The Witch King versus . . . Elrond?

If a league table of the most powerful creatures in Middle Earth was made, where would all the main creatures be listed from the Lord of the Rings?

1.Morgoth

2.Sauron

3.Gandalf the White

4.Elrond

5.Elendil

6.Isildur

7.Tom Bombadil

8.Glorfindel

9.Saruman the White

10.Galadriel

11.The Witch King (enhanced)???

[Boromir88]

First 3 look good...really no argument there.

I would move Galadriel and Glorfindel into a tie at fourth...for reasoning you should look at this thread.

Then the rest would kind of look like...

5. Tom Bombadil (Glorfindel - or someone else whom I forget - guesses that Tom would only fall if Sauron had used all of his might against him. 'First as he was last.' Pretty impressive...hmm I might even put him right behind Gandalf).

6. Saruman (Being of the same Order as Gandalf and Sauron he would probably be more powerful than most of the Elves. Now, I'm just kind of guessing this because not all Maiar - just as not all Elves, Men...etc are all equal in power. However, in Letter 156 Tolkien writes that the old Gandalf would not have been able to deal with Saruman...so Saruman too must have been one tough cookie. Hmm now that I think about it I might put him right behind Tom B. who is right behind Gandalf).

7. Elrond
8. Elendil
9. Isildur
10. The Witch-King

That's as far as the ones you have listed. As I would throw Cirdan in there behind Elrond. Eventhough Elendil and Isildur were 'great' among Men, they were still Men and the greatest of the Elves would probably be greater than them.

The Witch-King is after all a Man...he was most likely one of the Numenorean Lords (3 of the Ringwraiths were 'great Lords of Numenor'). Sauron did enhance his powers at the Pelennor, but that just made him a Man with some cool tricks. He still operated primarily off of fear and if one did not fear him (such as Gandalf or even Frodo, Eowyn, and Merry) than he wasn't much of an opponent.

But, I think as you can see there really is no rigid, easily defined 'answers.' You can make some good arguments...and I've seen obloquy make a good argument that Gandalf the White may have been more powerful than Sauron.

[Hammerhand]

Because of the amount of conflicting arguments i think you'd struggle to make a list as such. On the one you've made, i think Tom Bombadil would be suited to a place in the top few, i've read a number of interesting debates about his true identity. I'll draw a list of what i think, using the characters you have. Even though, Morgoth doesn't really come into LotR. I really like Boromir88's additional thought of Cirdan; i think maybe Gil-Galad and Celeborn are also worth noting.

1. Morgoth
2. Sauron
3. Tom Bombadil
4. Gandalf the White
5. Saruman the White
6. Glorfindel
7. Elrond
8. Galadriel
9. Elendil
10. Isildur
11. Witch King

and with the additional characters:

1. Morgoth
2. Sauron
3. Tom Bombadil
4. Gandalf the White
5. Saruman the White
6. Glorfindel
7. Elrond
8. Gil-Galad
9. Galadriel
10. Cirdan
11. Celeborn
12. Elendil
13. Isildur
14. Witch King

[Raynor]

Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First".

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why are Morgoth and Elendil present, if the list is about LotR? They belong to different ages, especially Morgoth. And if he is included, then of what age is he compared to Sauron? Cf. Myths Transformed, "Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First".

Well, Elendil was present during the reign of Sauron and the rings... even if for a short while (Last Alliance...) Morgoth on the other hand, as Raynor and i have stated, is somewhat seperate from the third age.

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

Well, Elendil was present during the reign of Sauron and the rings... even if for a short while (Last Alliance...) Morgoth on the other hand, as Raynor and i have stated, is somewhat seperate from the third age.

Morgoth was still referenced by Gandalf in the LOTR, & it would not seem right to leave out arguably the greatest being (at least on paper) ever to have set foot in ME.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Morgoth was still referenced by Gandalf in the LOTR, & it would not seem right to leave out arguably the greatest being (at least on paper) ever to have set foot in ME.

He didn't have an active role in the LoTR, banished from the world as he is - so a mere reference cannot count. Besides, i believe it would seem right to disclude him because of the amount of other powerful characters from past ages that are not counted for. If it covered all the beings of all the ages, i think it is safe to say the list would be totally different.

[Knight of Gondor]

I agree with the corrections of my fellow BDers, but I am wondering what exactly the definition of "powerful" is. Do we mean powerful, as in intrinsic strength of will and spirit? Do we mean powerful as in the spiritual/supernatural powers of those less mortal?

I ask because Elendil and Isildur are both mentioned, yet both of these are men. One of the only examples (in my mind, anyway) of either of these two exhibiting any power is Isildur cursing the folk of the mountain never to rest until they fulfilled their Oath. In which case, Aragorn must certainly be judged more hardy, than Isildur at least, because he refused the Ring, and held his companions to the Paths of the Dead, and commanded their allegiance to fulfill their oaths.

[Knight of Gondor]

Question: Is Tom Bombadil greater than Gandalf?

I note that Gandalf seems to know much of him, speaks of him almost as a brother. When he leaves the hobbits, it is to go have a conversation with him, and, almost as a journey's-end lament, says that Tom was a moss-gatherer, whilst Gandalf was a stone doomed to roll. This indicates that Gandalf had much prior knowledge of Bombadil.

I base my question also on the concept of danger. Gandalf says that he is "more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." Depending on how much power one reads into the concept of how great a threat one can pose to one's enemies, this indicates that Gandalf is greater in might, even than Iarwain.

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

Question: Is Tom Bombadil greater than Gandalf?

Depending on how much power one reads into the concept of how great a threat one can pose to one's enemies, this indicates that Gandalf is greater in might, even than Iarwain.

Bombadil may be Eru himself in the human form, with Gandalf being his greatest servant. If not, then what is Bombadil, & how could you comprehend his power, given that it would take the entire force of Mordor & Sauron to bring him down?

[Knight of Gondor]

I don't know that I accept Iarwain as Eru. Eru was mightier than Melkor himself; how could the powers of Mordor, mighty though they seemed to moral eyes, ever be sufficient to overcome such a power?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Bombadil may be Eru himself in the human form, with Gandalf being his greatest servant. If not, then what is Bombadil, & how could you comprehend his power, given that it would take the entire force of Mordor & Sauron to bring him down?

Bombadil is not Eru...

Originally Posted by Letter #144

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

and:

Originally Posted by Letter #153, to Peter Hastings, who "cited the description of Bombadil by Goldberry: 'He is.' Hastings said that this seemed to imply that Bombadil was God"

As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being too serious, besides missing the point. (Again the words used are by Goldberry and Tom not me as a commentator). You rather remind me of a Protestant relation who to me objected to the (modern) Catholic habit of calling priests Father, because the name father belonged only to the First Person, citing last Sunday's Epistle – inappositely since that says ex quo. Lots of other characters are called Master; and if 'in time' Tom was primeval he was Eldest in Time. But Goldberry and Tom are referring to the mystery of names.

[Hammerhand]

Do you think it is possible that Bombadil was one of the other valar perhaps? Aule or Orome for example?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

Do you think it is possible that Bombadil was one of the other valar perhaps? Aule or Orome for example?

I, for one, don't. To me, Tolkien was specific enough when he stated that Tom was an intended enigma. Were I to speculate: if we are referring strictly to the classes of beings we know from Ainulindale, then him being a vala is the most likely case; but it is altogether possible that, "historically" speaking, there might have been other classes of rational beings, different from the ones we know of.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I agree- not everything can be pigeonholed; and Tolkien *never* tells us that the classes of beings he names for us are exhaustive. He called Tom the 'spirit of the countryside', and that's as much as we can know.

BTW, I really can't square Tom, the ultimate tree-hugger, with "but still [my Dwarves] will have need of wood" Aule.

How mighty were the greatest Dwarves in Middle Earth? Where could you rank Durin with say, Aragorn? Is it possible that Bombadil is akin to Dwarves?

[Knight of Gondor]

I also vote bumping the Witchking up a few notches, since Gandalf feared that he was equally matched (if not somewhat weaker) than the Witchking.