Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
06-29-2007, 05:45 PM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Mordor
Posts: 150
|
Morgoth and Doriath
I don't understand why Morgoth didn't just invade the Kingdom of Menegroth. It wasn't like Melian was ultra powerful. Besides, an army of Balrogs and a couple of Orcs and even Glaurung could breached inside Dorith. Melian wouldn't be able to stay the Balrogs. She got lucky with Ungoliant..
__________________
I am Annatar, the Lord of Gifts. |
06-29-2007, 05:59 PM | #2 |
Odinic Wanderer
|
What do you mean by "she got lucky with Ungoliant" ?
I doubt that Glaurung would be able to pass the gridle of Melian, in fact the only one I am sure could do so is Morgoth. Melian just seem like a very powerful Maia. She mannaged to lift the spell of Morgoth from Hurin and that does not seem like an easy task, I doubt that any other could have done it. (amongst the Noldor and Edain in Beleriand) I only remember two ever passing the gridle and that was Beren which Melian predicted would do so and then Carcharoth, but I don't think that Carcharot would have been able to do so with out the Silmaril. Maybe a host of Balrogs could have entered, but I doubt that Morgoth would risk an assault has he would have had very little knowledge about the power of Doriath. |
07-01-2007, 11:36 AM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
|
The question that arises though is did Morgoth even need to invade them. Despite everything, i do not think Morgoth was a fool. Look at it like this, Morgoth manipulated Feanor to cause him to raise his hand against Fingolfin and thus get banished. Afterward, Morgoth's lust led him to steal the silmarills knowing full well that it would cause Feanor to leave Valinor and rebel against the Valar. If the teleri were to follow Feanor, it would have sertved his purposes by having more rebel against the valar, but since they did not, his purposes were served even better.
The Noldor's slaughtering of the Teleri drove a wedge between the sons of Feanor and the kingdom of Thingol, thus causing the isolation of Doriath. Morgoth did not need to invade Menengroth to achieve his purposes, all he had to do was keep them out of the fight until his victory over the Noldor was guaranteed. In a war it is always a good strategy to let the neutrals remain neutral until your enemy is dealt with. You do not want to attack someone who is going to sit out anyway unless victory is guaranteed. It is even better to use someone else to do your dirty work for you, and this is what Melkor did by manipulating Hurin, and then setting off the snowball that would lead to the dwarven attack. He also knew that when the girdle was broke, the sons of Feanor would have no choice but to take the silmarill from them by force. When you can get your enemies to fight eachother, you have no need to use your own manpower. |
07-01-2007, 12:19 PM | #4 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
In Myths Transformed, HoME X, we learn that Melkor's purpose became utter destruction. To that end, he was impeded by the Noldor (first and foremost), and secondly, by the Girdle. In that sense, he did need to destroy the girdle. I would also have issues with seeing Melkor as intently driving forward the disputes between the elves, or with the dwarves. He sown seeds, and they gave fruits, rather independently, as they did even after his death (as the last paragraph of the Silm. tells us
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
|
07-05-2007, 07:35 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: midway upon... in a forest dark
Posts: 975
|
Melkor is a good strategist, but he isn't the best. He did achieve to sow discord amongst the Noldor under the very nose of the Valar, and that for me is either a huge feat or the Valar were just too stupid. And the thing with Hurin and his kin. However I think there are things Melkor overlooked, like Beren and Luthien, and there are stuff that he didn't plan that just worked for him, like the Kinslaying of Feanor and the curse and other discords among the Noldor that followed.
He saw that he didn't need to attack Melian, as Melian did nothing to oppose him other than guard her realm, Melian was no threat to him. I mean, before the time of the Noldor the Elves of Doriath didn't go to open war or march against Angband. And what purpose would Melkor get? He probably foresaw the discord that shall follow the Kinslaying, as a proof that he still had a measure of wisdom. If he attacked Melian and Doriath that would be a good reason for the Doriath Sindar to forge an alliance with the Noldor even just for the sake of having a common great enemy, either if he attacked before or after the Noldor came, because I think that it would take a lot to destroy all the Sindar--he still had only orcs and no dragons till after the Noldor arrived.
__________________
|
07-05-2007, 08:56 PM | #6 |
Odinic Wanderer
|
You might be right that Morgoth did not fear Melian and Thingol and that they where no real threat to him, but I am confident that he would eventually seek to destroy Doriath with military force if it had stood long enough.
As I understand it Morgoth did not only wager war against those that where a threat to him, he sought to defeat and enslave the whole world and even thought Doriath could not challenge him it was too great to be ignored. |
07-06-2007, 12:18 PM | #7 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,591
|
I think Doriath was probably next on Morgoth's hit list by the time it fell, if for no other reason than he'd run out of other targets.
As for why he didn't do it before, he didn't really have an opportunity. There were several kingdoms in between him and Doriath.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
07-08-2007, 08:27 AM | #8 | |||
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
|
I think it's interesting that Morgoth did wage war against Doriath, as we see from the many battles over Dimbar, but still never dared to attack the Girdle.
We know that the Girdle could only be breached by someone of greater power than Melian. This rules dragons out and leaves Sauron and the Balrogs. Quote:
In the end, Morgoth would probably have had to break the Girdle by himself, but he was extremely reluctant to even leave Angband. I don't think he would have dared to, unless Doriath was the only realm left in all Beleriand. Morgoth basically restricted the power of Doriath to Doriath itself, to the effect that he didn't have to fear it anymore. This way he was able to delay the problem to whenever he felt the time had come to deal with it. A minor tangent: Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
07-08-2007, 09:45 AM | #9 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||
07-08-2007, 09:55 AM | #10 | |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
|
|
07-08-2007, 12:36 PM | #11 |
Odinic Wanderer
|
I never said that the silmaril increased his powers. . .it increased his furry no doubt.
What I ment was: Iif Carcharoth decided to go for a walk on a sunny afternoon, enjoying the lovely weather and the birds singing and he by chance eneded up at Doriath . . ..then I do not think that he could enter. There was only one time he could enter and that was when he had the silmaril in his stomache. . . .I belive that the fate quote referes as much to the fate of the silmaril and Beren as it does to Cacharot, or rather that these cannot be seperated. |
07-08-2007, 12:39 PM | #12 |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Fair enough, Rune, but what about the opposite situation? If I, for instance, happened to randomly swallow a Silmaril, and (evil as I am), went running randomly in the direction of Doriath looking for water to relieve the burning, but with no particular fate on me that I should enter that realm, would I manage to get through the girdle?
|
07-08-2007, 12:53 PM | #13 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||
07-08-2007, 12:58 PM | #14 | ||
Fading Fëanorion
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: into the flood again
Posts: 2,911
|
Quote:
Quote:
But this would mean, that by carrying a Silmaril alone a person obtains more power than Melian has. I mean, sure, the Silmarils contain the light of the two trees and were hallowed by Varda, but nevertheless they remain the work of only an Elf. I think Rikae is right by pointing out the "and". (edit: cross-posted like crazy) Last edited by Macalaure; 07-08-2007 at 01:01 PM. |
||
07-08-2007, 01:02 PM | #15 | ||
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
07-08-2007, 01:10 PM | #16 | ||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||||
07-08-2007, 01:13 PM | #17 | |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
|
|
07-08-2007, 01:18 PM | #18 |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ; judging otherwise would be an argument from ignorance. My answer is no.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
07-08-2007, 01:26 PM | #19 | |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
Of course, it is possible. It's also possible that a troop of hobbits with spears could defeat the fleet of Numenor - but I wouldn't bet on it. |
|
07-08-2007, 01:30 PM | #20 |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
As I stated, my position is that the quote cuts both ways. If you are arguing that only a single interpretation is valid, you need to provide that elusive qualifier.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
07-08-2007, 01:34 PM | #21 | |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
(I would say that's what makes them worth discussing, actually...) |
|
07-08-2007, 01:39 PM | #22 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
|
07-08-2007, 01:51 PM | #23 |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
|
07-08-2007, 02:44 PM | #24 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,509
|
I think Carcharoth's fate was wound inextricably with the Silmaril, yet so was Huan the hound's doom. Carcharoth was bred by Morgoth to be Huan's bane; therefore, the passage referring to Carcaroth's fate has the further inference of meeting Huan at last in mortal combat. Breaking the Girdle of Melian was due to the Silmaril, and Carcharoth's fate was to meet Huan in Doriath.
__________________
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
07-08-2007, 11:18 PM | #25 | |
Odinic Wanderer
|
Quote:
Anyways unless you are willing to bite of Berens hand and enter a mortal combat with Huan, then no :P Actually for me the main thing is that the faith of Arda rests in the silmarils and are bound to their faith, which means that when the fell beast Rikae swallows the silmaril she becomes a part of that faith. . . .if she was not already in advance. |
|
07-09-2007, 09:41 AM | #26 |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
IF you mean the fate of Arda, you may just be on to something there, Rune.
However, does this mean that Morgoth, having the Silmarils, could just stroll into Doriath any time he wanted? There is more to it that a simplistic "get a Silmaril, be more powerful than anybody" dynamic at play, I think. Maybe even a sense of the Silmarils themselves having, in a way, a will of their own, as the one ring does? Or not so much a will, but a destiny? Last edited by Rikae; 07-09-2007 at 09:45 AM. |
07-09-2007, 10:35 AM | #27 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
|
Quote:
|
|
07-09-2007, 01:45 PM | #28 |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
My point was that Melkor did not and could not have prepared the strife between the elves to the level of detail that was mentioned; he sowed seeds of evil, which later developed rather independently. As far as the strife between elves and dwarves, again, I see no evidence that Morgoth planned this through Hurin. Hurin was an instrument in furthering Morgoth's hatred for Men and Elves; the fact that the Nauglamir that he recovered proved later to be a cause of Doriath's demise was not and could not have been planned by Morgoth. The best that Hurin achieved inside the girdle, in accordance with what Morgoth planned, was to insult the king. But even that failed rather miserably, since the king restrained himself and Melian freed Hurin.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
07-09-2007, 06:03 PM | #29 | |
Odinic Wanderer
|
Quote:
I have never said that that you get more powerful by getting a Silmaril. . .you are making this up. |
|
07-09-2007, 08:36 PM | #30 | |||
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
Quote:
Raynor said: Quote:
Last edited by Rikae; 07-09-2007 at 08:41 PM. |
|||
07-09-2007, 09:15 PM | #31 |
Odinic Wanderer
|
very simple because Morgoth alone of the valar knew fear! He might have been mighty but Fingolfin alone wounded him, he would not have been able to take Doriath unharmed.
about Rainor's quote: Well, it does not say that the silmaril transfers the power to the holder. . .as I see it Carcharoth was an instrument used for bringing the silmaril to Doriath (and some other stuff). The reason Carcharoth can enter is not that he has become more powerful than Melian, but because the Faith of the Silmaril is greater than her enchantment. |
07-09-2007, 10:59 PM | #32 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
|
Quote:
|
|
07-10-2007, 02:34 AM | #33 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||
07-10-2007, 07:31 AM | #34 | |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
Not, of course, that Melian "won", but Doriath was successfully protected until she ceased to do so; and I agree with your post above - Morgoth wouldn't have ignored Doriath simply because it was no threat to him. I also had the impression Doriath was the target he intended to use Hurin against; though the ultimate course of events would not have been one he foresaw, that doesn't change his intent; and the fact that he would have to use such elaborate methods speaks in favor of Melian being very powerful indeed. Last edited by Rikae; 07-10-2007 at 07:45 AM. |
|
07-10-2007, 08:24 AM | #35 | ||
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Rikae; 07-10-2007 at 08:27 AM. |
||
07-10-2007, 08:53 AM | #36 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||
07-10-2007, 08:58 AM | #37 |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
But surely, if Doriath was indeed his primary target, his intent wasn't merely to annoy or insult Thingol and Melian, who he "hated and feared". I would argue that his intent was to create an opportunity for the possible destruction of Doriath; he could at least foresee that it would be Hurin's destination, and probably intended that Hurin would in some way betray it or break down its defenses, albeit not in the exact way he did.
The sentence you quoted is general and, by itself, implies he had no specific goal, but the previous lines make it clear that he did, and the last line doesn't deny that. Last edited by Rikae; 07-10-2007 at 09:13 AM. |
07-10-2007, 09:10 AM | #38 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 274
|
Quote:
__________________
He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said |
|
07-10-2007, 09:23 AM | #39 |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
We are going in circles. I am not saying that Melkor did not want to destroy Doriath - he wanted to destroy everything (including his minions, according to Myths Transformed) - , but what were his tools in this particular case: a specific plan or planting seeds of evil which develop on their own.
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
07-10-2007, 09:24 AM | #40 |
Mellifluous Maia
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth
Posts: 3,489
|
(in reply to Morwen)
By the fact that Morgoth "sought most" to set Hurin against Thingol and Melian. (Not that he was unhappy to also learn the location of Gondolin!) I'm not claiming that Morgoth planned events to the last detail; I would assume he expected only that he was sending someone who would make his way into Doriath with evil intent. Actually, though, it would seem more likely that one of the Valar would have enough foresight to know events would occur as they did, than that he would randomly send Hurin out and hope for the best (worst), but something in between seems more likely. |
|
|