Does it count as survival?

[Kath]

I was reading a Facebook group earlier in which Harry Potter was being compared to Frodo. The thread was based on the idea that there are epics in which the hero of the book survives all the evils that occur in order to give support to the idea that Harry won't die in the last book, and LotR was used as an example. Now I know there is a large debate over who the true hero of the books is but if let's just assume that it's Frodo we're talking about here.

So the question is: do you consider Frodo to have 'survived' or not? It feels obvious to just answer yes because of course he is alive by the end, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

[narfforc]

Frodo survived in the physical sense, however he was never fully whole again (apart from missing a finger , the mental scars would take a lifetime to heal, and the poison of Shelob I believe would return from time to time in much the same way as a malaria attack (my opinion, a possibility). The wound he recieved from the Morgul blade troubled him so he could never forget the horror of Weathertop. Frodo pre-War of the Ring did not survive, he was changed into Frodo the Hurt.

[Morwen]

Frodo pre-War of the Ring did not survive, he was changed into Frodo the Hurt.

This accords with Frodo's own assessment of his position.

"Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?" RotK, Homeward Bound

But post War of the Ring Frodo has also evolved from the Hobbit who did not pity Gollum (FotR, Shadow of the Past) to one who forbids the killing of Saruman after the latter attempts to kill him - "He is fallen and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it" (RotK, The Scouring of the Shire) I saw this extension of Mercy as an indication of Frodo's moral development and because of this, though he is Frodo the Hurt, he has done more than just survive his ordeal. He has, as Saruman himself acknowleges, grown.

[Lalwendë]

Grown too much maybe?

I think Frodo did indeed survive physically but as for otherwise... I agree with narfforc. He was driven to extremes and so learned about pity and justice and was able to understand Gollum - those are good things, but it was quite far from our idea of a beneficial 'learning experience'. He was driven that bit too far, and although trauma teaches people many things, and you may survive it, many like Frodo do not really survive it.

Instead of coming to terms with or learning to accept the limitations caused by his trauma, Frodo retreats. Into it or away from it we don't know as we don't follow him, but he may as well be dead to us as he has gone where others cannot follow.

[Child of the 7th Age]

....although trauma teaches people many things, and you may survive it, many like Frodo do not really survive it.

Lalwende,

Perhaps that's why Frodo rings true for many people yet vastly irritates others, who see him as hapless victim and may blame him for his inability to deal with loss. Even in the seventh age, it is an experience we can tap into. We may not be individually trudging across Mordor with the Ring, but the experience of loss and change is so central to life that we are inevitably moved by it. Some folk pick up such a load of grief and heartache in a lifetime that it essentially changes their basic nature.

The problem here is that the reader is left behind on the shore watching the ship depart and does not know what, if anything, comes later. Are we simply looking at a representation of death, or were the shores of Tol Eressea able to bring healing? How much of that healing lay in the land and how much lay in Frodo's ability to respond and change?

So perhaps Frodo hasn't grown "too much" but rather he's reached a point where further growth seems so painful that he is unwilling to try it. It all gets down to the question of how we regard Frodo's departure for the West. Is he merely fleeing in distress because he is afraid to stay in the Shire, or is there the germ of an honest attempt to reach out for a warmer environment where change and growth are possible? Perhaps the mere willingness to change, to leave one environment for another, is an indication that he is capable of further change and growth.

he may as well be dead to us as he has gone where others cannot follow.

I'm not so sure. That wasn't the feeling I had when I watched the boat sail outward. We at least know something about the nature of Aman and what awaits Frodo, unlike the puzzle of physical death. What sticks in my head from that final chapter is the image from the Bombadil dream sequence, now repeated and implicitly made real. The grey rain curtain turned to silver and the green country under a swift sunrise do leave me with the hope that Frodo was capable of change within the blessed lands. The fact that Bilbo was with him and was going to need Frodo's help also lifted the darkness a bit. If Frodo was capable of responding to Bilbo's need, and I believe he could, then there was the possibility that he could grow beyond the point where he currently was. If that is not the case, then the ending is indeed very bleak and somehow I can't accept that. I guess I'm a hopeless romantic.

As to the comparison of Harry and Frodo, it is thin at best. The comparison breaks down at a lot of points, even before we've read that final book. But it will be interesting to see what kind of ending the author gives to her character and to what degree she was influenced by Tolkien, since she was certainly influenced by Tolkien in certain aspects of her story.

[littlemanpoet]

Frodo's heroism is ironic. He saves the Shire but not for himself, and before the book ends he has gone on to his metaphorical death, i.e., his 'final resting place' in Tol Eressea.

The real hero is Sam. He is loyal, makes huge sacrifices, does deeds far beyond his seeming capabilities, then comes home to the Shire and thrives, being made mayor, which is as close to 'king of the hobbits' as a hobbit can get.

Can Sam be compared to Harry? Not very well. I see more Aragorn in Harry than any other heroic figure in LotR, but book 7 may nullify my guesswork.

The Harry Potter series has gotten darker with each book. The death of Cedric Diggory was a shock to me, and heralded "anything goes" for the entire series.

[narfforc]

Maybe JK Rowling has some plan for Harry to be broken or changed in some way, if the meaning behind his life is broken, his friends or loved one dies and he cannot save them, this may change Harry in the same way as Annakin Skywalker was, Frodo managed to save the Shire yet he was still broken in some way, how would he have reacted if he'd had real power and seen the Shire being destroyed in front of him, would he have used absolute power for good knowing that the same power may corrupt if used by one with unbalanced emotions. Maybe in using that power Harry is seduced by The Other side and kills one of his friends only to be saved at the last minute by the awful realisation of what he has done, or by the appearence of his parents, in this he would be similar to Frodo's temptation by The Ring, and Gollum's intervention.

[Mithalwen]

I touched on this I think long ago in the chapter by chapter discussion so alas I am repeating myself...

I think it is quite clear that Frodo does not survive the quest in the same way that Aragorn and the other hobbits survive to marry, have children and take up their offices of responsibility.

To me it seems that he has died from the possibility of that life by the time he reaches Rivendell. The morgul wound, though not technically fatal has seemingly brought him in to a different type of being - a more spiritual type. Think of Gandalf's comment to himself that Frodo will be as a vessel filled with light for those with the eyes to see? Which is at the same time as they discuss Glorfindel's appearance as a figure of light as Frodo crossed the river and how Glorfindel dwellt in both realms at the same time .

tbc

[Morwen]

I think it is quite clear that Frodo does not survive the quest in the same way that Aragorn and the other hobbits survive to marry, have children and take up their offices of responsibility.

Merry, Pippin, and Sam all marry in their thirties. At the time he left the Shire Frodo was about 50 and, like Bilbo before him, he seemed like a confirmed bachelor. I therefore don't see the quest as depriving him of a family life as he didn't seem to be heading down that path anyway.

Instead of coming to terms with or learning to accept the limitations caused by his trauma, Frodo retreats. Into it or away from it we don't know as we don't follow him, but he may as well be dead to us as he has gone where others cannot follow.

I thought that he did come to terms with his situation by accepting that he could not stay in the Shire and be healed, that he has had to give the Shire up so that others may keep it and that if he was going to survive (physically) he would have to go West. So I didn't see his departure as giving up or fleeing but moving on - like recognising that a particular drug or treatment isn't working for you and trying something different.

Whether he found healing - I don't know but like Child of the 7th Age the description of Frodo's arrival in the West - sweet fragrance in the air, the sound of singing, a far green country under a swift sunrise - left me feeling optimistic about his chances.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

At what point does one account for change, and is it arbitrary?

What's the difference between Frodo's injury and, say, me losing a leg and becoming extremely melancholy? Do I become a different person?

I'm inclined prima facie to think that it's the same Frodo and that he did survive.

[Folwren]

I know next to nothing about Harry Potter, so I can say nothing concerning that. However, I did have a thought while reading this thread about Frodo and what changed him.

I'm re-reading the books now, and just yesterday, I read this:

Originally Posted by Gandalf to Frodo in Shadow of the Past

And I could not "make you [throw it away or destroy it]" - except by force, which would break your mind.

In the end, the Ring was taken from Frodo by force. I don't entirely believe that it broke his mind, but that may have something to do with his changed life afterwards.

-- Folwren

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In the end, the Ring was taken from Frodo by force. I don't entirely believe that it broke his mind, but that may have something to do with his changed life afterwards.

I suspect the 'force' Gandalf was referring to would be mental or 'magical' force- psychological domination of a sort which prob. would cause permanent damage.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Grown too much maybe?
Instead of coming to terms with or learning to accept the limitations caused by his trauma, Frodo retreats. Into it or away from it we don't know as we don't follow him, but he may as well be dead to us as he has gone where others cannot follow.

Unless your name is Samwise Gamgee!

[smeagollives]

that is an intereseting question. i have to say i hated the end of the book. i really hated it.
but i think frodo survived. but to my mind he suffered from depression. to my mind he has not saved the shire. indeed he was about to ruin the shire when he claimed the ring.... or may be the ring claimed him. however one puts that.
i think some higher power did not want the shire to be destroid.

i do not judge this, because i am really sure in the same situation i would have done the same.

there was a line saying something like "i tried to save the shire... and it has been saved". frodo did not say "...and i saved it". it sounds like "i tried to save the shire... and it had been saved... but not by me".

i do not think he died. i think he hurt a lot, but may be he would be able to recover if he really would have wanted it... but i think he did not want it. he thought that he deserved to hurt and did not deserve a happy life and may be he was hopeless.

[smeagollives]

I tried to edit... but i could not. I want to say one more think. i think there is always hope. for everybody. "Where there's life, there's hope and need of vittles."... and i if there is none i do not want to know.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by smeagollives

there was a line saying something like "i tried to save the shire... and it has been saved". frodo did not say "...and i saved it". it sounds like "i tried to save the shire... and it had been saved... but not by me".

Interesting thought. It seems like something I would totally disagree with, but I think it needs some consideration. Perhaps you're right. . .even if just partially so.

I'll have to think about that one.

-- Foley

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by smeagollives

] i do not think he died.

What do you mean?

there was a line saying something like "i tried to save the shire... and it has been saved". frodo did not say "...and i saved it". it sounds like "i tried to save the shire... and it had been saved... but not by me".

Not exactly:

Originally Posted by The Grey Havens, RotK

I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me.

[smeagollives]

english is not my native language, so it is a bit complicated for me to explain what i mean.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What do you mean?

i mean. he has not died. his personality stayed alive. let me give an exmaple: anakin skywalker. his personality died and he became darth vader... but something like this never happened to frodo. he did not turn into something like gollum.

This line "i tried to save the shire... and it HAS BEEN saved". he did not say "i tried to save the shire and i did". that struck me as odd.

i did not eman to say he SAID "i tried to save the shire... and it had been saved... but not by me", but waht he said sounded as if he wanted to say this. to me personally it sounded like this. biut may be other people think different about this.

[Eönwë]

Hmm... this is a very interesting thread indeed.

Frodo, when he comes back to the Shire, is no longer the Frodo we see at beginning of the books. He still shares a lot with Frodo before, and he still is the same person, but he is also changed.

When he comes back from his journey, I think Lalwende is right when he says that he has grown too much. He can't go back to life before because he has changed, even if he appears the same. I think that the reason he that the shire isn't saved for him is that it is no longer the place for him. As the Hobbits of the Shire are the carefree and innocent individuals that we all know, I think that the Shire just wasn't the right place for him any more. Even with the Scouring, the hobbits were still hobbits, and I think that Frodo had changed more than any of them, even Sam, who managed to settle down, at least for a while, before going West.

Frodo, after facing so much hardship has changed, and I think that the Shire can no longer contain him. He is no longer the carefree Shire-hobbit that he once was, and I think, to continue growing the way he has, he needs to leave the simpler Shire-folk and go West with the Elves, most of whom have also experienced a lot of hardship, and are more serious folk. To continue to grow, he needs to live with those that understand what he has gone through, and what was going through at the end of the War of the Ring, and the hobbits of the Shire were too happy and carefree for him.

Frodo probably felt out of place in the shire, because he longer fitted in. He probably felt like he couldn't join in with all the carefree merriment and laughter (and maybe even couldn't take it) of the Shire-Hobbits, and he probably felt that he had to go. Even when the elves are having fun, it is much deeper, and I think that Frodo has become a more spiritual being after the whole ordeal, and is able to relate with the elves more than the hobbits. For example, maybe the light-hearted singing and music of the hobbits was too light-hearted (or maybe even irritating) for him, and he would enjoy the much more powerful beautiful singing of the elves.

Basically, I think in his transformation, Frodo has become more like an elf than a hobbit, and so can no longer fit in the Shire the way he used to, and needs to be with more similar-minded individuals.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Basically, I think in his transformation, Frodo has become more like an elf than a hobbit, and so can no longer fit in the Shire the way he used to, and needs to be with more similar-minded individuals.

I believe that Gildor said, before Frodo was even out of the Shire that Frodo was more like an elf than any other hobbit, moreso than Bilbo too... Perhaps this Elvishness about him grew?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

I believe that Gildor said, before Frodo was even out of the Shire that Frodo was more like an elf than any other hobbit, moreso than Bilbo too... Perhaps this Elvishness about him grew?

Well, you saw what happened with Sam when he had the ring for even a short time (Well, of course you'd know what the orcs thought he was ). Even he, who is such a humble character throughout, gets thoughts of taking control, very unhobbittish thoughts, and so imagine what all that time with the ring has done to Frodo's mind.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, you saw what happened with Sam when he had the ring for even a short time (Well, of course you'd know what the orcs thought he was ). Even he, who is such a humble character throughout, gets thoughts of taking control, very unhobbittish thoughts, and so imagine what all that time with the ring has done to Frodo's mind.

Yes, I indeed know what the orcs thought Sam was. If I didn't, I don't know why I even am here.

If the Ring did that to Sam, then Frodo's mind must have been swarming with unhobbitish thoughts.