Is THIS how you imagined the vampires?

[sallkid]

This is Games Workshop's "Terror of Arnor" which has been officially confirmed to represent a vampire.

What i'd like to ask is this:

Is this how you imagined the vampires in tolkien?

(just to verify this is a substantially bigger model than those represnting the human-sized characters)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by sallkid

What i'd like to ask is this:

Is this how you imagined the vampires in tolkien?

No, no and again, no.

It is positively clear that this figure resembles more one certain thing: a balrog. Yes, a big, mean, nasty, black, winged Balrog...

*runs for cover*

But seriously, I always imagined the vampires in Tolkien just as giant bats, nothing more (cf. Lúthien's metamorphosis).

[Sir Kohran]

It looks too similar to a Fellbeast; it lacks individuality. Tolkien was quite vague on the vampires (probably intentionally), but I think he imagined something more unique than this.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

It looks too similar to a Fellbeast; it lacks individuality. Tolkien was quite vague on the vampires (probably intentionally), but I think he imagined something more unique than this.

Fellbeast in the movies, to be precise. It is very similar to it: you know, it evokes in me the thought of a monster from which, in the moment of its death, flies a sign reading "*1000 XP*". In the books, I quite liked the Fell beasts. And imagined them far nicer than these gray-something with big head.

Concerning the vampires, I think you are right about the "unique": they are some sort of enigma, like Beorn for example (when this thread is popular). A-ha! I know now! Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul was a vampire! Well, why not?

[Nogrod]

Far from it!

It has no resemblance to any believable vampire whatsoever...

It's kind of a messy get-together of vampires, bats, gargoyles, balrogs or whatever monsters you can think... in a scale that is only unbelievable and clumsy.

Just think of bat-like humans and you're on your way to true vampireship... it's a lot scarier anyway.

Even if I don't exactly applaud the movie of the League of the Extraordinary Gentlemen (or whatever it was in English) the scene where the vampire-woman showed why no one needed to protect her by killing very suddenly the guy who was threatening her was something I liked a lot. It had something like a vampire-feeling in it. Neat and sneaky but at the same time over-aggressive and scary... vampirish in short.

Scary, not the imbecile fantasy-stereotype which always goes for the lowest common denominator.

People would not have feared of vampires through ages around the Western world if they weren't actually terrible - and believable...

[Hyarion]

I pictured them more like the above image, bat-like.

[Lindale]

Funny. SInce Tolkien was vague about those vampires of his, I always pictured them as almost Bram Stoker-ish, you know, a big bat, but then again able to transform into some hideous woman (for those familiar with Philippine lit, it's the mananaggal minus the separated upper body and lower body). Very relative thoughts... I thought of the hideous-woman thingy because Luthien transformed into a bat, right? Thuringwethil or however it is spelled, haven't reread Sil recently...

[sallkid]

I believe she transformed into a vampire, not a bat.

For my part i pictured them as being another perversion of morgoth, something fell and dark, but not this thing which looks more demonic than vampiric. and definately no more than a foot higher than an average elf.

[Finduilas]

Since Tolkien didn't describe Vampires, but used a well known mithological creature, he was probably meaning it to be the usual picture, half bat half human.

[Morthoron]

Thuringwethil could take the form of a large bat, a vampire bat. This does not mean she was some type of Nosferatu. There should be no connotations of Bela Lugosi-like creatures in Middle-earth. Also, Luthien did not transform into the likeness of Thuringwethil, she merely put on the 'bat-fell' of Thurngwethil after she was killed, just as Beren wore the 'wolf-hame' of Draugluin. Tolkien refers to vampire bats at the Battle of Five Armies as well, and they are indeed bats.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Also, Luthien did not transform into the likeness of Thurngwethil, she merely put on the 'bat-fell' of Thurngwethil after she was killed,

But somehow nonetheless acquired the power of flight thereby.

[Bêthberry]

What I find fascinating is that Tolkien gave to Luthien this identity. Did he read Bram Stoker's Dracula? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula_%28novel%29 Did he know of the relationship between Lucy and the vampire and all the subversive sexuality of the Victorian genre?

What went through his mind as he gave these characters of the vampire and the werewolf to Luthien and Beren? And then had Luthien and Beren chistled onto the gravestones of himself and Edith?

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

... not transform into the likeness of Thurngwethil, she merely put on the 'bat-fell' of Thurngwethil after she was killed, just as Beren wore the 'wolf-hame' of Draugluin. Tolkien refers to vampire bats at the Battle of Five Armies as well, and they are indeed bats.

I once did an illustration of this event (sadly, it no longer is with us, my brother by *accident* threw it into the fire along with some junk mail long ago), and since Tolkien was rather vague about how actually Luthien might have looked, I highly doubt it is what the designers at GamesWorkshop thought of.
Though, I agree with you on how to consider the matter. Really, I can't see Luthien turning into a two-story vampire of sinewy porportions. When I drew it, I tried to get across the concept that it was a *cough* disguise, to give the sense of how Luthien wanted to appear to her surroundings and other creatures. There seems to be more of a sense towards secrecy and being unpretentious around other beings at Angband than, 'bwah! I be big vampiric monster...'.

~ Ka

[Knight of Gondor]

I do not recall Tolkien mentioning vampires??

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

I do not recall Tolkien mentioning vampires??

Yes, actually, in the Silmarillion in the Tale of Beren and Luthien (a single reference to a possibly Maiaric entity, Thuringwethil, and then another reference to Sauron turning into a bat), and then again in the Hobbit during the Battle of Five Armies. I can't recall any references to vampiric creatures in LotR, but it is Sunday morning and I am far too lazy to do the research.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

What I find fascinating is that Tolkien gave to Luthien this identity. Did he read Bram Stoker's Dracula? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula_%28novel%29 Did he know of the relationship between Lucy and the vampire and all the subversive sexuality of the Victorian genre?

What went through his mind as he gave these characters of the vampire and the werewolf to Luthien and Beren? And then had Luthien and Beren chistled onto the gravestones of himself and Edith?

He almost certainly knew the Bram Stoker story and will likely have read it. He took a holiday in Whitby as a young man and already by that time (in fact as soon as the novel came out - it sold pretty well) Whitby was trading on the Dracula story. His drawing of Whitby Harbour was made directly outside the old lending library where Stoker did much of his research and writing - at that time it was still a library I believe - now it is The Magpie, mecca for lovers of Fish and Chips and the spot Tolkien stood on is the Fish Market. Since Stoker's story came out, Whitby and Dracula have gone hand-in-hand.

Plus there are Tolkien's tastes, which as they included H Rider Haggard I don't doubt would include something of a similar bent as Dracula was very much part of that genre of Boys' Own adventures. As such, I don't think the undercurrents of sex and disease were as apparent to early readers as they are today, if at all! Even if it would be exciting to think Tolkien had drawn something of this dark side into his work

Now as to the form of Vampires in Tolkien's work, I think that the 'bat form' which Luthien takes is just that, i.e. a large flying bat. I don't think of demonic figures, just of a 'corrupted natural form' rather like Shelob is at heart, in the form of just a giant spider. That's good as that's also the classic notion of a vampire when he/she is flitting about.

The interesting part is what the vampire looks like when not in 'bat form'. Did Thuringwethil merely have 'folded wings' when at rest? Did she look more like a woman? Would she have been able to hide her vampire nature?

One of the scary things about vampires in popular culture of course is how they can blend in with other people - did Tolkien take that kind of template? Maybe, maybe not. What really is interesting is that he did not describe his Vampire - and really, the notion of a Vampire is one of deep-seated, dark, psychological terror. Fear of the darkness in us and in other human beings. Fear of the predator. Fear of the unknown side of human nature. I think Tolkien was playing off that in not deliberately describing his Vampire, just as he was shady and shadowy in describing, or not describing so many of his other nightmare creations. It's up to you to imagine them, if you dare...

[sallkid]

"...in The First Age Of Sun in the Wars of Beleriand it is told how, in this winged form made large and armed with talons and steel, Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor, the dark enemy.

In the Quest of the Silmaril Thuringwethil the "woman of secret shadow", was a mighty Vampire and was the chief messenger to travel between Angband and Tol - in - Gauroth" - Characters from Tolkien - David Day

The idea of the "winged form" suggests they are bat like. But Thuringwethil is definately described as a woman, suggesting a human or humanoid form...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

"...in The First Age Of Sun in the Wars of Beleriand it is told how, in this winged form made large and armed with talons and steel, Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor, the dark enemy.

In the Quest of the Silmaril Thuringwethil the "woman of secret shadow", was a mighty Vampire and was the chief messenger to travel between Angband and Tol - in - Gauroth" - Characters from Tolkien - David Day

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

[Mattius]

It reminds me of Gremlins 2 when one of the Gremlins drinks the formula to make him into a vampire/gargoyle creature. I've been looking for a picture but I think it is too obscure a reference!

[sallkid]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...David Day. I'd like to see the actual Tolkien quote that states "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor"; likewise, I'd like to read a direct Tolkien quote that states specifically "Thuringwethil....was a mighty Vampire". This is the general problem with David Day and his overactive imagination: one never knows where David Day begins and Tolkien has left off.

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

[Lalwendë]

I remembered I'd started a thread on this topic some 10 months or so ago and here it is: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...=thuringwethil

Now there I quoted all it said in the Sil which was:

He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwethil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw. Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Luthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.
Beren seeing their approach was dismayed; and he wondered, for he had heard the voice of Tinuviel, and he thought it now a phantom for his ensnaring.

and

By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

I still stand by what I said in that thread, that there is no reason why Tolkien's vampires should not take on the familiar vampire form (and especially so given that I found out a little more when in Whitby as mentioned above). Now what does interest me anew is that this thing which Luthien puts on is called a 'fell' and a 'fell' is a skin - a 'fellmonger' was someone who prepared skins for the tanner.

So did Thuringwethil put this 'fell' on when in Vampire form or was she killed and skinned? The text suggests the former as she was 'in vampires form', though if it was the latter, who skinned her? Eyuw. Hardly bears thinking about (though I will, later, and have nightmares no doubt...) - was it Huan who killed and skinned her if this was the case? Was she a Maia? And how would you skin a Maia anyway? Tolkien does call them 'dreadful garments' after all...which brings to mind that scene in Rob Roy where Liam Neeson hides inside a rotting cow or Silence of the Lambs

Had a look in the Lay of Leithian but it doesn't really give us any more info than what we have.

It's also interesting how Tolkien stuck to the resolutely Real World terminology of Vampire. I mean, could you better describe a Vampire in any word other than what they always called?

And it also brings me to the other current thread about Beorn...another 'skin changer'...was he really donning some grisly Bear skin?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by sallkid

Quite so, but seeing as Luthien wore the skin of Thuringwethil to take the form of a vampire i'd say it's accurate.

Not exactly, she donned the bat-fell of Thuringwethil --

fell (fĕl)
n.
1. The hide of an animal; a pelt.
2. A thin membrane directly beneath the hide.

She appeared as a vampire bat (albeit a large one), not a vampire...an important distinction, as Tolkien also referred to 'vampire bats' in The Hobbit. I cannot find any reference to Day's assertion that "Vampire spirits came into the service of Melkor". Thuringwethil could assume the shape of a vampire bat, which does not necessarily mean she was indeed a vampire. We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking.

And Lalwende, interestingly enough, the word 'hame' in Draugluin's wolf 'hame' does not correspond directly to 'skin' or 'pelt'; in nearly every dictionary I've looked at, a hame is as follows:

hame(hm)
n.
One of the two curved wooden or metal pieces of a harness that fits around the neck of a draft animal and to which the traces are attached.

Only when one goes further back to a corresponding word in Old Norse hamr, base *hem-, 'to cover', do we get anything even remotely close to 'skin'. However, I found an obscure website referring to Odinic Rites, here....

http://odinic-rite.org/Hama.htm

that makes reference to the following: "From the word 'Hama,' old Norse also derives the word 'Hamr,' which means 'spirit skin'- a skin that maintains the soul's energies and stops them from being dispersed when travelling from the body."

Also, "Háma may be derived from the Old English word hám meaning "village, hamlet" or it may come from the word hama meaning 'covering, garment'."

Interesting stuff.

[Bêthberry]

Morthoron, that's a fascinating phrase, spirit skin. It of course provides yet another example of the philological underpinings of Tolkien's work.

All this discussion of skin and hides reminds me that Whitby has another claim to fame: in the late 16th C one Thomas Chaloner defeated the Vatican international monopoly on alum, an element used in the curing leather, when he recognised the Vatican stone as the same as the stone on his estate in Yorkshire. His alum industry apparently sustantially undercut the costs demanded by the Vatican. Now there's a Yorkshireman for you!

Lal, your comments about Whitby's importance to Tolkien and Bram Stoker are fascinating. Do you have an online link to Tolkien's drawing of Whitby Harbour? Can it be found in J R R Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator? Perhaps someone who owns that tome could scan the picture and reproduce it here?

However, for all that fascinating history about Stoker and Whitby, Whitby is important for another subject very close to Tolkien's heart: Whitby Abby under St. Hilde was a renown centre for Anglo Saxon learning. In fact, it was a double monastery, for both men and women, and St. Hilde is held instrumental in the Cædmon story of his inspiration and famous hymn, said by some to be the first English poem. So although Tolkien may have picked up on the local lore about vampires, his main interest in the town could have been its Anglo Saxon heritage rather than research into vampires.

Still, it is intriguing to think of something in common between vampires and the elves: both are nearly immortal creatures for whom longevity breeds great ennui.

[Lalwendë]

Now as it happens I have a link to that pic here as I tried to get close to where Tolkien stood, but the modern fish market stands in the way: http://lalwendeboggart.livejournal.com/104238.html*

It is also in Artist & Illustrator, together with a sketch he did of the Abbey - a view which is identical today, despite the Abbey being shelled in WWI. Now Tolkien did take a lot of holidays on the Yorkshire coast so I wonder how fond he was of it (I know he was not all that fond of Filey, but Whitby is about 1,000% nicer!) in its own right? Did the Caedmon story stir him up? Together with Captain Cook and Dracula, Caedmon is another figure you hear a lot about in the town - there is a fab cross dedicated to scenes of his life right at the top of the 199 steps.

There is of course the Middle-earth Tavern which has a display of Tolkien posters and whatnot - but I do not know and can't find out if it was named for Tolkien or Caedmon! They do a nice chilled pint of Theakston's Old Peculier and it's almost opposite another odd ancient thing in Whitby, the Penny Hedge, planted in the harbour each Whitsun!

The place fair sucks you in with it's embarrassingly dense levels of history (and beer and fish and handmade chocolates etc ) - I can't see how Tolkien could have failed to be inspired by the tales - Stoker himself took the Demeter from a real shipwreck and the black dog from the local legend of the scary Barguest.



*Wot's happened to the texty/weblink doo-dah? I liked that!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking..

Of course, we do find

"Thus Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Taur-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror."

Which seems to imply Sauron flying ('a cloud across the moon' 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees').

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

[Raynor]

There is an interesting bit in BoLT II:

Originally Posted by The fall of Gondolin

Then arose Thorndor, King of Eagles, and he loved not Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwe in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not.

It is interesting that Melkor is here depicted as not being able to fly (nor do we see in other versions any mentioning to the contrary); if this were true, it would imply that neither could Sauron, who, if anything, is a lesser being than he.

Also, if Sauron was able to fly, I believe it is likely he would have done this other times too, but there is no record of it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

It is interesting that Melkor is here depicted as not being able to fly (nor do we see in other versions any mentioning to the contrary); if this were true, it would imply that neither could Sauron, who, if anything, is a lesser being than he.

I take it this would mean that Ancalagon & Smaug couldn't fly either, as they were lesser beings than Morgoth?

A vampire shape with pinions vast
Screeching leaped from the ground & passed
Its dark blood dripping on the trees (Lay of Leithian)

Or perhaps Sauron just screamed, jumped into the air & then ran off through the forest flapping his wings....

[sallkid]

If there were any "true" vampires in tolkien i strongly doubt that they'd look like this.
It brings to mind more the image of the Balrog, or one of the Nameless (Fell) Beasts.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

I take it this would mean that Ancalagon & Smaug couldn't fly either, as they were lesser beings than Morgoth?

Seeing that Melkor is described time and again as not being able to make new sentient beings, the race of dragons is likely a corruption of a race already able to fly. In that sense, these "proto-dragons" had this gift from the design of Eru (I am not aware that any vala was able to make even non-sentient beings).

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, we do find....

....Which seems to imply Sauron flying ('a cloud across the moon' 'dripping blood from his throat upon the trees').

Or am I misunderstanding your point?

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

I would agree with you that Tolkien employs the cultural dislike of bats as another form of creature which inspires unease and dread in humans (elves and dwarves too?), similar to the creepy, crawly spiders.

Tolkien seems to have split up what you call the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire. We have, for instance, the Dead who are cursed by Isildur and who walk the Paths of the Dead until Aragorn releases them from their oath (and Isildur's curse). Granted they are not the blood-sucking variety, but they are a form of dead who walk the earth in unhappy thralldom.

Then we have the similarity I noted above of the ennui of longevity. The aesthete is part of the vampire tradition (well, some of the tradition; it is so various) and elves certainly have aesthetic sensibilities, although perhaps without the sense of uncontrolled appetite. If we take Tolkien's comment that LotR is about death, I find it intriguing that he would consider the effects of longevity and create a race such as the elves rather than Stoker's version. Was Tolkien writing against type?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I would agree with you that Tolkien employs the cultural dislike of bats as another form of creature which inspires unease and dread in humans (elves and dwarves too?), similar to the creepy, crawly spiders.

Tolkien seems to have split up what you call the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire. We have, for instance, the Dead who are cursed by Isildur and who walk the Paths of the Dead until Aragorn releases them from their oath (and Isildur's curse). Granted they are not the blood-sucking variety, but they are a form of dead who walk the earth in unhappy thralldom.

Then we have the similarity I noted above of the ennui of longevity. The aesthete is part of the vampire tradition (well, some of the tradition; it is so various) and elves certainly have aesthetic sensibilities, although perhaps without the sense of uncontrolled appetite. If we take Tolkien's comment that LotR is about death, I find it intriguing that he would consider the effects of longevity and create a race such as the elves rather than Stoker's version. Was Tolkien writing against type?

Very interesting analogies. Considering the vampire was never truly part of the English tradition, and the actual word 'vampire' was imported from Europe in the 18th century, and vampire stories did not come into vogue until the 19th century (very few allusions to vampirism are part of British folklore prior to the 18th century, William of Newbury's 12th century description being an exception), perhaps Tolkien's inclusion of such creatures was indeed a subconscious nod to Bram Stoker's immensely popular novel (a connection which Lalwende has offered with site specific references).

There is nothing particularly Anglo-Saxon or English (or Norse, for that matter) to merit such an inclusion; whereas wights and other grave ghouls and disembodied spirits are part of the English folklore tradition. It could be said that even werewolves were more an aspect of English folklore prior to the 17th century (wolves having been eradicated by the late 1600's), but even then, aside from Gervase of Tilbury, there is scant mention; however the use of the OE 'warg' meaning 'outlaw' (from Old Norse vargr = wolf and early Germanic wargaz = criminal, killer), one can see where Tolkien got that inspiration (I was always intrigued by the monstrous Fenris/Fenrir the Wolf in Norse mythology).

Besides, as I mentioned, what other flying creature but the bat can be considered loathsome enough to inspire fear in Morgoth's enemies? Bats are just plain creepy, sort of rats with wings.

As far as Elves, those that populated Norse myths were certainly of a divine or semi-divine nature. I had always assumed Tolkien took the aspect of Elvish immortality from Norse legend.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I mean, by definition, when Tolkien uses the term 'vampire', he is referring to a bat or bat-like entity, not vampire in the sense of the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire.

Sorry. When you said

We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about like overgrown canaries or laden swallows, it would be unseemly, and certainly not the 'look' the Dark Lord was seeking.

I thought you meant We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about. Obviously We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about is your way of saying "We can't expect Morgoth's minions to include "the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire",

As I've shown, some of Morgoth's minions (like Sauron) did fly about (Sauron having the ability to assume human, wolf & bat form - Dracula or what?). I don't think its stated whether Thuringwethil was 'undead' or not, so one can only speculate.





I can only put this down to the old 'two nations divided by a single language' thing.

[Lalwendë]

Sorry my mind is just racing away now with notions and wild imaginings about vampires and Sauron and so on...

I think firstly that in Tolkien's case the image of the vampire to his generation was not necessarily similar to ours. We see them as seductive creatures, even attractive, whereas in his day Dracula was part of the Boys' own adventure genre and the figure of the Vampire would just have been a thrilling enemy or baddie to be defeated. Yet a very impressive one nevertheless. And Morthoron is right that Vampires are very alien to Western European culture - that very 'foreign-ness' I think makes them that bit more exotic and frightening to many readers.

Now there's nothing to say that Tolkien had to stick to Western European images in creating his work, he was free to do as he pleased of course - and he did. And he was a master of Gothic (as were many Catholics) and why not bring in the most Uber-Goth of all Gothic icons, the Vampire?

What does interest me in the Vampire/Elf comparison is that not all Elves are these good, perfect people! There is the information that Tolkien gave us about Elves who lingered in Middle-earth eventually seeing their hroa burn away and becoming sinister, shadowy inhabitants of trees and rocks. There are greedy, bloodthirsty Elves like Feanor and his kin became. There are seductive, Byronic Dark Elves like Eol.

Now another thing which interests me is that Sauron seems to have been able to take 'Vampire form'. Does this mean that it was simply that - a kind of costume available to Maiar or does it mean it already existed as a form? Or does it mean that if one took the form of a Bat then it would mean one would not be a bat but would be a kind of corrupted bat - i.e. a Vampire? And by extension, was a werewolf a specifically corrupted form of Wolf? I'm leaning to that as Tolkien in the one phrase uses both 'bat-like' and 'bat':

By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Luthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

So it is metaphorically like a bat and also literally a bat.

Bit like the Balrog's wings eh?

I think left there deliberately like that to suggest a mercurial nature that cannot quite be defined - in the case of Vampire, Werewolf and Balrog alike.

And I still incline towards the Vampire being able to take bat and humanoid form as why else would Thuringwethil's name mean 'woman of shadow'?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Sorry. When you said

I thought you meant We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about. Obviously We can't expect Morgoth's minions to fly about is your way of saying "We can't expect Morgoth's minions to include "the walking dead Nosferatu variety vampire"....

No, what I meant was Morgoth's minions couldn't bloody well go flying about looking like great pink canaries; they would necessarily have to go flying about in the form of a bat or some other loathsome apparition, in keeping with Tolkien's code of evil equaling dark/black/sinister.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

And I still incline towards the Vampire being able to take bat and humanoid form as why else would Thuringwethil's name mean 'woman of shadow'?

*shrugs* Again the enigmatic Professor Tolkien strikes. Sauron could take the form of a bat or a wolf, but I dont' think that suggests he was either a vampire or a wolf. I believe this is one of those thousands of instances in Middle-earth labeled 'open to conjecture'.

P.S. On further examination, one finds the trolls who fought Aragorn's forces at the Morannon bit the necks of their adversaries. This is perhaps more of a predatory means of killing as seen in other real world species (felines, for instance).

[davem]

[QUOTE=Morthoron;526892]No, what I meant was Morgoth's minions couldn't bloody well go flying about looking like great pink canaries; they would necessarily have to go flying about in the form of a bat or some other loathsome apparition, in keeping with Tolkien's code of evil equaling dark/black/sinister.
QUOTE]

As in the goldish-black Smaug or the Whiteish-Black Saruman? Or the paleish-black Ringwraiths & such.

Or were you just generalising – the exception proves the rule & all that?

[the phantom]

Actually, that is pretty much how I pictured Thuringwethil's in-flight form.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Very interesting analogies. Considering the vampire was never truly part of the English tradition, and the actual word 'vampire' was imported from Europe in the 18th century, and vampire stories did not come into vogue until the 19th century (very few allusions to vampirism are part of British folklore prior to the 18th century, William of Newbury's 12th century description being an exception), perhaps Tolkien's inclusion of such creatures was indeed a subconscious nod to Bram Stoker's immensely popular novel (a connection which Lalwende has offered with site specific references).

There is nothing particularly Anglo-Saxon or English (or Norse, for that matter) to merit such an inclusion; whereas wights and other grave ghouls and disembodied spirits are part of the English folklore tradition. It could be said that even werewolves were more an aspect of English folklore prior to the 17th century (wolves having been eradicated by the late 1600's), but even then, aside from Gervase of Tilbury, there is scant mention; however the use of the OE 'warg' meaning 'outlaw' (from Old Norse vargr = wolf and early Germanic wargaz = criminal, killer), one can see where Tolkien got that inspiration (I was always intrigued by the monstrous Fenris/Fenrir the Wolf in Norse mythology).

Well, spiders are more part of African folklore--the trickster God Anansi--than UK lore (if I recall correctly), but that didn't stop Tolkien from creating the hideous Shelob or Ungoliant. And as a Medievalist, he would most likely know of the account by William of Newbury. While Tolkien was clearly working within the context of northern sagas and folklore, that does not necessarily exclude other sources of inspiration. If one is creating an entire mythology, one is bound to be inclusive rather than exclusive, no? (btw, there is a fascinating article in Charles Dickens’ magazine All the Year Round, which links vampires and werewolves and of course the pre-Raphaelites did tend to conflate medieval themes with vampyric things.)

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as Elves, those that populated Norse myths were certainly of a divine or semi-divine nature. I had always assumed Tolkien took the aspect of Elvish immortality from Norse legend.

It isn't the aspect of immortality per se which is the significant shared characteristic, but the response to such immortality--long memories, the ennui and weariness of it all. It's been ages since I read the Norse sagas or the Greek or Roman myths, but I think Tolkien explored the effect of such long memories in a way that had not been done before. Of course, I could be over emphasizing the ennui of the elves. Perhaps nostalgia is the more predominant trait. Yet I think the boredom of the aesthete, to which I include the cult of the vampires, is definitely there in Tolkien. He may not have liked the Wildes of the literature of his time, but that would not stop an author from exploring some similar conditions.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, spiders are more part of African folklore--the trickster God Anansi--than UK lore (if I recall correctly), but that didn't stop Tolkien from creating the hideous Shelob or Ungoliant.

Tolkien played down the significance of the Tarantula bite he suffered as a child, but it may have played some part in the prominence of spiders in his Legendarium. However Michael (I think it was) had a fear of spiders. They appear in Roverandom as well as TH, LotR & The Sil. In TH & Roverandom, both written for his children - or at least his children were the primary audience - one should perhaps focus on the family relevance of spiders.

Again, the spider has strong pagan connections, being a creature linked with Ariadne & possibly with the Welsh Arianrhod ( her name 'Silver-wheel' has been linked with a spider's web).

Of course, spiders are quite creepy creatures....

It isn't the aspect of immortality per se which is the significant shared characteristic, but the response to such immortality--long memories, the ennui and weariness of it all. It's been ages since I read the Norse sagas or the Greek or Roman myths, but I think Tolkien explored the effect of such long memories in a way that had not been done before. Of course, I could be over emphasizing the ennui of the elves. Perhaps nostalgia is the more predominant trait. Yet I think the boredom of the aesthete, to which I include the cult of the vampires, is definitely there in Tolkien. He may not have liked the Wildes of the literature of his time, but that would not stop an author from exploring some similar conditions.

In A Question of Time Flieger cites an unpublished note by Tolkien on Elvish time:

"In Elvish sentiment the 'future' was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though inevitably it lay 'ahead', as of one on a journey, "looking forward" did not implyanticipation of delight. "I look forward to seeing you again" did not mean or imply "I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/& or very likely, I am pleased". It meant simply "I expect to see you againwith the certainty of foresight(in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dislike, 'foreboding'" Their position , as of latter day sentiment was of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual position ever looking backwards".

Flieger interprets -

"Tolkien's Elves, who, facing toward their past, are 'backed' into the future by those who follow. Men are 'proceeding' into the future, while Elves are 'receeding' into it."

I'm not sure that the Elvish attitude, their sense of alienation & isolation from the present, would promote a feeling of ennui - more one of 'embattlement'. My own feeling is that their desire to 'embalm' the world around them (hence leading to produce the Rings) is a direct result of this feeling.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien played down the significance of the Tarantula bite he suffered as a child, but it may have played some part in the prominence of spiders in his Legendarium. However Michael (I think it was) had a fear of spiders. They appear in Roverandom as well as TH, LotR & The Sil. In TH & Roverandom, both written for his children - or at least his children were the primary audience - one should perhaps focus on the family relevance of spiders.

Again, the spider has strong pagan connections, being a creature linked with Ariadne & possibly with the Welsh Arianrhod ( her name 'Silver-wheel' has been linked with a spider's web).

Of course, spiders are quite creepy creatures....

And there is the uncanny similarity between the Tolkienian word for Spiders and the Lancastrian one - Attercop and Attercrop. I believe the latter is from Norse or Old English too. Uncanny when familiar words that few others know crop up in a book like that

I think he simply picked up on lots of thrilling and scary touchstones for his work - after all it takes a rare person (like me) who is keen on spiders rather than afraid of them. And the very idea of a Vampire is just quite horrible when you think about it.

Interesting though how many readers, particularly younger ones, pick up on both the Elves' and on Vampires' immortality and consider it exciting and cool and enviable. I know, I was the same. And then you get older, when you logically think you would relish immortality even more, and instead you begin to find the idea slightly 'wrong', even frightening. Now if you read Vampire fiction, particularly Anne Rice, then you also find immortals feeling that way, that they do not in fact like the idea of living forever, and it seems a fair few Elves too get tired with it. In fact a few little rebellions here and there might have seemed valuable boredom relievers to some Elves...