, apart from his wishes and his strategies, perhaps Gandalf "had to" enter Moria. Great forces were astir at that time. All of the plans and courses of the Powers were coming to a head. Either Sauron would prevail, and all would become dark (until perhaps the Valar roused themselves and took a direct interest in Middle Earth), or the end of the "Elder" days was at hand, and the time of Man's dominion had arrived.

I know that Tolkien uses the term "Elder Days" to mean the First Age. I do not intend this usage here. Instead, I use the term to refer to the time that the ancient things and powers yet walked in Middle Earth and were not yet departing or waning to become the stuff of tales and legend. If Frodo suceeded in his quest, all such ancientry would be swept away as Elrond and Galadriel predicted. No longer would the Valar or even Morgoth and Sauron work their powers directly on the Lands of Man. In order for this to occur, one certain obstacle, a power from the forgotten past, had to be dealt with: the Balrog.

So perhaps, in order to fulfill his duties, and to advance the Quest, Gandalf was fated to enter Moria and slay the Balrog. He didn't want to do it. He "had to" do it, whether consciously or not.

As to the viability of routes other than Moria, even Celeborn criticizes Gandalf's choice. "Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

I believe there is a statement made by Aragorn to the effect that "Gandalf clearly wished to enter Lorien."

That does not have to mean that Gandalf really wanted to do that. Aragorn (if he said it) only thought that Gandalf wanted to. And that's not to say that we don't know what Gandalf thought: there could have been an agreement to go to Lórien, but Gandalf went there unwillingly (cf. above). It's just a speculation, though, as it was said earlier.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

He was also I'm sure thinking of the fate of Thrain, who bore a lesser Ring too close to southern Mirkwood.......

One technical note: I wouldn't use the word "lesser" in this case. It was one of the Seven, and the only thing that was "greater" was the One. Thus, you would create two cathegories, one "lesser" (all Rings except the One) and one "greater" (the One). It was the Seven, Three and Nine and the One that were "greater"; the "lesser" were something else (ref.: Shadows of the Past, Gandalf's speech about the Rings).

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I don't believe Gandalf "wanted" to enter Moria. I doubt that anyone other than a Dwarf would have desired to do so at that time. However, he clearly "felt" it was likely that the Fellowship's course would take them through Moria. As some have commented, perhaps he wished to evade detection for a time and take the road less travelled. I would like to suggest that, apart from his wishes and his strategies, perhaps Gandalf "had to" enter Moria.

Interesting thought and possible. But I don't want to speculate about this one, not that it was not interesting, but I'll leave it to someone else. I would like to focus only on the first part. From my point of view, it seems clear that Gandalf preferred the way through Moria above everything else (and now I am speaking only of his own choice, all high-power-leading and similar aspects aside). One similar part was quoted here already a few posts earlier by radagastly, and this, I believe, speaks even more clearly:

Originally Posted by FotR, The Ring Goes South

"Who knows indeed!" said Gandalf. "But there is another way, and not by the pass of Caradhras: the dark and secret way that we have spoken of."

This is a part of a dialogue between Gandalf and Aragorn before the company decides to go through Caradhras. When I read the entire paragraph, I get the feeling - and I'm leaving for you to decide - that Gandalf, in fact, was thinking all the way "The best thing would be to go through Moria!", and he did not advise it only because no one else wanted that (cf. the quote by radagastly). I imagine it almost the same way as he advised the White Council to attack Dol Guldur (and this, interestingly, brings me to similar area of thinking and could go well together with Mithadan's ideas from the last post - because as we know Gandalf, he was not lead only by his own conscious choices in the important moments).

[The Might]

...or maybe they could have flown with the help of the Eagles all the way to Mount Doom?

No, but seriously now, I wouldn't go so far so as to speculate that Gandalf "had to" use that way, especially since it wasn't his decision only in the end, and the outcome could have been different.
I think this would be the topic of another thread.

Actually, if I think about it, Moria was a strange choice. Gandalf definitely felt something was wrong down there, since they had had no news from the Dwarves there, it was clear something had happened, but not what.

The Gap of Rohan was more dangerous, since reaching it meant going further on the road through Dunland and by the time the Fellowship would have reached Rohan, Saruman would have already sent his troops to attack Theoden.

But I just had another idea.
We know that:

[FONT=&quot]Only here [the Fords], south of Isengard, was it possible for large forces, especially those heavily armed or mounted, to cross the river. ~ UT, The Battle of the Fords of Isen[/FONT]

So it was not possible for heavily armed Uruks to cross anywhere else, but what about the Fellowship?
They didn't have heavy armor (ok, maybe Gimli would have had to give up some stuff) so they could try.

Also we are told:

[FONT=&quot]Beyond the Gap the land between Isen and Adorn was nominally part of the realm of Rohan; but though Folcwine had reclaimed it, driving out the Dunlendings that had occupied it, the people that remained were largely of mixed blood, and their loyalty to Edoras was weak: the slaying of their lord, Freca, by King Helm was still remembered. Indeed at this time they were more disposed to side with Saruman, and many of their warriors had joined Saruman's forces. In any case there was no way into their land from the west except for bold swimmers. [/FONT]

Well, Hobbits and Dwarves aren't bold swimmers, but I'm sure that with help from the others they would have made it across eventually.

So why not go from Hollin cross the Glanduin, do into Enedwaith, preferably closer to the coast, cross the Isen (or the Isen and the Adorn, depending on what place would be chosen for the crossing), pass the Druwaith Iaur and finally enter Gondor.

Of course the plan was not really taken into consideration, since the road might seem too long, but wouldn't it have been an option?
Or option 2, after crossing the Isen south of the Fords, head east towards Helm's Deep. Definitely they would have made it in time this way as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I believe actually the reason why it was decided that the Fellowship should not go through the Gap of Isen or southwards at all was that it was dangerous to bring the Ring too close to Orthanc. It has nothing to do with Saruman's attack on Théoden - whenever Saruman would have learned about the Ring coming near, he wouldn't care about any Théodens but do everything to get it. Imagine ten thousand Orcs sweeping the land westward of Isen. And even if not: If Uglúk and his party were able to track the Fellowship and catch two Hobbits hundred miles from Isengard, how much easier would that be near Isengard. Frodo could maybe escape using the Ring, Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn would have been slain alongside Boromir, the Hobbits would have been taken captive. The only one who could possibly resist somewhat longer would be Gandalf, but even his powers are not unlimited (I can imagine he could scare away a lesser troop of Orcs with fire, but a large group of "fighting Uruk-hai", probably forewarned by Saruman - "Kill the old man!" shouted Uglúk - would have in the end defeated him). And who knows, maybe Saruman himself would take part on such a dangerous mission when there was Gandalf involved and it was so close to his home.
And also, if the Fellowship were to go through Dunland, let us not forget that the Dunlanders were on good terms with Saruman (or: he had quite a lot of his people among them), and all these Crebains and stuff...
And concerning passing the Drúwaith Iaur, this path was too long.

All I just said is summed up by Gandalf when Boromir asks exactly the way you did:

Originally Posted by FotR

"(...) let us journey southwards, until we come to the Gap of Rohan, where men are friendly to my people, taking the road that I followed on my way hither. Or we might pass by and cross the Isen into Langstrand and Lebennin, and so come to Gondor from the regions nigh to the sea."
"Things have changed since you came north, Boromir," answered Gandalf. "Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over. But the Ring must not come near Isengard, if that can by any means be prevented. The Gap of Rohan is closed to us while we go with the Bearer."
"As for the longer road: we cannot afford the time. We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless. Yet they would not be safe. The watchful eyes both of Saruman and of the Enemy are on them..."

[Mithadan]

All very true, Legate, but what I posit that Gandalf, intentionally or not, disregarded was a route to the North of Moria, the Gladden River Pass. Clearly, Celeborn believed another route was available. Surely he was aware of the risks presented by passage through the Gap of Rohan. Undoubtedly he did not believe the Fellowship would retrace its steps all the way back to the High Pass. Nor would he expect the Fellowship to hunker down on the West side of the Mountains and wait for a Spring thaw to attempt to cross the Redhorn Gate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's an interesting idea. A common reader, I believe, understands it the way that Celeborn simply thought that the Fellowship should not go through Moria - and which way they were supposed to take is another problem. But since the word needlessly is there, Celeborn's words cannot be reduced only on a negative sentence.

If you read the whole discussion with the Lord and the Lady, it gives (to me) the impression that C&G were expecting the Fellowship to come through Caradhras. There is this moment:

"Tell us now the full tale!" said Celeborn.
Then Aragorn recounted all that had happened upon the pass of Caradhras, and in the days that followed...

Aragorn starts with Caradhras, i.e. he starts with explaining why they could not pass Caradhras. This could mean that Celeborn knew that they were supposed to pass Caradhras, and Aragorn only explains why they did not. He is starting with Caradhras and does not think it necessary to include the reason why they passed Caradhras and not, for example, the High Pass or the Gladden Pass or even Gap of Rohan. He starts at the point to which he believes the others know the story. If he thought that C&G would have any questions on this like "Whoa, wait, and how did you get to Caradhras?", he would have started with explaining something else. It is, of course, possible that Aragorn (not being informed of everything) presumed C&G know the plan while they in fact did not (and they did not interrupt him because they considered it to be too impolite). But if Celeborn expected the Fellowship to go through Caradhras, looking at the word "needlesly", as you mentioned it, is in place. This suggests that although the preferred route, Caradhras, was closed, Celeborn knew of some B-route that was better than Moria. And this is indeed very strange. For if there was one, such as the Gladden Pass, and Gandalf or Aragorn knew about it, why did they not use it?
Aragorn says to Gandalf that they should try Moria only if other passages are closed:

Originally Posted by The Ring Goes South

But let us not speak of it again! Not yet. Say nothing to the others I beg, not until it is plain that there is no other way.

Then they simply return from Caradhras and go to Moria. At the beginning of the next chapter, most people speak the way that it seems that there is no way forward. Some of them don't know, of course, like the Hobbits, what paths are there, but still. Frodo:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

But how can I return without shame - unless there is indeed no other way, and we are already defeated?

And to this, Gandalf responds with the words that there is a way:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

"There is a way that we may attempt," said Gandalf. "I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Company before. Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried."

Note the slight change of the sense of Aragorn's words. In the quote above, Aragorn says that they should not speak about Moria until it's clear that there is no other way. Here, Gandalf interpretates it that Aragorn wanted to try the Pass, but nothing more. I am not to say that Gandalf intentionally twisted Aragorn's words, but it's a thing worth mentioning. It simply seems that there is no other way. Why not? Gandalf himself says it:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

Since our open attempt on the mountain-pass our plight has become more desperate, I fear. I see now little hope, if we do not soon vanish from sight for a while, and cover our trail. Therefore I advise that we should go neither over the mountains, nor round them, but under them. That is a road at any rate that the Enemy will least expect us to take.

And when in next moment, they hear the wolves coming, he says:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

It is as I said. The hunt is up! Even if we live to see the dawn, who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?

It is as I said. So, the conclusion is: there could have been a B-path, the Gladden Pass for example, but obviously after the attempt to pass Caradhras Gandalf thought that it should not be used. It is possible that they did not agree with Aragorn on this, and that Gandalf (judging from his words) simply knew (presumed) in forward that once they try one of the passes, they couldn't use any other later. Simply: "Closing one pass for us means that the Enemy is/will be closing all of them the same/similar way if we try." This is logical and it connects the words of Aragorn with the way Gandalf interpretates them, though Aragorn maybe did not believe all the ways are closed until he saw the wolves. And even then, as we know, he did not like to go to Moria. And Celeborn's opinion could have very well been the same, from what we hear.

[The Might]

"As for the longer road: we cannot afford the time. We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless. Yet they would not be safe. The watchful eyes both of Saruman and of the Enemy are on them..."

I think here you have the problem of seeing this from 2 totally different points of view.
In my post above I talked abut this possibility as an outsider person, that knows well what happened afterwards, while you answered it from Gandalf's perspective. He hoped t pass Caradhras without problems, go to Lorien, then through the Marshes and maybe use sme unknown path to enter Mordor or whatever. Theoretically.
But really would this road I though about have been less safe then all the Ringbearer went through, Moria and the Balrog, Orcs and a Nazgul attacking them from the eastern shore of Anduin, a dangerous passage through the Marshes, Ithilien filled with Sauron's minions and finally the Morgul Vale.

Was this really in the end more safe then going through Southern Gondor to Minas Tirith and then somehow to Mount Doom? I expect Gandalf knew about the Dead so Aragorn summoning them on the way to MT is definitely very likely. Also, the road might seem longer, but would it have really been longer?

And I repeat, I am asking this as an outside observer, and not thinking about what the Fellowship thought.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, let me put it this way: Sauron did not know that there's some "spy" in Mordor and he did not seek him. Saruman would have made all the effort to catch the Ringbearer if he knew (and he would have known) that the Ring is near, as I said earlier. The second problem would have been the supplies, they'd still have Bill, but the jouney through Drúwaith Iaur and Andrast is without any possibility to easily buy or get food (like they got from the elves in Lórien). Aragorn and Legolas could surely hunt something, but hunting or gathering food sufficient for nine people, including a warrior from Gondor and four hobbits is a task that cannot be accomplished easily and the possibilities would be to either hunt every day (nonsense, since then the Fellowship almost won't move) or always stop, hunt down ten deers and then go several days without the need to resupply.

Also, crossing the river would create a problem later: the people in the Fellowship even talk about it, I believe at the end of the second book, saying that they are lucky that they can cross the river on boats if they choose to. Down there, they would probably need to cross Osgiliath, which was impossible without the use of military power, and that in turn would of course warn Sauron of something happening (he did the same when he wanted to get the Riders to the western bank).

Not that it is a totally bad idea, but the journey would still be very dangerous due to Saruman and the reasons mentioned above. Also, even if Aragorn gathered the Dead, there will be no one to defend Rohan against Saruman, and no Light from Galadriel, and no Gollum (!). Then Aragorn and Boromir would have probably gone for Minas Tirith, in the best case helping to distract Sauron while the remaining Companions attempt to penetrate Mordor. But even if the Fellowship succeeded and Frodo, guarded by Gandalf would cast the Ring into the Mountain, there will be a really serious problem: a Many-Coloured Lord of Rohan, as Gandalf said to Denethor, he won't see allies arriving from Rohan, but foes. And so the Battle at the Pelennor Fields would have to be made one more time, this time probably with already broken gate and lowered number of men. If they'd even survive the first one without the Rohirrim, that is.

[The Might]

Legate, you again seem to totally misunderstand me.
If you would read my first post again you'd notice that I did not attempt to show this alternative could have been better or at least as good as what happened, but that it could have been taken as a valid option into account.

There still were Druedain living in that area, and if we were to simply speculate they were quite similar to the woses met by the Rohirrim, they would have probably helped the Fellowship, as they too fought the Orcs. From there it wouldn't have been a huge way till Pinnath Gelin, which we know was inhabited.

You speak about all the disadvantages of this route compared to the others, but you don't seem to take its great advantages into account.
No Moria, no Anduin with the eastern side watched by the Enemy, no all everything.

As for crossing Anduin, well, Pelargir comes to mind.

All in all, what I want to say, is not that this would have been a better alternative in the end, probably not, but was definitely an option that could have been taken into account.
I doubt that Gandalf planned what happened afterwards, for example Merry and Pippin's coming to Fangorn.
Their way through Moria could have been ever more devastating had the battle with the Orcs ended otherwise, the Ring could have been lost in some pit together with Frodo.
So I wouldn't be so hasty to clearly say that the road they took was the ideal one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

Legate, you again seem to totally misunderstand me.
If you would read my first post again you'd notice that I did not attempt to show this alternative could have been better or at least as good as what happened, but that it could have been taken as a valid option into account.

I think you are being a little bit contradictory here. In the post before you said that you are not looking from the point of the Fellowship. From whose point then do you want to "take it as valid option into account"? Because I took it from the point of one who analyzes the roads that could have been taken, from the point of a "tactician" who reads the book and thinks about alternative routes to Mordor. I don't see how I should misunderstand you in this way.

Originally Posted by TM

There still were Druedain living in that area, and if we were to simply speculate they were quite similar to the woses met by the Rohirrim, they would have probably helped the Fellowship, as they too fought the Orcs. From there it wouldn't have been a huge way till Pinnath Gelin, which we know was inhabited.

Well, the Drúedain were not willing to meddle into the affairs of the outworlders normally. With the Rohirrim, it was a very special case. Maybe they could have helped if the Fellowship was chased by the Uruk-hai of Mordor (and it would make a great part of the story, I think - something like the Rangers of Ithilien, "getting help where you don't expect it"), but I don't think that they'd just choose to help a band of travelers. Helping the company has nothing to do with the hatred of Orcs (one does not explain to a Wose that when the Ring is destroyed, a large threat posed by the Orcs is warded off).

Originally Posted by TM

You speak about all the disadvantages of this route compared to the others, but you don't seem to take its great advantages into account.
No Moria, no Anduin with the eastern side watched by the Enemy, no all everything.

I did not think it was necessary to think of the advantages, they are clear. But the only thing that is compensated is Moria (although it's a large blow), because the eastern side of Anduin watched by the Enemy is still in play (as I said above). But in the worst scenario as I outlined it above, meeting Saruman would be at least equal to the encounter with the Balrog (definitely when it was close to his home and he had also all the Orcs and stuff who, unlike the Orcs of Moria, would not tremble in the corner when Saruman would battle Gandalf, but fight alongside him).

Originally Posted by TM

As for crossing Anduin, well, Pelargir comes to mind.

Possibly? But that means a long journey on the road from south to the Crossroad, and with the reinforcements of Haradrim heading towards Imlad Morgul, in the land south of the Crossroad, unprotected by the Rangers of Ithilien, I wouldn't call that a safe way.

Originally Posted by TM

I doubt that Gandalf planned what happened afterwards, for example Merry and Pippin's coming to Fangorn.
Their way through Moria could have been ever more devastating had the battle with the Orcs ended otherwise, the Ring could have been lost in some pit together with Frodo.
So I wouldn't be so hasty to clearly say that the road they took was the ideal one.

Of course Gandalf did not plan that, he says that himself. To be honest, I get the feeling (and it has been voiced many times on many threads and not only by myself) that he did not have any plan (even Aragorn says that at certain moment).
But what you say about Moria, I think, could be applied for any road. Any battle with Orcs could have ended otherwise (and the worse, as I said many times, near Isengard and on open grounds, where they could be surrounded in a wood or something like that), so maybe only the falling to the pit. But I did not certainly say that the way through Moria was "ideal" - that's what Gandalf thought (obviously). Although it's true that it still looks better to me than taking the Ring near Isengard, whatever the case.

[The Might]

Well, sorry if I havent't expressed myself well enough. I also meant this as an outside observer, asking myself why this other way was not taken into consideration.
I mean by this that had I, been a member of the Fellowhip (The Might the Almighty ) I would have thought about it twice before entering Moria.

As for the second part, I think this is a subjective view. While you believe that Moria was, although dangerous, still better then south near Isengard, I think otherwise.

Indeed the marching Haradrim would have been a problem, but you must keep in mind, they were marching all the way to the north, so maybe only by going through the north they could have avoided this at all, but as it was close to Barad-dur that road would in the end be more dangerous. That way the Haradrim would be a problem no matter if the Fellowship had gone through Moria and the north or near Isengard and then south of Orodruin. Indeed, the north was watched by the Rangers and they could have helped the Fellowship, which does give north a certain advantage, I agree. But the south would be less watched, since most of the forces were already concentrated in the north of Mordor.

All in all, I don't wish to speculate how the Fellowship would have gotten into Mordor from the south, just as I don't wish to speculate how they would have done that from the north, had things gone otherwise during the Quest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

As for the second part, I think this is a subjective view. While you believe that Moria was, although dangerous, still better then south near Isengard, I think otherwise.

Well, you see what my point is - the Balrog, in contrary to Saruman, was not looking for the Ring and searching for it extensively. Also, Saruman was awake and spying up and down all the land, while the Balrog had to be awakened by some fool of a Took. This is why I believe the journey south was at least the same, if not more dangerous than Moria.

Originally Posted by TM

Indeed the marching Haradrim would have been a problem, but you must keep in mind, they were marching all the way to the north, so maybe only by going through the north they could have avoided this at all, but as it was close to Barad-dur that road would in the end be more dangerous. That way the Haradrim would be a problem no matter if the Fellowship had gone through Moria and the north or near Isengard and then south of Orodruin. Indeed, the north was watched by the Rangers and they could have helped the Fellowship, which does give north a certain advantage, I agree. But the south would be less watched, since most of the forces were already concentrated in the north of Mordor.

I'm afraid I don't understand what was the journey you meant here. Through Moria, then near Isengard (what? Why??? They already passed across the mountains, why head towards Isengard?) and south of Orodruin (where? How? You mean, through Gorgoroth? Or what? It's obvious that they would need to go through Gorgoroth. But how you present it is a little uncontinuous. I simply don't understand at all what you have in mind. Perhaps I am just sleepy).

[The Might]

Sorry, I just realise how stupid it sounds.
What I wanted t say is that the Haradrim posed a thread not only in South Ithilien, but also in the north, as they marched along that way as well. Though I must admit that that region was better defended due to the Rangers.

However, entering Mordor from the south (as I supposed they would have, had they gone through South Gondor), might have had its advantages as well, as that would mean that less Orcs would be in that area.

Again, sorry for my indeed very strange post.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No problem Oh, all right. It's clear then. Of course, you are right on what you say.

[The Might]

Boring, now we must find something new to argue about.

[Meriadoc1961]

One thing that I had not noticed until following this thread is that it would seem the question of who would have been more powerful, Gandalf or the Witch King, has been answered. If Gandalf feared taking the ring near Saruman through the Pass of Rohan more than facing Moria, then it would seem that in his glorified state Gandalf would have easily dispensed the Witch King. After all, he did vanquish the Balrog in his pre-"resurrected" self, a Balrog who should have been very close in powers to Sauron himself.

Merry