High Elves and the Balrogs

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!). Why is this? Were the maia that joined Morgoth extremely weak that a high elf can slay them? I don't understand because Balrogs are great spellcasters and just totally on a different level. Would this mean that someone like Galadriel could take on that Balrog in Moria even without Nenya? 'Cause it would make sense since she's a high elf and the greatest next to Feanor. And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!).

Why would it be so unbelievable? After all, Fingolfin was able to face in single combat even Melkor, and inflict of him a permanent wound. Feanor alone fought undismayed for long with several balrogs.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

Myths Transformed estimates that they would be reduced to impotence (or at least those that practiced procreation).

Originally Posted by Orcs, Myths Transformed, HoME X

In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

[Galin]

Also, Ecthelion was not (likely) to slay three Balrogs in my opinion.

Tolkien seemed to be thinking of reducing the number of Balrogs to at most seven. The earlier numbers of The Book of Lost Tales (and specific numbers killed therein) refer to an earlier version of Balrogs.

High numbers persisted even in the texts of the early 1950s. The timing according to Christopher Tolkien (despite that he can't be certain about it) seems to be: Tolkien wrote Annals of Aman (AAm) and Grey Annals (GA) at about the same time, early 1950's (lots of Balrogs in both). JRRT expresses in a later letter that he intends to get copies made of copyable material and has copies made by a typist, of AAm, LQS, GA (with carbon copies), dating about 1958. He makes a marginal note on a typescript of AAm -- he revises 'host' of Balrogs and explains the reduced numbers in the note.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Why would it be so unbelievable? After all, Fingolfin was able to face in single combat even Melkor, and inflict of him a permanent wound. Feanor alone fought undismayed for long with several balrogs

Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Well, you know, Gandalf was a Maia. He was killed in battling with just one Balrog. Maia are suppose to be above the Eldar (that is why it's so unbelievable).

The physical manifestation of a Balrog could obviously sustain damage (Gandalf uses the word 'smote' as in strike when speaking of how he defeated Durin's Bane); therefore, it is entirely possible for an Elf of Ecthelion's stature to defeat a Balrog, or more than one given favorable circumstances. Consider also that Ecthelion was an exceptional Noldo of Valinor in full flower of youth, whereas Gandalf, even as a Maia, was constrained in the mortal body of an old man (however vigorous). Remember as well that Morgoth himself was wounded badly by Fingolfin, and Gil-Galad and Elendil defeated Sauron, and one would have to admit that Morgoth and Sauron were indeed more powerful than a Balrog.

[Raynor]

When they realised they are facing a balrog, Gandalf deplored that he was already weary, from the fight with the orcs and his contest of magic at the door of the Mazarbul Chamber.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

It's also worth noting that none of the three survived the encounter.

aye thats a solid point, but what about Rog in the fall of Gondolin, apparently he and his fellows defeated a few of them there... it doesn't specify that they died via the Balrog.

I never really dwelled on the fact that all the key charcters that fought them died - Glorfindel died in a similar circumstance to Gandalf, in that he was dragged down. Ecthelion was already mortally wounded when he took on Gothmog, and died in the fountain with him - Nearly brought a tear to my eye reading that for the first time!

[Galin]

The Fall of Gondolin from The Book of Lost Tales concerns the early version of Balrogs.

Tolkien never updated this tale in long form beyond that which was published in Unfinished Tales. I see no great reason to assume a character named 'Rog' killed even one Balrog in the theoretical 'rest of' the version begun decades after The Book of Lost Tales was abandoned.

If there was to be no more than seven then the Balrogs arguably slain by Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf count for three. And probably some were to be slain in the War of Wrath.

[Boromir88]

Galin, already mentioned this, lets not mix two different periods of time here where Tolkien began altering and changing his Balrogs.

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs)~Gorthaur

I think this is where the 'unbelievability' is coming from. As when Tolkien first started writing about his Balrogs, they were an entire race of their own. There were 'armies' and 'hosts' of Balrogs and they were much weaker than what the Tolkien's 'final' Balrogs became.

I don't know when Tolkien decided to switch things around, but eventually he made the Balrogs corrupted Maiar and as Galin remarks reduces their number down to at the very most...seven (HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed).

So, the time you are talking about when Ecthelion slew 3 of them, was an earlier time when Tolkien had the idea that the Balrogs were an entire race of their own (not Maiar) and therefor far less powerful. That might be where part of the 'unbelievability' is coming from, because I agree that it would be unbelievable for any elf to slay 3 Maiar!

However, it's not so unbelievable that an Elf could take down a Balrog. Tolkien wrote a story where the lines of 'power' always mix and mingle together and there is no clear 'hierarchy' of who is more powerful. And we have to remember when we generally say that 'Elves are more powerful than Men' that doesn't mean we can assume that every elf is more powerful than every man. Just as I dont think one can assume every Maiar is equal in power, and every Balrog was equal in power. Just keep that in mind too, we're not dealing with a strict, rigid 'hierarchy of power,' but one that is just all meshed together. That is why Elves end up slaying Maiar, and Hobbits end up doing serious damage to a giant kick butt spider...etc.

Lets also not forget that Ecthelion and Glorfindel are extremely powerful Elves in their own right. They were Noldor Elven Lords, not your simple ordinary elf. They had also both seen the light of the two trees, and any elf who did, we are told grew in power.

Now if a Man slew a Balrog (even a 'great man' such as Turin) I would say that is 'unbelievable.' As it appears to take more than being a skilled and powerful fighter to slay a Balrog. Gandalf was locked in a 10 day battle with Durin's Bane and there was more than two foes who were crossing swords (or in this case one with a whip and the other with a sword):

'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark...'

'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him...'

and...

'Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough?'

(All quotes come from The White Rider).

This was a 10-day struggle amongst two Maiar. And as Gandalf says to the Fellowship 'This is a beyond any of you.' (Aragorn and Boromir are no chumps when it comes to 'fighters' amongst mortals). Gandalf was already weary, however in this case he could use his full Maiar powers. Gandalf was just restricted from showing his true form/powers when there were Elves and Men around...well here he's battling a Balrog under and on top of mountains. There is no one around to see it, and as I think is clear from Gandalf's description, he let loose his Maiar abilities in this great 'Battle of the Peak.'

I guess the bottomline here I'm trying to get at, is it's not so unbelievable for some of the most powerful Elves around (Glorfindel and Ecthelion) to slay a Balrog...as these two chaps were right up there in that 'greatest elf' category. However, if a mortal slew a balrog, than I would say that is rather unbelievable, because I think it takes a certain power that mortals don't possess.

[obloquy]

Only three Balrogs need to exist: Durin's Bane, Gothmog, and Glorfindel's Bane. These are the three that receive solid canonicity by being included in writings that Tolkien himself saw published. Tolkien reduced their early multitude, as has been mentioned, and indicates that he might have removed all but just these three principals ("3 or at most 7"). This adjustment ought to be seen as an implemented change, since none of the texts that conflict with it were ever published by Tolkien himself, and were, per his written intention, obsolete with particular regard to balrog numbers. The Fall of Gondolin has almost no bearing on balrog discussion.

Edit: it occurs to me that Gothmog may not have had his canonicity cemented as the other two, but I don't have time right now to check. In any case, there's no indication that Tolkien intended Gothmog's fate to change.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?

She was high in magic.. but i don't know what Galadriel would have been like with a blade :P And they were all fought with weapons i believe

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien never updated this tale in long form beyond that which was published in Unfinished Tales. I see no great reason to assume a character named 'Rog' killed even one Balrog in the theoretical 'rest of' the version begun decades after The Book of Lost Tales was abandoned.

Ok so the later Balrogs were of a different breed perhaps, i know nobody has said it, but would that make Gothmog less powerful than Durins Bane? High Captain as he was, he was surely one of the first Balrogs...or is it that the other Balrogs of the time were not Maiar? or maybe that they were just not as powerful? I don't know, and alot of you chaps have more knowledge than i on this.

On Rog, he was reputed in the book to be the "strongest" of the Lords of Noldor in Gondolin, strong in strength? or magic? I think it is possible to assume strength, seeing as he isn't really a key player in Middle Earths history. Yet, though he alone might not have slain a Balrog, his people the "Hammer of Wrath", a medley of the most skilled Noldor were responsible for multiple Balrog casualties.

This is confusing me!

We have Fingon fending off one, and then being defeated by the two. Feanor who held his ground against several until he was overcome. Other counts of High Elves of the first degree being slain. Yet others were successful against one alone; Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf.

To reiterate Fingolfin's achievements... he eternally wounded Morgoth, one of the most powerful Valar. So it is possible to say that by fighting capabilities, one can impair or defeat a Maiar... maybe even a Valar if they're that hardcore? Taking into consideration Fingolfin's status, Noldorin King of immense fighting skill (ranked above Feanor in valour) and undoubtedley in magic also.

The slaying of Sauron, by Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur.. though he didn't actually completely decease... it's possible to admit he was defeated...

I remain inquisitive on the subject and eagerly await the shedding of light from other members!

[Boromir88]

So would Galadriel not need to fear the Balrog of Moria, then (besides the necromancer in dol guldur)?~Gorthaur

Well it's not so much that Galadriel would not fear a Balrog (I think even Gandalf displayed fear towards Durin's Bane). As no matter how powerful you are, a Balrog is a tough nut to crack and not a foe anyone would look forward to facing.

But, if you are asking would Galadriel be able to slay a Balrog, I'd say she's got a pretty good shot. As Galadriel is tough in her own regards...not just 'magically' but also as far as fighting abilities go too:

'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years...and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'~Unfinished Tales; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

and...

'Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in the defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.'~ibid

So, I would say Galadriel was someone who also knew how to use a sword. Giving her a 'pretty good shot' in my opinion.

[obloquy]

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

I really can't see Galadriel being a physical threat to a Balrog, it may well appear sexist but i just don't think she's tough enough. She may well be dubbed "greatest" but that cannot apply to her physical capabilities - i think it more suits her wisdom and "magic" being that she was always the first to spot the bad egg, as it were.

By going by that concept, could Luthien defeat a Balrog? one doubts it further still. Though she did manage to seduce Morgoth into a state of reverie... granted! but i still do not doubt a Balrog would dismember her... or Galadriel for that matter.

She may have been prominent with her athletic capabilities in her youth, but running fast and jumping are abit out of context methinks :P lol.

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but Lúthien could surely sing Balrog to death (cf. Finrod's duel with Sauron) or something like that. That's something I can imagine accordingly to Gandalf's "I had to use the Command Word" escapade by the door, and here I think Lúthien might have been in a bit of advantage against Gandalf, as he was weary and she, unless after a long journey through Angband or something like that, would be full of youth and so, it will be similar situation as with the Werewolves.

About Galadriel... well, that's actually something I can't indeed imagine, but I think we have to accept that she was capable of fighting. And I am sure she will be at least close to defeating a Balrog by sword, something like Fingolfin vs. Morgoth, like seven blows, avoiding his slashes, and maybe even in some unexpected moment hitting him, piercing his heart or whatever and... the end. Yes, I cannot imagine her doing that and I strongly disagree with drawing an amazon-like picture of Galadriel, but somehow, she surely would do that. That we cannot imagine it is our problem, not hers.

So we're all in agreement that no she-elf could possibly threaten a Balrog? :P lol
She'd probably be late for the duel anyway!

lol, well i suppose there would be a different concept to fighting to what we know with the addition of "magic" and species. No average human woman has ever been given any recognition, which can only mean that Elvish women were as competant as the men.. or close to, as regards physical exertion. Therefore, saying Galadriel was as we have defined her, i see no reason why she wouldn't be able to defend herself aptly - i just find it hard to believe, mainly because of the real world... and because she isn't depicted so much as a fighter, but more of a wise and majestic speciman

[obloquy]

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

[Boromir88]

Hammerhand, you are right that Galadriel isn't shown to be a fighter, especially by the Third Age. But I think the statement from UT of her being a match for both 'loremasters and athletes of the Eldar' goes to show that not only does she have 'mental toughness' but she is also physically strong.

Also take into consideration this...

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come himself. Though grievous harm was down to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the hose of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age

Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself. Galadriel may not be imagined as much of a fighter (since there isn't much said about her actually 'fighting.') But she was an extremely powerful Elf (the most powerful of the Third Age and one of the greatest period). So, she just wasn't some wise lady that gave out gifts and read people's thoughts.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not only was Galadriel powerful enough to go into Dol Guldur and clean out all the 'evil' done by Sauron, but she was so powerful, Lorien would only be overcome unless Sauron had came there himself.

Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I always took these to imply the power of Galadriel's ring, not her own. I had the same understanding when reading her statement that "[not] only by singing amid the trees, nor even by the slender arrows of elven-bows, is this land of Lothlorien maintained and defended against its Enemy".

I agree. Nevertheless, that does not undermine what Boro said about Galadriel. She was surely capable and powerful - in whatever means you think. I also think no one contested this. I think the only problem we have with her is that it's hard to imagine her with a sword (and in armor???) fighting against, let's say, even Fëanor's hordes at Alqualondë (hmm... was that even canonical? I think this is but one of the versions in UT, from whose no one knows which one to choose as granted...) Though, as I said, we have evidence that she was mighty even in that, as Boro said, so it's our limited imagination in which the problem lies.

[Boromir88]

Well Raynor, I think Nenya is part of 'that power' that dwells in Lorien. As the Elven Rings were made to sustain and protect against the 'weariness of time.' But if you are saying that Galadriel's power (and the 'power' that dwells in Lorien) is solely due to Nenya, than I would disagree. As Galadriel was already one mighty and great elf before getting Nenya.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Tolkien never qualified the greatness of his major heroes. Galadriel's and Luthien's greatness is the same as Feanor's, and any reservations about their fighting prowess are baseless. You say you don't think Galadriel is tough enough: why not? Based on what evidence in Tolkien's writing?

Balrogs are not powerful because they're as big as a dinosaur and pump iron in their free time. They're powerful, like Sauron and Gandalf, because they have potent spirits. Gandalf was, for all physical purposes, a bent old man, fully incarnate. Yet his spiritual potential was greater than that of Durin's Bane and he prevailed. Incidentally, this spiritual arena is exactly that in which even those who attempt to qualify Galadriel's greatness admit she must excel.

In short: yes, it is merely sexist and foolish to say you "just can't picture" Galadriel in combat.

No need to be offensive mate - don't forget Galadriel isn't actually real. My inability to picture Galadrial as a warrior comes from todays image as a woman not being a fighter, they still don't let women into the infantry... Also, never to my knowledge, which isn't law, has Galadriel ever fought an enemy with a lance in her hand, so to speak. I don't doubt her capability in mind, as we have already seen and heard from various people and book references. That is where i struggle to see Galadriel as a warrior.

To say i'm folly i think is quite rude, i shall refrain from retaliating, i didn't come here for an argument, i prefer debate.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But if you are saying that Galadriel's power (and the 'power' that dwells in Lorien) is solely due to Nenya, than I would disagree. As Galadriel was already one mighty and great elf before getting Nenya.

I agree. However, I doubt that Galadriel "alone" would come close to the same results if she didn't have her ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come himself. Though grievous harm was down to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the hose of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age

The fact that Celeborn led the host of Lorien while Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur has always suggested to me that she was wielding 'magic', while Celeborn led the physical assault.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

The fact that Celeborn led the host of Lorien while Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur has always suggested to me that she was wielding 'magic', while Celeborn led the physical assault.

Eexactly. Nevertheless, it's a wonderful demonstration of her power...

But let's not forget our main topic. I think, as much as Galadrielist I am, you can see her not expressing any fear of the balrog of Moria when she hears the news (actually, I sort of suspect her of knowing more than she says, and so maybe even knowing about the presence of the balrog), quite differently from Celeborn, for whom it's not only a new information, but also a thing that scares him, or at least that's how I always took it.

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel

"Alas!" said Celeborn. "We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria."

[Morthoron]

In regard to Galadriel throwing down the walls and laying bare the pits of Dol Guldur, this is more extraordinary in the fact that she accomplished the feat after the One Ring was destroyed; thus, I would think the power that demolished Dol Guldur was innate and not necessarily due to her wielding the ring Nenya, whose power would have waned after the One Ring's destruction.

[Boromir88]

Raynor, with regards to protecting Lothlorien I would say she had the aid of Nenya. As that was the purpose of the Elven Rings. However, the Elven Rings were not made to enhance it's bearers power, so any display of power 'or magic' of Galadriel I would say was all her own ability. As the Elven Rings did not lend out power boosts in the way the One Ring was made to do.

Just as I would argue the benefit of Gandalf bearing Narya was not in giving him extra power to fight the Balrog, but assisting him in his 'weariness,' exactly as Cirdan said the Ring was for:

'Take this ring, Master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.'~Appendix B: Tale of Years; The Third Age

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Exactly. Nenya was in the first place the thing that caused Lórien not to wither; and as Sam felt it:

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel

Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say, if you take my meaning. It's wonderfully quiet here. Nothing seems to be going on, and nobody seems to want it to. If there's any magic about, it's right down deep, where I can't lay my hands on it, in a manner of speaking.
(...)
Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away.

It was also what kept its borders safe - I'd also think that for example the white mist that covered Eorl's ride to keep them secret and safe from Dol Guldur was the work of the Ring.

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales; The Ride of Eorl

(...) but other powers also were at work. For when at last the host drew near to Dol Guldur, Eorl turned away westward for fear of the dark shadow and cloud that flowed out from it, and then he rode on within sight of Anduin. Many of the riders turned their eyes thither, half in fear and half in hope to glimpse from afar the shimmer of the Dwimordene, the perilous land that in legends of their people was said to shine like gold in the springtime. But now it seemed shrouded in a gleaming mist and to their dismay the mist passed over the river and flowed over the land before them.
Eorl did not halt. "Ride on!" he commanded. "There is no other way to take. After so long a road shall we be held back from battle by a river-mist?"
As they drew nearer they saw that the white mist was driving back the glooms of Dol Guldur, and soon they passed into it, riding slowly at first and warily; but under its canopy all things were lit with a clear and shadowless light, while to left and right they were guarded as it were by white walls of secrecy.
"The Lady of the Golden Wood is on our side, it seems ,” said Borondir.

But I don't think Nenya gifted Galadriel with much power of her own, as Boro suggested. For it was not the purpose of the Elven Rings, as Elrond says to Glóin:

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

[The Three] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Not only was Galadriel (beside Feanor) the greatest of the Noldor, in fact, but she was also listed with Feanor and Luthien as one of the greatest of all the Eldar.

Where is the evidence of Tolkien stating this? It's hard to believe because he'd always seem to downplay Galadriel while he augments much of Elrond's power.

Raynor, with regards to protecting Lothlorien I would say she had the aid of Nenya. As that was the purpose of the Elven Rings. However, the Elven Rings were not made to enhance it's bearers power, so any display of power 'or magic' of Galadriel I would say was all her own ability. As the Elven Rings did not lend out power boosts in the way the One Ring was made to do.

But I don't think Nenya gifted Galadriel with much power of her own, as Boro suggested. For it was not the purpose of the Elven Rings

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin. Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...). Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right? For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien? And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.

[Raynor]

I believe obloquy is referring to HoME XII:

Originally Posted by The Shibboleth

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.
...
These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.*
...
* Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

[obloquy]

Yes, thanks Raynor. The quote obviously refers to a time before the exodus of the Noldor (Feanor and Galadriel were still "of Valinor"), so we know that it even includes the Vanyar. The wording leaves room--possibly but not necessarily--for Elwe somewhere below Luthien. Besides him, I can think of no other candidates in Beleriand.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Are you sure? I just find it impossible for Galadriel to have cast such potent spells without giving some credit to her ring. She drove back the glooms of Dol Guldor and hid Eorl's hosts from Sauron himself across Anduin.

If you read what I wrote, then I was saying that particularly this one was probably coming from the Ring's power.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Her own brother, Finrod, couldn't even last against Sauron, yet she was able to contest him in many ways (reading his mind, creating the phial, etc...).

If you are suggesting "Finrod was a loser", then I have to strongly disagree. His contest with Sauron was not some stupid loss, quite the contrary, I believe we can sort of compare it to Fingolfin vs. Morgoth. Or Gandalf vs. Balrog when he was closing the door to Chamber of Mazarbul. And I doubt you would call Fingolfin a loser.
Nevertheless, what you said, for example the "reading mind" thing, does not need to have, I think, anything in common with the Ring itself. Quite the contrary, I think it's exactly the example of how powerful she was. After all, Galadriel is mentioned as the most powerful in mind right after Fëanor, and that's exactly what you see here. And yes, Finrod was therefore probably not as powerful as her - as all the Elves (but he was not a loser).

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Don't you find it strange that she was able to achieve all this in the 3rd age when she was able to openly use Nenya? I do not doubt her innate strength, after all, wasn't she schooled by Melian (maia of great power) herself for many years? She also learned much from Yavanna. But then she also asked Frodo, "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" -- which can only mean that the Three also enhanced the innate strength of their bearers. And Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right?

Just one note before start - Galadriel, as neither of the Elf lords, was not able to use the power of the Ring openly. Just rhetorics, I know - but let's not confuse it.

Okay. Now to the main point. What the Three do I already mentioned in the post before where I quoted Elrond, and I'm not going to return to it, it's all there. Just your claim now does not in any way contest it. The words "Did not Gandalf tell you that the Rings gave power according to the measure of their wearer?" mean no more and no less that the Rings give less power when a less powerful person wields them, greater power when a more powerful person wields them. Less powerful person can make a mosquito flee away from him, more powerful person can stop the Ringwraith. But it does not, as you deduce, based with no evidence, enhance the innate strength of their bearers. Galadriel, being a powerful elf, would access to much of Nenya's powers, right - that's okay. But these powers are for making, healing... whatever. Nothing about boosting own powers.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

For if the Three's powers were merely in preservation, then how come Rivendell lacked that spiritual, ethereal atmosphere that is so felt in Lothlorien?

Lórien is something else than Rivendell because a different person is it's - let's say, ruler. But surely you don't say that Rivendell didn't have its own atmosphere? It had, just a different one. I don't actually understand what are you going to say with this. The only difference could therefore stem from the Ringbearers' attitudes and personal aims. If for example a Balrog had an Elven Ring and wanted to use it to preserve his own realm, it would have also a different atmosphere: let's say burning fires and everlasting darkness. If the Witch-King did something like this, his realm would have been a moonlit freezing place full of fear. The same it is with the Rivendell-Lórien difference.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

And so that is why I think galadriel could hold her own against the balrog of Morgoth (lesser than Sauron) because she was one of the mighty (along with Finrod, Fingolfin, and Feanor) and in addtion: a great ring of power in her keeping.

I believe that surely she would be able to face the balrog, but because of her own strength in battle (whether physical or spiritual), Nenya has nothing to do with it. Galadriel could shroud Lórien in mist with Nenya to cover it from the Balrog descending from the mountains, but in battle, the Ring won't help her much. It was made for understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained - and surely nothing of that could be of any use in a duel.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I know the Balrogs were of the Maiar, but it seems unbelievable that a mere high elf like Ecthelion and Glorfindel could've slain them (more unbelievable is Echthelion who was able to slay 3 Balrogs!). Why is this? Were the maia that joined Morgoth extremely weak that a high elf can slay them? I don't understand because Balrogs are great spellcasters and just totally on a different level. Would this mean that someone like Galadriel could take on that Balrog in Moria even without Nenya? 'Cause it would make sense since she's a high elf and the greatest next to Feanor. And where do the spirits of the Balrog go when they die?

Perhaps wings weakened them, a physiological defect. After all, the energy involved in flapping them and flying must deflect from the energy/power available to produce fire and bat around arms.

[Lalaith]

No average human woman has ever been given any recognition

Hmm...I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but if you mean what I think you do, then let me say three words to you....Joan of Arc. Led a national army before she was seventeen...good enough?

Anyway, I wonder if part of the problem in these discussions isn't that they are taking place among people who are used to the logic of computer games. This weapon plus that armour plus so many power points and that experience level gives you strength to defeat this monster....
I'm not sure how useful this very logical, gaming-type viewpoint is to understanding Tolkien's world. It was a literary creation, which as many here have pointed out, underwent many changes over the years. So one minute you can have a High Elf defeating a Balrog in just a short battle, and in another, a mighty maia like Gandalf take a week to defeat one in underground combat.
Why - because it makes a good story, I suppose, and Tolkien was a storyteller.

But that is not to say that Tolkien's power hierarchies are not intriguing. How, I always wondered, did a mere Maia like Melian create a stronghold that could keep out Melkor, mightiest of the Valar? Because Tolkien willed it so, is the obvious answer, but still, it did always puzzle me....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Anyway, I wonder if part of the problem in these discussions isn't that they are taking place among people who are used to the logic of computer games. This weapon plus that armour plus so many power points and that experience level gives you strength to defeat this monster....
I'm not sure how useful this very logical, gaming-type viewpoint is to understanding Tolkien's world. It was a literary creation, which as many here have pointed out, underwent many changes over the years. So one minute you can have a High Elf defeating a Balrog in just a short battle, and in another, a mighty maia like Gandalf take a week to defeat one in underground combat.

I thought about that too, though I think in this discussion it was not as evident from the start, so I didn't bring it up. When you look up, unless you yourself get dragged down in thinking in these "level lines", the question is well posed: the Balrogs are something - and that is clear enough from the Legendarium - completely qualitatively different from the Elves, they are Maiar, Ainur. This is evident and everyone who thinks about someone who was with Eru performing on the Music can be somehow puzzled about all this. I think it's about realizing the different story changes, as you said, and also - very importantly, I think - realizing what the "coming to flesh" in Arda means: that as they are once there, you are technically as capable of slaying a Balrog as a human (no high "lives" here - though he probably is tougher than common man, there are mainly other things that prevent you from killing him). I saw the "game-thinking" problem emerging in many different threads, but particularly in this case I think our problems lie somewhere else. Good you brought it up, though, as it allows people to realize if they are thinking like that, preventing possible misunderstandings.

[Lalaith]

realizing what the "coming to flesh" in Arda means:

Yes, absolutely, I think that's a very interesting point. Did Gandalf's corporeal form, as an old man, lay "heavier" on him than Melian's, do you think, despite the fact that she bore a child while a physical, Middle-Earth presence?
The Valar and the Maia took physical forms while in Valinor, also. Were these forms somehow different to those they took when not there? Is there anything in HoME about this?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Yes, absolutely, I think that's a very interesting point. Did Gandalf's corporeal form, as an old man, lay "heavier" on him than Melian's, do you think, despite the fact that she bore a child while a physical, Middle-Earth presence?

Well, I am not a female, so I cannot judge whether it's more exhausting for the body to give a birth to a child or not to, but be much more aged.

Nevertheless, Melian, I believe, had her "Valinorean" form on her (cf. below) when she met Elwë(is this where your train of thoughts has been going?), so maybe here is the answer to what you wondered about her powers like the Girdle and so on. Also, she was not intentionally bound by the body - that was her own body as she chose it (unlike the Istari, who were given it to reduce their own powers not to contest Sauron by force) or even the Balrogs, who were in fact "forced to hold Melkor's standards", so to say.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The Valar and the Maia took physical forms while in Valinor, also. Were these forms somehow different to those they took when not there? Is there anything in HoME about this?

As I foreshadowed earlier, I believe that surely they were different; as mentioned above at least with the Istari who took the forms of old men for their journey to Middle-Earth, but surely were not like that back there. The difference would be that probably mostly, in ME the Maiar were limited in their forms - in Valinor they could take on whatever form they wish (the one they chose when coming down to the world). The "dark" Maiar, like the Balrogs, or even Sauron later, as it is well known after some time lost their ability to change their forms and literally degraded as "imprisoned" in the flesh.

I'm not much of a HoME-runner, so to say, but considering the appearance in Valinor, at least I remember in UT Gandalf (Olórin) is mentioned:

Originally Posted by Istari

And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council

and in the Silmarillion, resp. Valaquenta:

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

(emhasise mine) Taking in mind the context of the latter, I'd say the form of Elf refers to Olórin during his stay at Valinor, and not Middle-Earth. The interesting thing is that he was "clad in grey", still, on both sides of the Sea. I'd also like to see what happened when he returned at the end of the Third Age: if he kept his form of Gandalf the White, or changed into something else (Olórin the Gray, Olórin the White...).

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Nevertheless, Melian, I believe, had her "Valinorean" form on her (cf. below) when she met Elwë

I doubt she retained her cloak-like body after felling in love with Thingol. In Myths Transformed, it is said:

Originally Posted by Orcs

...by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force.

However, more to the point:

Originally Posted by Of the ruin of Doriath, Silmarillion

For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwe Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Iluvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I'd also like to see what happened when he returned at the end of the Third Age: if he kept his form of Gandalf the White, or changed into something else (Olórin the Gray, Olórin the White...).

I don't think he had any reason to keep his embodied, severely limiting form, other than sentimental reasons