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08-21-2007, 09:36 AM | #1 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Lord of Gravity
The idea for this thread all started with a flippant comment regarding which of the Valar was the Lord of Gravity, some wind-downed trees and recent reading of Greek mythology.
Assuming that our world is Arda in an Age later than documented by Tolkien. This world was created by Eru, marred by Melkor and patched by the Valar. We witness daily round this world 'natural' disasters - hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, blizzards, tornadoes and other calamities, on both the small and large scales. How and why do these things occur? Are all of the 'bad' events, such as a tornado that wipes out a village, the mixing of power of one Valar (Manwė) with the legacy of Melkor? Or is it just the work of Manwė, and we just don't understand the purpose of the event? While driving home the other day after a particularly powerful storm, I couldn't help but think that Yavanna could not be very happy with the hundreds of uprooted trees lying about - trees uprooted by the winds purportedly under the control of Manwė. Maybe this was 'part of the plan' where the Lord of Air's help was enlisted to knock down a few aging trees, and well, sorry if one fell on your house or across your path. At least with Ossė, we have documentation that this maia is not always 'friendly,' and so many of the sea-related natural calamities could pour from his hands. Earthquakes and mine cave-ins could be laid at the feet of the Nameless Things, which may be burrowing around under the firmament, pushing up mountains and opening up chasms, and Aulė too busy pretending to be Iarwain Ben-adar (not) to be any help. Volcanoes explode due to the fluttering of a trapped Balrog's wings perhaps? Blight and subsequent famine, at a stretch, could be some plan of Yavanna, as maybe the soil/land may need to be rebooted now and again by a swarm of locusts. I guess the question is not how and why does evil exist, as I think that Tolkien answers that in Arda, but how and why do natural disasters occur? Science tells us that, well, things happen, and will continue to happen as the world is continually in flux (the mountains/hills where I currently live were at one time under swampy water during the Carboniferous period, so things do change). Are the 'gods' angry with us, have a plan that we don't understand, or is the marring of Melkor still in play, and the Valar can not or will not hold back its dominion?
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08-21-2007, 10:11 AM | #2 |
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The marring of Melkor is still in play. imho
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08-21-2007, 11:23 AM | #3 | |||
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I think if you ask for the answers of Arda, then it's clear from the Ainulindalė to me, as Elempi said: all the bad things come from Morgoth's marring, for example he was the one who created the unbearable cold and also the... (*interesting, now I had some sort of problem with memory, and could not think of what is the English word for the opposite of cold... but the word that immediately came to my mind, was the Elven word śre. So yup, that's it Interesting, by the way - the Prof would surely be happy if he heard about this, because he'd explain it so that's because I find the word śre suitable for naming that thing *) I imagine it the way that he could misuse any power of Valar, because originally
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08-21-2007, 11:26 AM | #4 |
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Easy and already hinted at ...
Osse and Uinen have reached that dangerous stage in their relationship... "The Seven Age itch"
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08-21-2007, 03:33 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Only alatar would actually start a thread called "Lord of Gravity" WITHOUT tongue in cheek...
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08-22-2007, 02:23 AM | #6 | |||
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If a tree falls in the forest?
If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?
These natural disasters are only disasters because people are around to witness (and suffer from) them. From the Silmarillion: Quote:
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08-22-2007, 04:06 AM | #7 | |||||
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In other words, for example Aulė could have thought that an erupting volcano could be a nice thing to behold, but did not think of the possibility that it may harm anyone. However... ...however, I am sure that's not satisfactory explanation. First, even my example above is probably a little bit "out", since we know that Melkor created the "unbearable heat" and so on, so generally, I daresay that probably even then Valar did not originally create anything "harmful" by itself, that it all came through Melkor. Then, many beautiful things (like the snow etc) came out of originally evil intention; but not vice versa. And concerning my volcano example, it was just an example - probably a bad one, by the way, because Quote:
Also, when Valar came down to Arda, they had still much, much work to do (and from that time comes what you, radagastly, mention in the second quote in your post above). The important thing is that they already knew that there were some Children coming - they knew it from the Vision, and they were technically making the whole World anew, just "by the lines" of the Music. Let's see: Quote:
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Then there is one last thing, which supports the idea that the natural disasters are "evil" in nature. As I said just now, there was no dischord between the Valar, apart from the one Melkor created. Even in the beginning. And here is my point. Yavanna, as we know, created kelvar and olvar (animals and plants), and as alatar already said in his first post, Yavanna would surely not be happy with the uprooted trees after a wind storm. But there was nothing like Yavanna's sadness at first in the song, so we can conclude that Manwė did not create any sort fo wind that would tear trees from their places. And the most important, and with that I am going to finish, is the animals. You said, radagastly, "If a tree fals in the forest, and there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?" It's appropriate to say that if there were no Children, the natural disasters won't need to be classificated as "bad" because they won't harm anyone. But let's not forget that even before the Children, there were the living plants and also animals who can be afraid of things, and you'd hear them screaming if suddenly a volcano erupted near them. In this point of view, the original, unmarred Arda without Melkor would have been unharmful to its denizens, be they the Children or just plants and animals.
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08-22-2007, 08:41 AM | #8 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Thanks for posting, everyone.
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Crack! BOOM! The house up on top of the hill is no more. The fire now there is hard to see as the afterimage of the lightning bolt hitting the hilltop is still etched on both father's and son's eyes. When they recover from the shock, the son looks up at his dad, the question his face apparent. *** How does dad reply? Would it be dependent on what is assumed to be the cause of the lightning? And so:
What does the person living in today's Arda say to his son? Was it Melkor, Melkor's legacy, part of Eru's plan, Manwe, etc? And note that I don't mean to disparage anyone's beliefs.
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08-22-2007, 10:07 AM | #9 | |
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08-22-2007, 11:29 AM | #10 | ||
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08-22-2007, 01:25 PM | #11 |
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Perhaps this may be a tad too serious an answer for such a question, but I think we've seen the start of the correct answer in saying "it is Melkor's evil at work in the world".
To expand on that, if one reads the essays in HoME X Morgoth's Ring, I believe it is in the fourth section (the one that deals specifically with various Melkor Morgoth related topics), one will find the writings that gave the book its name. Unfortunately, I don't have my copy at home with me, but it's back up at college, but I can recap: Basically, in the same way that Sauron disseminated his power into the Ring, and used it to control things (specifically, the other Rings), Morgoth disseminated his power on a much broader scale: throughout all the physical matter of Arda. Tolkien adds that nothing (possibly excepting Aman) is free of the "taint" of Morgoth. Some parts of matter are more tainted than others; gold, for example, is a very strongly tainted element, hence why Sauron used it to make the Ring, as opposed to silver, but all matter has some Morgoth-element in it. In the same way that the Sauron-element in the Ring gave it a "consciousness", so to speak, which we see manifested in the way it seeks to return to him, and betray its wearer, it is logical to assume that the Melkor-element in Arda is similarly still working towards his goal. And that goal, ultimately, we are also told in the same section of HoME X, is "the destruction and annihilation of Arda". Morgoth is unable to ever create or control all things, for he is not Eru, and as he becomes more evil, he becomes more blindly destructive. In this light, I think it is very easy to see hurricanes, earthquakes, or the like as the manifestations of the Melkor-element in Arda blindly raging in destruction. Sorry about no direct quotes, but my set of the HoME is in Edmonton, and I'm three hours away on a three week holiday at home.
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08-23-2007, 09:02 AM | #12 |
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Seemingly the consensus is that it's Melkor's legacy that causes the natural disasters. Though he was cast into the Void, his malevolence lingers to plague the residents, flora, fauna and works within Arda. All well and good. It's not what we would have wanted, but at least we know who's behind the disasters and so just have to tough it out as best we can.
Or is there something we can do? Assume an earthquake swallows up an entire village as father and son watch from a safe vantage point. It's not their village, so they aren't as upset as if it were their home. Still, as they walk home, the father has to answer more questions from his inquisitive son.
Maybe that's why no one prays in Middle Earth.
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08-23-2007, 09:21 AM | #13 |
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Real World - things just happen. We are just vulnerable apes in clothes no matter how we try and impose our intellect on things. We can prevent or predict some disasters but not others, nature is Bigger Than Us. It serves to put us in our place. Some answer it with religion, others with science, either way it's intellectualising and nature often shows us up for being too clever
Tolkien's World - here things are more simple in a way. Eru creates Morgoth, who goes out and marrs the creation of the world, but hey, in doing so, he also creates the chance for great works of beauty - both inadvertent creations of his evil such as beautiful ice floes and mighty thunderstorms, and creations made in response to his evil such as Gondolin, mighty swords and human qualities of bravery and honour. All of which ironically serve only to fly in the face of Morgoth and make Eru look that bit more cool and awesome. The Book of Job shows us a similar God, one who causes smiting and destruction, and when Job questions him, he finds out it's Because He Can, Don't Question My Authority. I reckon if Alatar of the Barrow Downs asked the same question of Eru - why do you allow this? - he might get much the same answer, but with the footnote and pat on the head: "but don't worry, because whatever nasty stuff Morgoth has put into Arda, ultimately only serves to glorify me a bit more".
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08-23-2007, 09:45 AM | #14 | |||
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08-23-2007, 03:10 PM | #15 |
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Why don't the Valar do anything? Are Manwė and Varda powerless?
I think the answer is, for the most part: yes. Think about it; we are told that the Valar did not make war on Morgoth after his escape from Valinor (I believe this may also be from Morgoth's Ring), quite largely because to do so would rend the earth in much the same fashion as the tumults of the world when they imprisoned him the first time, and they feared for the survival of Men, who are not as hardy as the Elves. Additionally, though, if we continue to compare the Earth to the Ring, then remember how Sauron's connection to the Ring was finally broken: by destruction--utter destruction in Mt. Doom. If the Valar destroy "Morgoth's Ring", we are left with... nothing. Arda will be no more--or no more inhabitable by Men, anyway (and probably not by anything else, either). Of course, the day will come when the Valar must take the battle to Morgoth. Tolkien's writings are lightly scattered with references to "Dagor Dagorath", the battle at the end of times, when Melkor will at last be slain, but also when the Earth shall end. Shall "Morgoth's Ring" be destroyed--the final end of Arda Marred?
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08-23-2007, 03:51 PM | #16 | ||||||
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08-23-2007, 03:57 PM | #17 |
Cryptic Aura
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Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"
Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."
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08-23-2007, 08:25 PM | #18 | ||
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Your answer seems to be the 'serenity' prayer. My point, besides never accepting things as they are, is that in Arda the Valar either cannot, will not or do not intervene, or if they do we can not discern their handiwork from the background; therefore the Valar are irrelevant save the bedtime story with occasional moral lesson. Raise a cup to the Westering Sun, but keep your sword sharp, boots dry and water bottle full, as that's all you can depend on. And regarding the Book of Ecclesiastes, even I'm more positive than that.
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08-24-2007, 05:16 AM | #19 | ||
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OK, it's Lalwendë's post actually...
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 08-24-2007 at 05:20 AM. |
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08-24-2007, 07:57 AM | #20 |
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Judging by the Ainulindale, wherein virtually everything the Valar built was *almost* undone by Melkor, the Arda we wound up with is nothing like the original intent of Manwe & Co. Reminds me a bit of the part of Big Bang Theory in which the proportions of matter and antimatter were nearly equivalent, and annihilated each other, and the very tiny excess of matter is what was left.
Anyway, as to natural disasters- one of the late essays (can't be bothered to look for it) points out that Mordor was the way it was, and so named 'Black Land', before Sauron ever set up shop there- it was a leftover from Melkor's primal Marring. So if volcanoes stem from that source, there's no reason to exclude earthquakes, and weather patterns that produce storms.
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08-24-2007, 09:54 AM | #21 |
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It seems to me that the logical conclusion a 7th Age Tolkienist must reach, barring any "outside influences" from the 1st Century of our present era, is the Nordic world view with its code of honor and dark, cold, windblown skies, and Ragnarok over the horizon.
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08-24-2007, 10:06 AM | #22 | |
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08-24-2007, 07:43 PM | #23 | |
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Those Men who had never mixed with the Eldar were surely less likely to become "good men" than those who had. Throughout the history of Middle Earth, "good men" are the exception rather than the rule. They are always Northern, which is an interesting aspect of Tolkien's set-up that deserves discussion in its own right. Anyway, as Tolkien shows, Men tend to forget, unless constantly reminded, about such personages as Eru and the particularities of the Valar. Therefore, the best, that is the Northern line of men, loses the bedrock for its code of honor but keeps the code because it makes sense in terms of the hard life they live. Death comes quickly. Winter bites deeply. The laws of bloodshed and vengeance take primacy. Thus the pessimism of a brutal world. |
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08-25-2007, 03:04 AM | #24 | ||
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08-25-2007, 08:08 AM | #25 | ||
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08-25-2007, 08:15 AM | #26 | |||
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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08-25-2007, 10:06 AM | #27 | |
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It must be acknowledged that, for the purposes of this discussion, Maiar still are extant and may and will do as is in them to do. There have been mythologies in which both good and evil Maiar have ensconced themselves throughout the Seven Ages. We may not, for the purposes of this discussion, dismiss them out of hand just because Tolkien is not the recorder of their histories. So we have the Mayan, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Hittite, Hindu, Chinese, Hebrew, Celtic, and last but not least, Nordic myths, and no doubt many others which I have not named. We may conclude that these myths were engendered and inhabited by Maiar still at loose in Arda; and since they are by and large at odds with those histories recorded by Tolkien, we may conclude that they are filled with lies. Since they are filled with lies, we can deduce that they are in fact inhabited almost exclusively by evil Maiar. Though of less stature than Sauron and Morgoth, these evil Maiar may be concluded to have been Pluto, Set, Murdok, Kumarbis, Lucifer, Surt, and so forth. Have humans indeed comported themselves well throughout history, whether in servitude to these myths' Maiar or after they have been thrown out in favor of a limited set of myths that are these days called 'world religions'? Has slavery ever not been part of human history through these last three of the Seven Ages? Has genocide? Conquest? Petty theft? Murder? Sacrificing one's own offspring to the gods - er - excuse me, Maiar? I'm very sorry, but throughout the history of the Seven Ages, there is little evidence to suggest that humans by and large have comported themselves very well at all. |
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08-25-2007, 10:56 AM | #28 | ||||
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08-25-2007, 04:17 PM | #29 | ||||
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Okay, the above was in part facetious. What follows is serious. Quote:
And politicians can only do what the citizens blithely allow them to do, if we actually have democratic governments anymore. If our governments are no longer democratic such that we can control the politicians, that speaks no better for your claim of moral evolution. As for He who holds Justice as His own sole possession, no entity can deprive Him of anything at all, for He holds it all anyway. It is His to reward or punish, and the "deprivation" of any one soul in no way makes Him a loser. I hold to hope as do you. But the questions being posed here, absent any sureties that we may hold as His followers, can only be answered with despair. It is only logical. Thus, the Nordic noble hero with no hope is the most logical ideal when argued to the question's conclusions. |
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08-25-2007, 05:34 PM | #30 | |||||||||
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08-25-2007, 08:34 PM | #31 | ||||||
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However, this has strayed a good deal from the main point. The point I have been making is that humans have not evolved morally. My earlier point, that despair is the only logical conclusion to the Tolkienian system, was facetious in part, based on my reading of history such that humans have a knack for forgetting about Eru, and thus tend to lose, over the course of perhaps three or more generations, the basis they once had for their hope. Last edited by littlemanpoet; 08-25-2007 at 08:39 PM. |
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08-26-2007, 05:27 AM | #32 | ||
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08-26-2007, 05:45 AM | #33 | |||
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Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda. "Son, we live in Arda marred. The taint of Morgoth is upon all things. We will mourn the loss of our friends on the heights, and we shall put their deeds to song." |
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08-26-2007, 06:16 AM | #34 | ||||
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08-26-2007, 03:21 PM | #35 | |||||
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08-26-2007, 08:59 PM | #36 |
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Until lmp's and Raynor's discussion, I thought that I had all of the answers that I needed:
As to the discussion, though I found it interesting, not exactly sure what it all means. Pessimist/skeptic/cynic that I am, I don't think that the world is getting worse, morally. Same percentages; larger number of participants. Back during the Kin-strife, we had good and bad people slain for no good reason, though the numbers were limited. Today, we can play the same old game but increase the damage - human and otherwise - exponentially. Also, sans a palantir one didn't hear news unless one actively sought out a loquacious Dwarf or made the journey to the borders or even Bree (from a Shire folk's point of view). Today all of us have second generation palantirs in our homes, and so can know news in real time from anywhere on this globe. So anyway, we may be not better or worse than when we started, and so that makes me feel that the 'despair' noted above is unwarranted. Today's heroes don't get immortalized in songs like they once did, and maybe their deeds aren't as valiant. Hurin may not be found again - our species doesn't have a Durin - but even today there are some little and big stands taken against the darkness, and that too gives me hope. There's also a little corner in me - probably due to the kids - that thinks that as a species we might make it. Doesn't the foretelling say that we humans, carrying the blood of the three races, will always spring back up? And in the end we leave. Isn't that the true gift that Eru gave us? The chance to leave this all behind - all of it, maybe even Him, as if this is the best he can do, giving us Arda Marred... - and go elsewhere? Maybe one day we will live elsewhere, and leave Melkor's taint here. Thanks for posting.
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08-27-2007, 10:05 AM | #37 |
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08-28-2007, 02:31 PM | #38 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Somehow, even to me, Niggle's Parish (thanks for the reference!) sounds a whole lot better than that angry orange planet, Mars.
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