Morgoth's Curse: Self-sustaining or inescapeable? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

High King Fingolfin · 08-06-2007, 11:21 AM

This is a subject that has been nagging at me ever since I read CoH. Was the curse that Morgoth laid on Hurin and his family fulfilled entirely through Morgoth's malice, or was it from their own pride and many flaws? In other words, could they have escaped Morgoth's curse had they acted dfferently, or was their path inevitable from the moment that Morgoth cursed them? I have not been able to decide myself, but I would like to see what everyone else thinks.

***Mithadan*** · 08-06-2007, 03:31 PM

Well, it certainly wasn't just bad luck...

The concept of the curse being inescapable almost implies that it was sentient, lurking about the children and family of Hurin, looking for ways to wreak havoc. And perhaps it is; we have seen the concept of evil will separate from its "maker" almost conciously influencing events before in Tolkien's works. Namely the Ring.

Yet the Curse tended to slumber, almost as if it had little effect if not consciously attended to by Morgoth. Some of this may be attributable to Turin's sojourn in Menegroth, begind Melian's veil. Morgoth's ability to pierce the Veil was limited, and perhaps so too was the Curse impeded. Yet it cannot be said that it had no effect on Turin. Witness the killing of Saeros. Perhaps even though Turin was somewhat protected by Melian's veil, the Curse was nonetheless bound to him in a corporeal sense.

I think its also worthy of note that Tolkien, in several places, implies that Men alone of the speaking races possesses free will. I have, in the past suggested that Men were free of fate due to Eru's gift, except when men interact with Elves or the people of the Valar. Then "fate" can direct or at least influence the acts of men. Examine the nature of the way the Curse had its effect. In some ways, the Curse seemed to advance Morgoth's own purposes, resulting in the fall of not just Nargothrond but also Doriath. Fate or intent? Did Morgoth merely set the Curse free to work its evil (fate) or did he guide it (when he could) to advance his agenda?

I realize that, like the Elves, I am saying both Nay and Yea here, but there is quite a lot to chew on.

Good post High King.

FeRaL sHaDoW · 08-07-2007, 12:58 AM

"The doom lies in yourself, not in your name."
Gwindor to Túrin

but then again he did have bad luck and his family all died.

09-04-2007, 08:12 AM

I am confused as to the exact nature of the Curse. Of course we know that through the Ring, a device, Sauron used to corrupt the peoples of Middle-earth. When Gwindor tells Turin that the doom or curse lies within himself and not his name, I assume that would mean his spirit, correct? What exactly is the Curse which Morgoth sets about Turin and his kin? I do not see how Morgoth had the capacity to pass a spiritual Curse upon that house without the means of some physical device like Sauron's Ring. That physical device must come into contact with the physical Being(s). How is Morgoth able to marr a family even further than what he is normally able to through the corruption of ME? Did the seat which bound Hurin actually possess a mode or a device through which Morgoth could transport his Curse (only through the presence of Hurin?).

The seat high on the peaks of Thangorodrim seem more like a Judgment Seat reserved for Hurin, whereby Morgoth would inherit the right or power to judge Hurin and his house, thereby placing a curse upon Hurin because he had been mocked. Morgoth's judgment of right and wrong is perversed and crooked, so it would seem natural for Morgoth to place a Curse on that house.

I am confused on this subject. Any further thoughts?

Best regards

08-06-2007, 11:21 AM	#1
High King Fingolfin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Where the Wargs thrive, a.k.a. Madison, WI Posts: 437	Morgoth's Curse: Self-sustaining or inescapeable? This is a subject that has been nagging at me ever since I read CoH. Was the curse that Morgoth laid on Hurin and his family fulfilled entirely through Morgoth's malice, or was it from their own pride and many flaws? In other words, could they have escaped Morgoth's curse had they acted dfferently, or was their path inevitable from the moment that Morgoth cursed them? I have not been able to decide myself, but I would like to see what everyone else thinks. __________________ "Outside of a Warg, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a Warg, it's too dark to read." - Wargo Marx Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 08-06-2007 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Mod edited title spelling as desired

08-06-2007, 03:31 PM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	Well, it certainly wasn't just bad luck... The concept of the curse being inescapable almost implies that it was sentient, lurking about the children and family of Hurin, looking for ways to wreak havoc. And perhaps it is; we have seen the concept of evil will separate from its "maker" almost conciously influencing events before in Tolkien's works. Namely the Ring. Yet the Curse tended to slumber, almost as if it had little effect if not consciously attended to by Morgoth. Some of this may be attributable to Turin's sojourn in Menegroth, begind Melian's veil. Morgoth's ability to pierce the Veil was limited, and perhaps so too was the Curse impeded. Yet it cannot be said that it had no effect on Turin. Witness the killing of Saeros. Perhaps even though Turin was somewhat protected by Melian's veil, the Curse was nonetheless bound to him in a corporeal sense. I think its also worthy of note that Tolkien, in several places, implies that Men alone of the speaking races possesses free will. I have, in the past suggested that Men were free of fate due to Eru's gift, except when men interact with Elves or the people of the Valar. Then "fate" can direct or at least influence the acts of men. Examine the nature of the way the Curse had its effect. In some ways, the Curse seemed to advance Morgoth's own purposes, resulting in the fall of not just Nargothrond but also Doriath. Fate or intent? Did Morgoth merely set the Curse free to work its evil (fate) or did he guide it (when he could) to advance his agenda? I realize that, like the Elves, I am saying both Nay and Yea here, but there is quite a lot to chew on. Good post High King. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

08-07-2007, 12:58 AM	#3
FeRaL sHaDoW Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 232	"The doom lies in yourself, not in your name." Gwindor to Túrin but then again he did have bad luck and his family all died. __________________ God created night, but man created darkness....

09-04-2007, 08:12 AM	#4
Meneltur Guest Posts: n/a	I am confused as to the exact nature of the Curse. Of course we know that through the Ring, a device, Sauron used to corrupt the peoples of Middle-earth. When Gwindor tells Turin that the doom or curse lies within himself and not his name, I assume that would mean his spirit, correct? What exactly is the Curse which Morgoth sets about Turin and his kin? I do not see how Morgoth had the capacity to pass a spiritual Curse upon that house without the means of some physical device like Sauron's Ring. That physical device must come into contact with the physical Being(s). How is Morgoth able to marr a family even further than what he is normally able to through the corruption of ME? Did the seat which bound Hurin actually possess a mode or a device through which Morgoth could transport his Curse (only through the presence of Hurin?). The seat high on the peaks of Thangorodrim seem more like a Judgment Seat reserved for Hurin, whereby Morgoth would inherit the right or power to judge Hurin and his house, thereby placing a curse upon Hurin because he had been mocked. Morgoth's judgment of right and wrong is perversed and crooked, so it would seem natural for Morgoth to place a Curse on that house. I am confused on this subject. Any further thoughts? Best regards