Sign of the Shadow

[Elmo]

A sign of the shadow falling on Numenor was when instead of bringing gifts to the men of Middle Earth they became their masters and created an Endorian Empire.

What is the difference between these colonial exploits and Gondor's up to the mid-point of the third age? When Gondor conquered great swathes of Harad and Rhun. Some might say that the 'wild men' attacked Gondor unlike Numenor first so it was just retaliation but when you conquer a people you just create more enmity and create more enemies. People who might not be so usaully so inclined, might join the cause against Gondor, to drive the foreign imperialists out of their land.

What I don't get is how why, when Numenor conquers foreign lands, its the sign of the shadow, when Gondor does it, there seems to be no reprimand from the author. Is this unintentional and Gondor's foreign conquest show that the Land of Stone has indeed fallen under the shadow in some way. If Gondor had kept getting stronger and there was no decay would it, to paraphrase Melkor, had the whole world for its belly?

(In the case of the Rohirrim and the northmen, weren't they distant kin to the Gondorians and that is the reason of the friendship. Maybe because the folk of Harad and Rhun were fair game because they weren't)

Hey, normally I just ghost the forums, but I saw this topic (which seemed like a fairly good one) going to waste so I thought I'd step in. First post .

Well, one of the main diffrences in the two situations was that Gondor was actually under serious threat from Rhun and Harad whereas Numenor was more or less completely safe from the peoples they conquered. This in itself is essentially justification for Gondor's actions, but beyond that Numenor also conquered out of greed (unlike Gondor).

The Akallabêth says:

But those who lived turned more eagerly to pleasure and revelry, desiring ever more goods and more riches...

and

Thus it came to pass in that time that the Númenóreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands; for their own land now seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth, since the West was denied. Great harbours and strong towers they made, and there many of them took up their abode; but they appeared now rather as lords and masters and gatherers of tribute than as helpers and teachers.

(Italics added for embellishment).

This is quite to the contrary of what Gondor was doing. Where Numenor solely seeked to exploit the lands and peoples under it's dominion (well, at least the "colonies" under it's dominion) Gondor seeked protection. Gondor's aim was to keep Harad and Rhun under control, and the easiest way to do that was to rule them. It probably didn't make the men of Harad and Rhun very happy, but it was in the best interest of Gondor (and Gondor's allies) to keep Harad and Rhun restrained. It's much easier to prosper when your not under the constant threat of attack.

So, in essence, it boils down to intention.

[Elmo]

It reminds me a bit about the Roman Empire, when ever they invaded some country always claimed it was in self defense. With such a huge empire I'm sure that wasn't usually the case. But I suppose Gondor's aim truly was noble. I wonder what Gondor's colonial regime was like. How did they deal with rebellious Haradwraith etc. Or maybe they 'ethnically cleansed' the native people, I don't know.

(This thread doesn't seem to have been the hit of the forum by any means does it?)

[The Might]

Well I disagree Gondor can be really compared to Numenor.
Gondor were fighting a superior enemy (that could overpower them by numbers) and they fought to maintain their realm and ensure their safety mostly.
The Numenoreans on the other hand fought adversaries that stood absolutely no chance against them, and their only purpose was to conquer and to enslave these populations.

Though now that you mention it, I do see a resemblance between Gondor and the Roman Empire.
By conquering the area south of the Sea of Rhun and south towards Umbar, Gondor created a protection area around the core of their realm, also creating a "Pax Gondoriana".
In my opinion the same happens in the beginning of the Fourth Age.
The Reunited Kingdom (with Rohan's help) ensures for the safety of pretty much all the inhabitants of north-western Middle-earth. Even the Hobbits, the Druedain, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Men of Esgaroth are under their protection.
It is stated that Aragorn and Eomer fought together in areas far to the east, probably in order to re-create this protectory area.

PS: I like the thread.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not so sure they are very different. Gondor is supposed to be lesser, decayed, fallen away: Faramir says that they have become more like the "Middle Men," loving warfare for its own sake. Gondor's expansion is a reflection of its pride and power--and for Tolkien, Pride and Power never lead anyplace good.

T himself opposed imperialism, disliked the British Empire (as opposed to England), was an early supporter of Irish Home Rule, and came young to the conclusion the Boer War was wrong.

Of course, it was also necessary for the 'plot' of 3rd Age history that Gondor be mighty while Arnor fell apart- and also for its former might to give an Ozymandias feel to the time of Denethor.