A complex Gollum

[avarerniliel]

Gollum has always been my favorite character, because he's one of the most interesting ones. Besides the fact that he's got multiple personality disorder though, and the ring corrupted him, I can't really think of any other reason to come up with the answer of why he is so complex. What's your opinion?

[onewhitetree]

Poor Gollum had a difficult childhood. However, notwithstanding the kicks and shuns he got throughout his life, an interesting aspect to look at is: Was it Fate? Is fate, especially when ruled by an all-knowing, all-loving Eru (like the Christian God), cruel? Or did Gollum bring his demise upon himself? Very complex indeed.

[avarerniliel]

Actually onewhitetree, I had written something similar in a fanfiction of mine about how Gollum's father always mistreated him, and his mother never took him to the doctor to get his larengitus and asthma treated. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Elven-Maiden]

Hmm... Gollum is a strange character. In a sense, he's both the hero and the villain of LotR, the last book in particular. His multiple personalities make me think of my cat, Rainbow. Don't ask...

My fav parts are these:
Sam: "But where have you been to- sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain?"
Gollum: "Sneaking, sneaking! Hobbits always so polite, yes. O nice hobbits! Smeagol brings them up secret ways that nobody else could find. Tired he is, thirsty he is, yes thirsty; and he guides them and he searches for paths, and they say sneak, sneak. Very nice friends, O yes my precious, very nice."
Sam: "I'm sorry, but where have you been off to?"
Gollum: "Sneaking!"

and

Sam: "What's the time? Is it today or tomorrow?"
Gollum: "It's tomorrow, or this was tomorrow when hobits went to sleep." [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Anarya SilverBranch]

I think Gollum has messed complex personality is beacause of one factor, the ring. When he talks he seems to be two beings, one is the ring and the other is his former self, thus the reason for the poor dude being so completely screwed.

[Airetauriel]

Originally posted by avarerniliel:
<STRONG>Gollum has always been my favorite character, because he's one of the most interesting ones. Besides the fact that he's got multiple personality disorder though, and the ring corrupted him, I can't really think of any other reason to come up with the answer of why he is so complex. What's your opinion?</STRONG>

I think Smeagol was seriously mentally ill before he ever even heard of the ring! And let's face it, anyone five hundred years old or more must have had some kind of personality crisis at some point. I think he is so complicated because, especially towards the end, he still retained some humanity even though the ring had driven him mad with desire. It is this clash that is so interesting. Remember also the effect the the long journey had on Frodo and Sam, with little food and water, short rests and long marches. It was worse for Gollum, as he had less food and water and didn't even sleep when he got the chance. That must have been a factor, surely?

I will swear....on the precious...
How dare you! It will hold you to it, Smeagol. One ring to rule them all....would you commit your promise to that? It will seek a way to twist you to it's will. But very well.
But we must swear on it, hobbitses.
No! All you want is to see it, and to touch it if you can, although you know it would drive you mad.....

(Very rough version, from memory, try not to correct me!)

Is it Gollum's promise to the ring that causes him to persuade the hobbits to take the pass of Cirith Ungol?? It's it the ring's will at work on him, because he commited his promise to something so dark? Or would it have been the ring's will to let the hobbits go to the black gate, for that they surely could not have passed without capture. So which was stronger - Gollum's desire to have the ring for himself, or his desire to keep it from the hands of Sauron?

'If any part of the old villain knew what the master intended to do there'll be trouble pretty quick, I'll warrant'

He's a quandary!

Airetauriel
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[onewhitetree]

Hmm. Did Gollum have mental issues before the Ring? I guess he did, since he murdered his cousin after just a glimpse of the shiny metal.

It rather leads me to believe that he was created evil and twisted in the first place unnaturally. Think about it. In the hobbit cultures, not too many bad apples were bred, and even then, they were not murderers. Ted Sandyman was about as bad as a hobbit gets, and he was pretty pansy compared to Gollum. Perhaps his being naturally perverse leveled out his fate; it made it more fair, so-to-speak.

Unfortunately, he did have that spark of humanity that showed up once in a blue moon, and grabbed the pity of everyone who witnessed his painfully slow demise. Did he really bring it upon himself? I, for one, do not think so. Gollum had a purpose from the moment he set foot in Middle Earth, and the "greater powers," be they good or evil, ruled his fate. Smeagol was just a pawn, played at first by the darker powers, but also played by the better side toward the end of his wretched life.

But still - did he deserve it? Of course, we are all human, all fallible, but what a curse! I don't think anyone, perhaps save Morgoth and Sauron (who really did bring
it upon themselves, having made conscious choices) suffered as much as Gollum.

[Birdland]

Great thread! I had never thought too much about Gollum's "issues" before now. (Don't get me wrong, though. Still feel that Gollum has to accept personal responsibility. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

I've just been re-reading "Riddles in the Dark", and even there, where Gollum isn't much more than a "Boogie Man" in a cave, Tolkien hints at his lost humanity.

There are many examples of an Everyman playing an heroic role in epic events in fiction, but Gollum may be the first Everyman Villain.

[Rosa Underhill]

There's one thing that keeps popping up in my mind and that is greed. Gollum's people were closer to the race of Men in behavior back in his youth (since Hobbits hadn't yet fully come into their own yet). I do think his on greed brought this all down upon him. He wanted the Ring upon first sight and it drove him to kill his dearest friend. (Recall that Deagol had the honor of being his love before the Ring nad perhaps, though less likely, before himself.)

By the end of his life, I think Gollum was begining to become more than what he had been before he saw the Ring. He was almost willing to sacrifice something for the sake of Frodo instead for the Ring and himself. But then Sam yelled at him and that truely set his resolve. We don't know if he would have done any different had Sam not yelled at him. (That was the only time I got mad at Sam, justified as he may have thought himself to be.)

Gollum is the fellow we truely have a love/hate relationship with. For me, Gollum is horrible reminder of what a man can do to himself and I can't help but pity him because I don't think he would have turned any different in the end. Ultimatly, it's not one's circumstances that makes one who he is, it's what one chooses to do with what one is given.

[avarerniliel]

Wow! Great responses, personally, I've always thought Gollum/Smeagol had issues before the ring, and the ring certainly enlarged them. Whether he is evil or not is also another question about him I have on my mind. As many of you have probably thought, he is the hero and the villain of LOTR, but is he evil? Certainly Tolkien put some evil in him, but was it justs Gollum's nature to be hideous? Even more hideous, certainly, than a cat named Rainbow. Any opinions?

[Daisy Sandybanks]

*sigh* Oh, now I feel very sorry for poor old Gollum. While I was reading the books, I detested Gollum for settng up poor Sam and Frodo like that, but, now that I think about it, it really wasn't Gollums falt, through out his entire life he was basically abused an mistreated. Though, I don't think I will ever be able to forgive him for what he did to Sam and Frodo.

[Thingol]

But then Sam yelled at him and that truely set his resolve. We don't know if he would have done any different had Sam not yelled at him. (That was the only time I got mad at Sam, justified as he may have thought himself to be.)

hehe, I feel the same.

[avarerniliel]

Tolkien sure did know what he was doing when he made Gollum!

Of all the characters in the trilogy, Gollum has the most depth, and he's the most mysterious. You're never quite sure whose side he's on, or what motivates him, but I would think that his biggest motivator is greed. Every time we see him, he's trying to twist the situation so that everything works out to his advantage. It seems likely that he never was remorseful for his actions, but rather planned to betray the hobbits all along.

Of course, that said, Gollum is essential to the quest; both in getting Sam and Frodo to the mountain and ultimately destroying the ring. But these actions were in spite of Gollum's plans, not as a result of them. Thus, I would place Gollum in the same category as Boromir. Both, I believe, started out no better or worse than anyone else, but both were ruined by greed and the lust for power.

[firncristwen]

Has it ever ocurred to you that Gollum, especially in Book IV, might have thought Frodo to be somehow Deágol (the cousin he murdered)? There he was, bearing something Smeágol greatly desired, someone kind, someone brave. And yet even "Stinky" doesn't want him to come to the same fate. So he is very complex indeed, because he might have in some way tried to make up for the terrible thing he did.

[avarerniliel]

You raise an excellent point ferncristwen! Perhaps Gollum felt regret for what he did and tried to avenge Deagol's death! There was a definite good and bad side to Gollum, that's certain, after all, it's not easy being the villain and the hero in the same story! He must have been exhausted mentally and physically when he died! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Elven-Maiden]

After Boromir dies, and Gandalf comes back, he the effect that Boromir was saved by his actions, saving the hobbits. Would Gollum have been also saved in destroying the Ring. Technically, he didn't want to destroy it, but if it weren't for him, the Ring would still be around. And if the Ring did truly control him, it wasn't his actions and will that caused him to act the way he did.

Did that make any sense to anyone?

[avarerniliel]

Crystal [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Jessica Jade]

Hmmm...In Fellowship, Gandalf says that he has hope that Gollum could be cured (of the evil that the Ring twisted him into) even though there was not much hope. Does he mean that Gollum, or Smeagol, used to be a good, kind-hearted jolly hobbit, similar to the likes of Frodo,Sam and the other Shire-folk? To me, it's always appeared that Gollum had a dark side, because even before he killed Smeagol, the book said that he always like to burrow under trees and dig tunnels and all, and that he didn't like the sun (sorry can't quote it right now)...so he was already darker than most hobbits. The murder of Deagol and possessing the ring caused his dark side to take over his good side-but, even though he became mostly evil thereafter, he still had pangs of regret and remorse at having given up his former life (like when he resents Bilbo's description of sun&daisys in the riddle game in The Hobbit, because it reminds him of days when he was less sneaky and evil).

Gollum is complex because he loves and hates the ring, loves and hates himself, and is extremely malicious yet sorrowful at what he has become...he is all those things at the same time. That's probably why those who meet him can't help but pity him.

[Rosa Underhill]

Hey, avarerniliel, where'd you get your quote? I wanna read more of that!

Even for a Stoor, Smeagol was an odd fellow in his day. He was always sneaking and quite coniving and, clearly, very greedy. (Why else would he murder his beloved cousin if not for his own selfish desires?)

That's really creepy to think that, in his mind, he might have seen Frodo as a way to make up for Deagol's death. But, by the time everyone gets to the Cracks of Doom, it's pretty clear that he's given up that notion and just wants his Precious back. Still, I'm glad that Frodo was willing to forgive him in the end.

[avarerniliel]

www.geocities.com/lotrthelostdiaries
It's the website I made with a friend about LOTR, it's really funny. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gorin Icearms]

I don't think Gollum was an evil twisted guy err thing, before Deagol found the ring. It just allowed Gollum's true nature to dominate any good or kindness that was in him forever.

[VanimaEdhel]

Diola i' seldarine! I thought that I was the only person who loved Gollum. I identify with him greatly (sympathy, not empathy), and really feel sorry for him [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] . The ring is/was far more powerful than many could have guessed, and he was a simple being...I do not believe he could help but to strangle Deogol! That's my opinion, anyway, as a 14-year old.
Rachel

[Joy]

Mae Govaenan. Elén sila lumenn' omentelvo VanimaEdhel. Welcome to the Barrow-Downs. Post often.

[Birdland]

The ring is/was far more powerful than many could have guessed, and he was a simple being...I do not believe he could help but to strangle Deogol!

I don't know about that. Frodo lived in Bilbo's house for years, knowing the Ring was there, and never once thought of strangling Bilbo. (Well, maybe once or twice when he started singing that "Road" song for the umpteenth time.)

I'm still of the opinion that Smeagol was a bit of a wanker all along, and the Ring just brought that out ten-fold.

[Rosa Underhill]

Gandalf said something about all this; something along the lines of the Ring magnifies what was done right before it's posession. Gollum killed Deagol right before he took it and the Ring corrupted him utterly and quickly whereas Bilbo began his ownership of the thing with compassion and was not corrupted much by the Ring until his later years.

Although, Gollum did posess the ring a lot longer than Bilbo (some five hundrend years i think) so maybe if Bilbo had it for that long too or longer because of his above said 'compassion', he might have turned out just like Gollum.
i wonder what would have happened if Gollum had been killed before he got to Mount Doom? What it Bilbo haden't accidently come across the ring in the caves? There would be no LOTR then i guess!

[Maltaharma]

Well, Ava, (buddy, pal, friend, classmate, and fellow cellist)you've certainly opened up an interesting question: was Gollum evil at the beginning? This also opens up a question about the personality of the ring. Let me clarify. Gollum killed his friend for the ring. Why? It's the same concept of love at first site. The second Gollum saw the ring, he was corrupted. Why? The ring saw him as a potential host. Therefore, Gollum is the ultimate symbol of corruption and victimizing. I think he is a universal symbol, and also represents the yin and yang, the two sides of human nature: his tendency towards evil, and yet his sense of good, represented in his apparent devotion towards Frodo, a fellow hobbit. We can't forget, afterall, that Gollum was a hobbit, and I think that's partly why he guided Sam and Frodo, besides the ring itself. All hail Gollum!

"A long, long time ago, I can still remember..." "When we had eleven breakfasts." "...that's not the point, Pippin..."-LOTR: The Lost Musical

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Maltaharma ]

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Maltaharma ]

[avarerniliel]

Maltaharma! You idiot! Half of those are my ideas on the Great Toaster Conspiracy! Gollum himself isn't the international symbol of evil and greed. The word gollum is, ironic, isn't it?