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09-20-2007, 11:01 AM | #1 |
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A 10th Nazgul?
If a Nazgul were to stab an enemy with a Morgul blade, the victim over time becomes a wraith, albeit weaker & under the command of the Nazgul. Why then did not the Nazgul carry this out on more enemies, e.g. Gollum? Gollum in the wraith form could have accompanied the Nazgul to hunt down the Ring. His instincts & knowledge of Hobbits could have helped them land the Ring much sooner.
Alternatively, Sauron may have ordered the Nazgul to only target the Ring Bearer with the Morgul Knife, since a wraith would not be easy to dispose of once created. Last edited by Mansun; 09-20-2007 at 03:40 PM. |
09-21-2007, 05:41 AM | #2 |
Spectre of Decay
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Morgul blades
As far as we know from LR, the Nazgûl only had one Morgul knife with them. Perhaps they were rare weapons, only to be used in unusual circumstances.
Gollum was already enslaved to the Ring, and Sauron could be fairly confident that following him would lead to its discovery sooner or later. It was easier to follow him in the hope that he would find the Ring than to waste powerful weapons or torture in the extraction of whatever garbled information he had about its whereabouts. Only Gandalf seems to have had the patience to tease some sort of coherent narrative out of his rambling babble. As for disposing of the wraith once created, it seems that once the lesser wraiths have served their purpose, they become playthings for Sauron and his minions rather than useful servants.
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09-27-2007, 12:40 PM | #3 |
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Why not simply inject the blade into a strong living man, & let him join the Nazgul? 10 Black Riders would surely have brought home the Ring to Sauron.
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09-27-2007, 12:59 PM | #4 |
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I suppose the answer would be the same as the one Squatter put before: the Morgul-blades were probably very rare weapons and not to be used just for stabbing around. Don't forget the blade broke when it hurt Frodo; the possibility of losing one such weapon in exchange for one little wraith (after a little time of waiting) is not much of a win. Also, Sauron wouldn't want to send some sort of newly recruited wraith on such an important mission; we know that he wanted to send only the Ringwraith because he was 100% sure of their loyalty: they had "no other will than his own" and they were bound by the Rings. Also, when Gandalf explains to Frodo what would've happened to him if he was not healed, he says that he'd become a lesser shadow under the command of the Wraiths. So not much of a gamble as well. One more less powerful wraith won't change the odds. That's to say if Sauron even had as many horses
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09-27-2007, 01:43 PM | #5 |
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Sauron could have used the Morgul Blade on the Mouth of Sauron, one of his most trusted servants. Why not commit to enslaving as a 10th Nazgul?
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09-27-2007, 01:51 PM | #6 |
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Would there have been a spare ring? Actually, I'm struck by the symbolism of the nine rings on Sauron's nine fingers, & the Ringwraiths almost as manifestations of his fingers stretching out across M-e & his eye constantly seeking out the Ringbearer, as if Sauron is physically present everywhere ... (I think I read something similar in the One Ring's People's Guide to Tolkien)
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09-27-2007, 02:02 PM | #7 |
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That's what I thought, even making a "lesser wraith" won't make anything equal or at least similar to a "true" Nazgul: it would be simply as making one more silly Barrow-wight (if ever, with all respect to Barrow-wights ).
I'm not sure about the fingers interpretation; I mean: I'm not sure if Tolkien ever said he had that in mind; though it is a fitting idea. We can paraphrase the famous Gollum's words: "He has only nine on his Black Hands, but they are enough". Anyway, making a 10th Nazgul won't just sit from the very logic of it: the Nazgul are what they are and making more would completely destroy the effect. Plus, 10 does not seem to be such a good number as well. It's just too much.
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09-27-2007, 02:17 PM | #8 |
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This may sound very amusing, but what would happen if the Morgul Blade was used on, say, an Oliphaunt? Perhaps the outcome would be a creature which a Nazgul could command as a steed?
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09-27-2007, 02:24 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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If steeds for the Nine could be created this way, why steal horses from Rohan or create winged creatures for the Nine to ride?
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09-27-2007, 02:52 PM | #10 |
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Is there not a difference between a Wraith and a Ring Wraith? The nine each had contact with one of the 9 mortal rings, and this was the route of their incarceration - it is completely different to the Morgul Blade's affliction. The nine hunt the one ring, what evidence is there to suggest a Wraith of different substance would do so also?
Personally, on reading the book, i thought that Frodo would have become a dithering "specter" like figure, serving the Nazgul, yet below them utterly. Legate mentioned this in his post and i am inclined to agree as it ties closely with my own interpretation. To summarize: By my interpretation alone, it would appear to me that because of the nature of the original Ring Wraiths and how they came to be, it is impossible to replicate them unless in the same fashion. I believe a Wraith and Ring Wraith classification is necessary, being that they are very different in power and authority. I think that if say Frodo was to be stabbed with the Morgul Blade, he would have been inferior and not able to detect the ring, therefore being rendered quite useless to Sauron and the Nazgul - furthermore, i believe one such person would be nothing but a servant to the Ring Wraiths and the Good Lord Sauron.
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09-27-2007, 04:10 PM | #11 | |
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Many questions, few answers
Originally posted by davem:
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But I digress from the topic of this thread. There seems to be a similar, though lesser, capacity to enslave mortals inherent in the Morgul-blade as is inherent in the Nazgul rings (or actually, became inherent when the One Ring was created. I'm sure Celebrimbor did not create the Rings with the intention of enslaving mortals.) Aside from their common inventor (Sauron) might there be any connection between them? What I mean is, the Nine enslave their bearers because they are slaves to the One. How does a Morgul-blade enslave? It's unlikely the blades were forged with the power of the One, since that was either in the Anduin, under the Misty Mountains with Gollum or in Bilbo's pocket (unless the blades date from the second age. Anyone know?) Could they have been forged with one of the Nine, or whatever are left of the Seven? or are they a seperate technology? And what of the Barrow-wight? He is presumably the Ghost Prince of Cardolan, is he not? The enemy of the Witch King of Angmar in life. What made him a ghost, instead of passing beyond the circles of the world? Would an earlier Morgul-blade, if used, have the power to trap his spirit in his grave? Just how powerful could they be?
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09-28-2007, 02:54 AM | #12 | |||
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Anyway, to the main question. "How does a Morgul-blade enslave?" I believe the process is totally different from how the Rings enslave. The Morgul-blade, so to say, slowly kills you. The Ring just possesses you and fading is just a side effect, but the Morgul-blade chills you and makes you fade. The splinter traveled to Frodo's heart, if it pierced it (as it was the original intention, anyway), he'd be dead, technically, but the will of the Ringwraith (or Sauron) would possess his body (or "shadow", to be precise in terminology, since he'd enter the Wraith-world at that moment). There's something like a thin line between the seen and unseen and you pass it for example when you have the Ring on; and so Frodo would be trapped in this world forever as the Ringwraith are, seeing everything dim as they do, and his body would have just disappeared for the others (as if he were invisible). That's at least how I imagine it, I may be wrong. I imagine it the way that his brain "freezes" and his own personality is "doused" and the Ringwraith then could possess him. Technically, the result is the same as when he is possessed by the Ring, but the way is, I believe, somewhat different. Quote:
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10-15-2007, 08:13 PM | #13 |
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I do agree that the barrow-wights were not the spirits of men(I believe that it mentions somewhere that they were indeed simply spirits of darkness, or things that the Witchking had conjured at Carn-Dum, either way they were not the spirits of men). But I do think that the Morgul-Blades would make one more powerful than most of you(if not all) are describing.
I always imagined that by 'lesser darkness', it meant like how there were Maiar that were weaker than others, like comparing Sauron to Gandalf. In this case, we compare the Nazgul to the wraiths of their creation(or not?). Who knows? We never actually saw any of these wraiths (at least to our knowledge), and Frodo didn't die (or become possessed, however you want to call it) by his most greivous of wounds. The fact of the matter is, we really don't know. To the most of my knowledge, little was really said about these 'lesser wraiths' than what is said in the FotR. I simply wish Tolkien had said more of the matter, the topic in itself fascinates me to a great extent.
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10-15-2007, 09:16 PM | #14 |
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I had this same question some time ago. As stated in the text, the 5 Nazgul withdrew after stabbing Frodo, thinking he would have soon succumbed to the wound. This suggests of course that they had some experience in the matter of turning their victims in to wraiths. This suggests in turn that there are more than one of these victims wandering around, although lacking one of the Nine Rings, there power would be very limited.
In fact, I was wondering whether this was not the fate of Earnur, who was lost in Minas Morgul...
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10-16-2007, 12:20 PM | #15 | ||
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Concerning the withdrawal of the Ringwraith, I don't think they would need to have practical experience with turning people to wraiths - if they made them (especially the Witch-king, which I believe he did, being the master of sorcery and all; and even if he did not, as a sorcerer he would "know" how the blade works). That's not that I am saying they did not (or, to be precise, the Witch-King did not) stab anyone with a Morgul-blade before, making him a wraith, but I believe this could have happened once or twice, not twenty or thirty times (or maybe, the Nazgul being so ancient - and if the Morgul-blades are ancient as well, and do not exist just from the moment when Minas Morgul was built, for more about this see my post above - they could have done that more often, especially during the Second Age when Sauron was at his full power; but that would mean twenty or thirty times in five thousand years, which is not as much). You are coming to very similar conclusions, or ideas I once had as well (well, I was eleven at that moment, but forget it ), and it's more than logical. Since we don't know anything of Eärnur's fate, and he rode to Morgul to face the Witch-king himself, it is not as improbable that he could end like that. However that's still left only to speculation and in my opinion, if we were to stay more true to the "spirit of the story", it would be more probable that Eärnur was ambushed by a force of orcs, outnumbered, and though he fought valiantly and slain many orcs, he could not win because the orcs were many, and his body was dishonourably... hmm... thrown to Shelob? Or something like that.
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10-16-2007, 05:02 PM | #16 | ||||
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10-17-2007, 01:35 AM | #17 | ||||
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10-17-2007, 04:45 PM | #18 | |
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I suppose that a large company of Orcs could have trapped Earnur and his Knights, but certainly the Witch King did not seem to be afraid to confront him 9 years or so before in Eriador...
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10-17-2007, 08:27 PM | #19 |
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Well the Witchking may have been mighty and merciless, but it seems that he can be rather easily goaded into battle, as we certainly saw by his encounter with Eowyn.
No doubt Earnur would have occasionally mocked him over his loss of Angmar. So it was likely a matter of pride for our tall and gruesome freind. And even accepting the Witchking's challenge (however delayed it may have been) seems rather arrogant and possibly insulting to the Witchking. I am not meaning to draw any conclusions by my next statement, so please don't make it sound like I am. But what better fate for one that had drawn the Witchking's rage as much as Earnur, than to become the very thing he had fought so bravely against. This is only speculation however, and comes simply from my understanding (If it can be called such) of the Witchking's hatred of Earnur and the Gondorians. But as I have said before, we really don't know.
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My time is at an end, for I have walked from Valinor to the Far-east where men have not gone for millennia. Demons have fallen before me. And now... I must rest... Last edited by Lord Halsar; 10-17-2007 at 09:25 PM. |
10-18-2007, 10:53 PM | #20 |
Shade with a Blade
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I agree that anyone who got wraith-ized with a black stabby wraith knife would not have been a Black Rider-level wraith. They would be a different variety of wraith altogether, as their wraith-ness had no connection any of the Rings, really. Had Frodo been successfully wraith-ized avec wraith knife, he would have become a puny, flimsy, useless, drifting, invisible spirit. The point of the wraith-izing morgul knife was to take away power, not to grant more of it. They were trying to make him as thoroughly weak and helpless as possible.
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12-01-2007, 10:51 AM | #21 |
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I don't think Frodo could have become a wraith like the other Nazgul; he would definitely be a lesser wraith, possibly even a spy because of his short stature.
You have to remember that before the Nazgul were wraiths they were great kings of men, skilled in battle and strategizing. It would be hard to find another living person who would meet their skill. The Nazugul were use to working with each other, they could act as a team, and a new addition to that team may have caused friction between them. Maybe this is why they didn't have more Nazgul, but I think anyone would be content with Nine wraiths.
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12-01-2007, 01:16 PM | #22 |
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Remember, Sauron could only control the Keepers of the Nine when he had the One- otherwise they would be free agents, outside his dominion. Sauron would have to have forced their Rings from them before the end of the Second Age, after they had been thoroughly 'wraithed.' In the Third Age he couldn't give them out again, because he would have no way of controlling the new Bearer.
One also wonders what would happen to one of the Nine if his Ring were given to someone else- would his link to it be broken? Would he die?
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12-02-2007, 12:00 PM | #23 | |
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12-09-2007, 03:46 PM | #24 |
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Interesting topic! I like many here do not think that being stabbed by a Morgul blade turns you into a Ringwraith, though it does seem to turn you into some form of wraith-like creature perhaps something like the Barrow-weights, or the dead men of Dunharrow perhaps? Or maybe even something like the dead seen in the Dead Marshes?
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12-10-2007, 01:58 PM | #25 |
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I believe Boromir, son of Denethor I, was stabbed by a Morgul blade while defending Osgiliath, and while it didn't completely kill him it shortened his life. How did he recover from his wounds without turning into a wraith?
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12-10-2007, 02:00 PM | #26 |
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The blade obviously did not pierce his heart.
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12-10-2007, 02:25 PM | #27 |
Shade with a Blade
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In lieu of the thread's title ("A 10th Nazgul?"): by definition, one can only become a Nazgul/Ringwraith by wearing a Ring of Power for extended periods of time. Getting stabbed by a Morgul blade might turn you into a Morgulbladewraith, but it's certainly not going to make you a Ringwraith.
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05-14-2008, 12:23 PM | #28 |
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I'd always wondered what would have become of Frodo if he had faded. Luckily - I guess - we never get to find out.
That said, in Rivendell we hear Gandalf talk about what 'could' have happened. How did Gandalf know? Where did he gain said knowledge? Was there any examples? Surely there must have been one, and that one human, as Gandalf compares Frodo to the yardstick of a human warrior (whom Frodo surpassed by many many days in bearing the splinter of Morgul). I do agree that the notched "Wraithanator" knife born by the Witch-King was not a common artifact. I assume that this knife, and any like it, were the product of some spell that required some time and resources to prepare. So they weren't too common, but there must have been two - or another like item that created wraiths, as again the Wise have information about the effects of one. Why the King chose to use it against Frodo and not any Gondorian - like Faramir and Boromir - or elf or human king, I'll never know as it seems to me that he could have claimed the Ring with less expense, and used the 'hard to produce' knife for greater gain. A notched arrow may have been even more effective. And note that I love the thought of a wraith Oliphaunt.
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05-18-2008, 05:54 AM | #29 | |
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05-19-2008, 12:31 PM | #30 | |
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The Mammoth (2006) http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0487037/ "We hunted it to extinction. Now it's hunting us."
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08-25-2008, 07:55 AM | #31 |
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What will they make a movie about next?
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08-27-2008, 12:16 AM | #32 | |
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If enough could be made, it would be a devastating weapon (especially in a RTS game). The qualifier being "If". Still, wow. Maybe I'll borrow this idea for my book....... |
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