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04-16-2007, 02:37 PM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Beardless
Do you suppose that the beardless features of Tolkien's Elves and Numenoreans have anything to do with the fact that he himself was beardless? In pictures and videos of the Professor it does not seem like he needed to shave, unless he did it everyday.
I find that beards are usually given to characters of less nobility, or of mixed blood, or of less stature. I can't explain that for say, Gandalf and Cirdan (the only known Elf with a beard I believe), and I can't recall off the top of my head who else is said to have a beard but Gimli and Theoden, but do you get the same feeling here? Many of the common folk were bearded, I think, unless I am going off my own mind and no fact. We know that the Elves we meet in The Lord of the Rings did not have beards (except in extreme old age, like Cirdan I suspect), and we know that most likely neither did Aragorn, Faramir, Denethor, Boromir (although left to opinion), Imrahil, and all of the Hobbits (I know a certain race of Hobbits had beards, but not the one's we meet.) So what's the deal here? Was Tolkien biased towards the beardless? Any opinions?
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04-16-2007, 02:56 PM | #2 |
A Mere Boggart
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I like to think that Elves could grow beards, if they wanted them, as it might throw up all kinds of slightly uncomfortable* hormonal problems otherwise! Maybe it was the Elves' culture to prefer to be clean-shaven, and Numenorean Men followed them in this 'fashion statement'. As to why Cirdan grew a beard, maybe it was the influence of living out on a limb from most other Elves, or he kinda liked the style statements made by them Istari when they arrived on the shores of Middle-earth?
Mind, I always picture Elrond with a beard - and I'm not the only one, as Alan Lee does, too. *Literally...
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04-17-2007, 06:10 AM | #3 | |
Wight
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Being a bit of a thickie, I think you'll have to explain it to me. Use pictures if necessary.
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04-18-2007, 09:23 PM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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yeah, do tell...So you think they shaved? haha
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04-19-2007, 04:50 AM | #5 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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05-01-2007, 08:38 AM | #6 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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I dont think that it had to do with nobility or anything. All dwarves had beards (as far as I know) and many humans do, and as we all know humans make up some of the most noble beings ever to walk Arda. I think that the perception of Elves being the fairest folk of the land has to present them as somewhat angelic. And gristle does not fit in well there. Elves were known for their valour and grace, and in order to extend that presenting them as fair (and, consequently, smooth and beardless) the Elvish men were not bearded.
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05-01-2007, 10:10 AM | #7 |
Pile O'Bones
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When I think of beards in Middle Earth, I think of Gandalf and Saruman and the other wizards, as well as of Dwarves and Wild men... So I don't think it has anything to do with nobility. Some races like it, some probably (like elves) don't.
And it is nowhere said that elves don't have beards, imagine they are like the north-american indians, who have much less facial hair than the other races and remove it. |
05-01-2007, 10:54 AM | #8 |
Dead Serious
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Of course, despite the apparent claims, re: Imrahil and Dol Amroth, that Elven lineage means beardlessness, the Elves themselves are not beardless. Quite apart from Cķrdan, we have Thranduil (who, though he may have been in the Hobbit is no less a valid image of how Tolkien viewed a major Elf-king).
Indeed, unless we are TOLD that an Elf or Man was cleanshaven, we have no necessary reason to assume so...
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05-01-2007, 09:01 PM | #9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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05-03-2007, 08:34 AM | #10 | ||
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05-03-2007, 09:43 AM | #11 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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That aside, there are number of very different characters described as having beards:Cirdan, Gandalf, Saruman, Theoden, Ghan-buri-Ghan (who is described as having a "scanty beard straggled on his lumpy chin as dry moss"), Beorn. I therefore don't think of beards as something Tolkien assigned to characters to indicate a lack of nobility; but that he simply visualised certain characters as bearded. |
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05-15-2007, 06:13 PM | #12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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05-16-2007, 12:51 PM | #13 | |||
Pile O'Bones
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But as Tolkien contradicts himself often, as we see in the first quote, it may cetrainly be, that he mentioned somewhere Men without beard. |
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05-16-2007, 01:50 PM | #14 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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QUOTE] Quote:
The Stoors were broader, heavier in build, and had less hair on their feet and more on their chins, and preferred flat lands and riversides. [Added: Their feet and hands were large.] The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; they preferred highlands and hill-sides. [Added: Their hands and feet were neat and nimble.] The Fallohides were fairer of skin and often of hair, and were taller than the others; they were lovers of trees and woodlands. [Added: All Hobbits were 'good shots' with stone, sling or bow, but the Fallohides were the surest on the mark.] The Stoors [> Harfoots] had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the Misty Mountains. [/QUOTE] Ah, the bearded Stoors. It is said of the hobbits of the Eastfarthing that they were "Stoors in a large part of their blood, as indeed was shown by the don that many grew on their chines." By contrast "(n)o Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of a beard". (LotR, Prologue:Concerning Hobbits) So to amend my earlier statement hobbits, with the exception of those with Stoor ancestry, are beardless. Quote:
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05-16-2007, 08:03 PM | #15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"Greybeards" are probably the common folk of Gondor, most likely not the ones with Numenorean blood... thank you for the quotes! Much appreciated...it's a confusing subject...
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05-16-2007, 08:12 PM | #16 |
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The quote in question isn't from the HoME, but from Unfinished Tales, unless I am vastly mistaken. From the section on Nimrodel in "The Tale of Galadriel and Celeborn", possibly a footnote. (All that is a guess... I could be way off.)
However, I am quite certain that I am NOT way off when I say that nowhere ever printed or referred to in print, did Tolkien EVER write anything saying that Nśmenoreans were unbearded. Even his statement on the Elves is contradictory with the image of Elves shown elsewhere, as already demonstrated by Thranduil and Cķrdan.
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05-16-2007, 10:00 PM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Where does it say that Thranduil is bearded? I've been looking through TH for the reference but so far nothing.
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He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said |
05-17-2007, 03:00 AM | #18 | |
Pile O'Bones
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Concerning the other quote, I think greybeards is just another name for the elders of Gondor and if they are referred to as "greybeards", it is somehow logic to me that they have beards. The subject is really confusing (and very interesting too). Tolkien often contradicts himself. I think I'll search my e-books again, this time to see how many bearded characters I find, this subject really arose my interest All quotes are from HoME, I'll check later in which volumes I found them, when I get home |
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05-17-2007, 04:38 PM | #19 | |
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However... despite the fact that I can't find any evidence... I STILL want to say that Thranduil was bearded... but I have no evidence and am reasonably forced to conclude that I am mistaken on that point.
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05-18-2007, 08:29 AM | #20 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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05-19-2007, 10:43 PM | #21 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring |
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05-22-2007, 10:20 AM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Any more opinions? This is a topic highly up for opinion.
Here's a question- do you think that when Tolkien describes a character as "fair of face", that this refers to beardlessness?
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05-22-2007, 10:48 PM | #23 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring |
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05-23-2007, 01:23 AM | #24 | ||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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So it is possible to be bearded and fair of face. On the other hand you have hobbits, who are generally beardless, apart from the Stoors who have facial hair. But hobbits are said to have "good natured" rather than beautiful faces.
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He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said |
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05-23-2007, 11:38 AM | #25 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Nice insight and connection. Thanks.
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05-27-2007, 03:36 PM | #26 | |
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05-27-2007, 04:19 PM | #27 | ||
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05-27-2007, 05:29 PM | #28 |
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Quite so- and let's also please allow for natural variation within populations! For example Mahtan and three of his grandsons had red hair, and Nerdanel's was brown- even though 'officially' all non-Finarfinian Noldor had raven locks.
Nor can we forget the nameless Elf of Lorien who helped Haldir with the rope-bridge: whether Noldo, Sinda, or Nando he's not 'supposed' to have golden hair: but he does. |
05-27-2007, 05:32 PM | #29 | |
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05-28-2007, 12:45 AM | #30 | |
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Another example of the arguments one can get into by treating TH as part of the Legendarium proper...... |
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05-28-2007, 10:01 AM | #31 | ||
Shade of Carn Dūm
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Or (speculating) it may be that Thranduil has a Vanya ancestor in his family tree. In any event I don't think that one Sinda being described in TH as golden haired is enough to cast doubt on/cause significant conflict with anything said elsewhere on the hair colour of the Sindar.
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He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said |
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05-29-2007, 06:14 AM | #32 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In any case I see no great reason to give the 'Vanyarin concern' textual parity here: published text concerning the Eldar outweighs unpublished text concerning the Vanyar in my opinion (and certainly outweighs draft text). |
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05-29-2007, 10:45 PM | #33 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Does anybody know, as Anįwiel is M.I.A., where this quote is from?
In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above).
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05-30-2007, 06:03 AM | #34 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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MatthewM, that was published as part of The History Of Galadriel And Celeborn in Unfinished Tales
And with respect to Elves anyway, Tolkien once wrote (published in Vinyar Tengwar 41)... Quote:
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05-30-2007, 11:08 AM | #35 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Thanks. What is Vinyar Tengwar? Elvish speech? Is there a section for this in UT or HoMe?
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05-30-2007, 02:01 PM | #36 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Vinyar Tengwar is a not-for-profit refereed journal of the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship.
More details can be found on the web at The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship (from where I lifted this description actually) which is an international organization devoted to the scholarly study of Tolkien's languages. |
05-30-2007, 02:21 PM | #37 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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06-03-2007, 10:56 PM | #38 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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On the subject of hair color-
Do you think that when Tolkien described a character with dark hair that it was always raven? What about dark brown? Faramir's hair is described as raven when it mixes with Eowyn's in the wind, however black hair is seen in our modern world predominately in the Asian culture, although it is possible in a European background I'm sure. What color do you think "dark hair" meant? I like to think he meant dark brown, as well as raven.
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06-04-2007, 06:08 PM | #39 |
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Pardon for slight off topic
now that you mention Cirdan and his beard, he 's an elf right? and they were gifted with the gift of immortality and never grow old. then why did Cirdan looks like an old man. just look at Galadriel, she's at least as old as Cirdan and yet they say she's very beautiful. remember the first movie, at the beginning when they mention "three rings were given to the elf"? there's 3 elf there, Galadriel (Cate Blanchet), and there's also 2 other elves. i assumed the dark haired one is Gil-Galad and the White haired old loking one is Cirdan. even in movie depictionas he look quite old.
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06-04-2007, 07:54 PM | #40 | |
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Actually, you have a good point... but I must quibble about the relative ages of Cķrdan and Galadriel. Cķrdan is quite a bit older than Galadriel. From texts about him in the Silmarillion writings, we can see that he was clearly born either before or on the Great March, since he was an adult at the time that Elwė (Thingol) was lost in Nan Elmoth, and I would lean towards an earlier date for his birth rather than a later one, since he was clearly a person of some stature among the Teleri, as evidenced by his lordship from the beginning of the Falathrim, and since the Sindar in general were widely composed of those akin to Thingol, it cannot have been on the basis of his kinship to Thingol alone. Cķrdan, then is probably about the same age then as Thingol, or his good friend, Finwė-- Galadriel's grandfather. We are also told, in Unfinished Tales that it was not long before the brightness of Valinor was dimmed (with the release of Melkor) that she grew to adulthood. And since Melkor was imprisoned for three Ages, and since most of those three Ages passed after the arrival of the Vanyar and Noldor in Valinor, it seems likely to assume that Cķrdan was something like two and a half Ages older than Galadriel. It also seems probable that Galadriel was the youngest of Finwė's grandchildren, or one of the youngest, seeing as she was the youngest child of his youngest son. (It should also be noted that these "Ages" before the demise of the Two Trees were of a fixed, numerical length--one that I can't recall at the moment, but one which I believe was rather shorter than the 2nd and 3rd Ages turned out to be... Still, although Galadriel and Cķrdan are both quite old, the Shipwright has a decided edge.)
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