censorship

The idea that conflict and heated exchange has no place here is very discouraging. Those who are the most passionate in regard to Tolkien will of course be the ones to respond with passion, and personally, whether positively or negatively. I find the threads that are filled with debate and conflict are the best. I love it when someone takes it personally and responds with zeal. Yeah. That's the best. If I have to play musical chairs with nine people including myself, and nine chairs, and we're all winners! Hoo-Ray! I THINK THAT SUCKS AND IS BORING. Thanks but no thanks.

What else is a forum for?
To engage
To challenge
to debate
To fellowship
To rejoice together
To celebrate
To do battle

If I cannot throw a little negitive into the mix to spice things up then see ya.
If someone gets their feelings hurt or feels threatened, I'd say, "OH,PLEASE!!!"
And now I'm gonna kick back and see if you censor this, or if you kick me off. I showed that I could compromise by editing and rewording my post and specifying that I meant no offense.
I really want to hear from others how they feel, and if the vote is against me, I'll leave you guys alone and sorry for the trouble!
I love the site though. What fun!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This post is not a book discussion, therefore I'm moving it to the Barrow-Downs section.

Posting rules for the Barrow-Downs are clearly stated on the forum. Those who do not wish to adhere to them have enough choices of forums with different styles. Opinions, as many different ones as there are members, are welcome, but we do not allow any members to insult others. Personal comments belong in PMs.

Being called Ms. Stalin is definitely an insult directed at me, but I have not eliminated the phrase from your post. You judge yourself by your own words.

[The Might]

I understand what mean by that, I too enjoy heated discussions, especially if both sides bring good arguments, however it is important to always keep in mind this is a family friendly site, and there are certain rules that shouldn't be broken, and certain lines that shouldn't be crossed.
As long as the discussion takes place within these boundaries I personally have no problem.
Censorship of words such as "damn" did seem to me sometimes as unnecessary considering what you see on the net or on TV these days, but I comply because these are the rules I as a member have to play by.
For some such constraints are too much, but I'm ok with that, since our whole society is based on certain rules.

For example comparing another member (who probably knows is the one targeted) to Joseph Stalin already implies crossing a line that you shouldn't cross.
Such things are much easier in RL, because you know who you're talking to, but on forums you need to take more care, you could be addressing a 9 year old girl or a 80 year old man, and this in a way you normally probably wouldn't.

Anyway, I hope you'll learn that you can have fun and enjoy the Downs even with all the rules, and that you won't leave the site.

Cheers, TM

PS: cross-posted with Esty

[davem]

There is a fine line between robust debate & personal insult - which some people don't get - not to mention the fact that what is obviously a joke to one person can be taken the wrong way by others - some people have objected to posts of mine which they considered 'offensive' when I was making jokes, or even simply quoting from comedy sketches - those who were offended didn't get the references. Some people are very eager to complain, but, as I know well, there is a line there & the mods/admins don't allow it to be crossed.

Now, there are some people you can argue with, even robustly - because you know them & they can take it. Its like water off a duck's back to them & they will come back fighting. Narfforc has a thick skin, a thick skull & a sharp tongue & is afraid of nothing & no-one, having spent many years in the British Army ('Her Majesty's Royal Straitjackets 'I think it was) & can kill a man at fifty yards with only a prongless plastic fork & a mean sneer. Others are more sensitive & can take what is intended as an innocent joke or snappy comeback as a hurtful insult.

You see - I know Narfforc in RL & he knows me. He knows I don't mean any offence & that I respect him as a friend & as an incredibly knowledgeable Tolkien fan, so he will (I hope) take what I just said in the jokey spirit in which it was intended - of course, if he reaches for the plastic fork I'll know I'm in trouble.

In short, wait till you know people. Don't leave though.

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

I understand that as the most profound spiritual revelation I have ever recieved. What do you think it means?

[narfforc]

I'm gonnnnnnna kill that Davem, where is that plastic spoon, sorry fork, and it's sixty yards, Neithan hide your forks....................

[davem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

, and it's sixty yards,

Well, you always claim its longer than it really is.....

[narfforc]

I will leave others to decide the truth of that statement Davem.

[Elmo]

I'm trying to be less ironic on this forum, some people don't understand it

[narfforc]

What ointment did you use on your fingers when you tried to rescue your useless season ticket, get one for GlasgowCeltic and you won't have to incinerate mashed trees.

[Elmo]

I've not went over to the dark side yet Narfforc

[narfforc]

Alex Ferguson, the greatest BRITISH maneger that has ever lived, sorry but he wasn't an elf and that's my last word.

[The Might]

I know we're getting really off-topic here, just wanted to say I like Heart of Midlothian, just for their logo

About that quote...don't really know what to say
Probably just a clear example of Iluvatar's power as he is teaching Melkor a lesson and making it clear that he's the boss.

[Bêthberry]

Being called Ms. Stalin is definitely an insult directed at me, but I have not eliminated the phrase from your post. You judge yourself by your own words.

This would be a great time to use that fluttering eye smilie--"What, lil ole me?--but it is not in the smilie list for use in this forum. Pity.

EDIT: Ah, I see the ad hominem attack has been removed from the post. Still, the very existence of this thread is a bit of a bore. Tiresome argument. Except for narfforc. He's always funny. Now I shall think of him as narffork.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Alex Ferguson, the greatest BRITISH maneger that has ever lived, sorry but he wasn't an elf and that's my last word.

Every time I hear the words Alex and Ferguson or Manchester and United now I'm going to associate them with that infamous insult of Gene Hunt's in Life On Mars involving Man U... ...won't repeat it here, if you know what I'm talking about you will know why.

But at least they're better than Liverpool.*

*with apologies to Rune, who cannot see the superior qualities of the colour blue.

Sorry, what were we discussing again?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You know, it's amazing how many people don't come here to talk about association football. I'm one of them, so I'll have to address the original point of this thread.

We have a set of rules in place at the Barrow-Downs. The choice we have all been given is to obey them or leave, and some popular and respected members have been banned over infringements of them. This has been done so that the Downs will not be one of those forums where newcomers who suggest provocative ideas can be flamed into oblivion by bad-tempered long-term members like me. It has also been done because we pride ourselves on the quality of our discussions, and, I think, because we're more concerned here with sharing opinions and information about Tolkien than doing battle or being challenged. This is a community, not a competition; although that's not to say that we want everyone to agree on every subject. Where there's disagreement, I tend to side with the most convincing argument rather than the most impassioned plea, because no amount of passion ever made night into day or twice two into nine. All I've ever seen it do is turn an interesting discussion into a slanging match, but this forum wouldn't afford very many examples of that because we have rules.

Davem makes a very good point: we don't know who's reading what we say, and who's to say that my idea of a sharp retort isn't a dire insult to someone else? Nobody has an inalienable right not to have people offend them, but that doesn't mean that we should all have free licence to offend in the name of debate; so we observe rules of courtesy: basically, no ad hominem attacks, keep to the subject, don't be sarcastic or abusive and make your point with facts and reasoning. It can be fun to see two very well-informed people swapping quotes and dancing on the line of acceptable behaviour, but I prefer to read informative arguments rather than expand my store of snide remarks. Some might argue from my recent posts that it's become rather too full already.

Anyway, that's quite enough response to this old chestnut. It was discussed way back in 2002, and has been revisited several times since. I find it as tiresome as Bêthberry does, but sometimes I torture myself by responding in several paragraphs when 'not again' was my initial reaction.

[EDIT] I now have 1,912 posts recorded under a picture of a Titanic survivor. I'm tempted never to post again.

pps. Although I did, almost immediately. So much for that idea.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

EDIT: Ah, I see the ad hominem attack has been removed from the post. Still, the very existence of this thread is a bit of a bore. Tiresome argument. Except for narfforc. He's always funny. Now I shall think of him as narffork.

Well, the 'fork' thing was my line, so I don't see why he should get praised for it...though it'll probably end up in his book.....

Last night as I lay gazing at the stars I was suddenly taken away by a vision; kinda like the Biblical tale Of Jacob wrestling the angel-Wow-it was incredible, Aragorn challenged me to train in swordmanship and hand-to-hand combat fundamentals and I beat him! I swear I did! It was the singlemost greastest night of my life.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

Last night as I lay gazing at the stars I was suddenly taken away by a vision; kinda like the Biblical tale Of Jacob wrestling the angel-Wow-it was incredible, Aragorn challenged me to train in swordmanship and hand-to-hand combat fundamentals and I beat him! I swear I did! It was the singlemost greastest night of my life.

I'd still bet on Narfforc with his plastic fork to beat you hands down.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, the 'fork' thing was my line, so I don't see why he should get praised for it...though it'll probably end up in his book.....

Apologies aplenty, and most sincerely offered.

It was a kind of false etymology (speaking of which on this forum I find I invariably first spell that word entymology). narffork seemed so much more applicable than spoonem or forkem. Although come to think of it, I can think of times that davork might have characterised certain statements--oh, wait, let's not go down that path, or I shall find that I become one Bathbelly, for having taken a bath on a bellyful of laughs.

Originally Posted by Squatter

[EDIT] I now have 1,912 posts recorded under a picture of a Titanic survivor. I'm tempted never to post again.

pps. Although I did, almost immediately. So much for that idea.

And I'ms sure we are all glad you did, although now I have thoughts of the Spectre of DK somehow related to sporking.

I suggest that as a symbol of our good intentions here we now spell the word "plastic" as "plastick." I bet I can come up with a false historical etymology for that too.

[Boromir88]

Freedom of speech...surely is a lovely and great freedom to have, and this is something you often hear from someone who is being 'punished' for saying something inappropriate...that their 'free speech' right has been infringed upon.

One thing to remember (and one thing people do forget) is our freedoms are not absolute. That means people can't just do and say whatever they want when the want...there is a line where your freedoms end and another's begins. When one infringes on another's freedom than that person has given up their freedoms.

I don't know how it is in the other countries around the world, but in the States not all free speech is protected under the Constitution. Check it out, you will find that slander (a malicious and false statement towards a person) and libel (defamation of a person by written/printed words or pictures) are not protected by the Constitution, therefor 'freedom of speech' doesn't mean you can say whatever the heck you want. (And I think the rules of this forum much like the Constitution...if you are a member of this forum you follow the 'rules.' If you have a problem with the rules, or feel you were punished unjustly you talk to the mods/admins to get everything 'ironed out.')

There is a huge difference between a great and passionate debate and slandering/insulting someone who disagrees with you. There have been many superb debates in this forum over the years that I've been here, most of them remain in good-spirit, because as Davem said we all get to know eachother. I haven't met anyone here, but I've been here for 3 years now and through discussion I've gotten to know many of the members and know that no one means any harm in what they are posting. I know people disagree with me all the time (though it would be so much easier for everyone to just agree with me ), I know they are still 'good' people (at least I hope )

Now, there are a few occasions when debates do get more passionate and we are humans, so we all make mistakes and say some things we don't really mean. I've been guilty of this several times, and it's not my intent to offend someone, so if I feel like I had then I'll PM the member and we'll get everything hatched out and come to an understanding. (Or a mod will come in and say 'stop it' ). It's similar to the teaching profession...the best way to protect yourself as a teacher is to talk to the parents and show them that you mean no harm to their kids...if you get the respect of the parents they won't be on your back all the time as they know you mean best for their kid. If the parent does not know you as a teacher nor as a person, they are more likely to side with their kid and jump down your throat when the kid goes home to complain about Mr. Emmons. The best way to protect yourself on a forum is being kind, courteous, and knowing that no one means any harm when they are posting their opinion. This keeps a good debate going, but leaves out all the pointless and 'unconstitutional' slander.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Although come to think of it, I can think of times that davork might have characterised certain statements-

I note that 'vork' is Dutch for fork. Another spooky synchronicity right there....

I was not going to say anything else but now I am irratated, if that's ok and no one is sad or afraid or discouraged by that...I agree with you one hundred percent the reason this issue came up is because I did not do any of those things and the reason for the existence of the constitutional protections you site is to protect individuals from untenible violations, point being who is to decide what is slander and defemation of character. For crying out loud! The moderator needs to be someone who has some good measure of discretion other wise every little good natured yet provacative tit for tat will be treated like criminal slander. Rediculous! But you people are really running it into the ground., My purpose for the topic was so that people could view the comments in question and then decide whether they met the bar but they had already been summarily deleted. UGHHHH! I thought it would be good to develope a more accurate standard of what is fun and competitive, meaning someone has to start the game, nudge nudge, cheap shot, and what is, as you and the other have so succinctly discribed in your lengthy posts as "Slander" and Defamation. Allright allright God forgive me for slandering and intimidated Naciso(can't remeber his name) although I didn't hear any victimized out cry from him. Help me moderator, Help me! This big mennie is gonna get me. Allow the MAN to take me on, and maybe just maybe kick my a..................
We are grown Men here, and we have no duty to retreat.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar

, My purpose for the topic was so that people could view the comments in question and then decide whether they met the bar but they had already been summarily deleted.

The point is some of us don't actually care how 'sharp' or 'antagonistic' your responses are - mainly because we could take anything you throw at us, turn it around & send it back at you so hard it would make your eyes water & you'd wish you'd never touched your keyboard - believe me, Narfforc could, I could, & so could many others on this board (Lal, Bb, Boromir, Squatter, & ... I'll stop there because we know who we are )- hence if you're 'censored' its as much for your good as anyone else's.

But other's can't do that & they would be hurt by too sharp a response. Some are even bothered by comments not aimed at them, but simply because they don't want to read them, some want to 'protect' other members - whether they need protecting or not. Its complicated & not a little boring to go into - hence the tendency to divert this thread inot something a bit more entertaining...

[The Might]

Umm...I guess moderators have the right to decide what is ok, and what not, since they were given that right by the Barrow-Wight. And he didn't choose them randomly, the moderators are definitely members who have proven they can handle such situations.
Also, I don't want to sound annoying, but I believe if you are unhappy with certain remarks being deleted by a moderator you should adress them or another member of the moderation team via PM.
I think you should just let it be, and forget that issue.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by davem

The point is some of us don't actually care how 'sharp' or 'antagonistic' your responses are - mainly because we could take anything you throw at us, turn it around & send it back at you so hard it would make your eyes water & you'd wish you'd never touched your keyboard - believe me, Narfforc could, I could, & so could many others on this board (Lal, Bb, Boromir, Squatter, & ... I'll stop there because we know who we are )- hence if you're 'censored' its as much for your good as anyone else's.

But other's can't do that & they would be hurt by too sharp a response.

Whether or not a person is witty has nothing to do with it. Most of us (I believe) just consider flame wars, whether they consist of decent grammar and spelling or not, to be childish and a waste of time, and, perhaps more importantly, a waste of bandwidth.

Let's take the Movies for example. Now because of my own, I guess very unique way of viewing Tolkien I dislike greatly the movies and I, forgive me!, feel a desire to explain why, not just blandly and in narrative style, but lively and personally, and, if I may, just ask that if anyone out thinks that the movies do Tolkien honor, and are good, and if you feel passionately about it, and would like to take me on, I would like the oppertunity to debate you in open forum. God I'm so ashamed!

[The Saucepan Man]

The purpose of the forum rules, to my mind, is primarily to maintain the essential (family friendly) nature of this site: a place for civilised, respectful, friendly and good-humoured discussion and debate, in keeping with the tone of Tolkien's works. That, in my view, is one of this site's greatest strengths. It marks it out from many other sites that I have visited and makes it the sort of place that I enjoy returning to time and time again.

Whether or not someone is bothered by rude, aggressive or insulting behaviour, whether or not they need protecting from it, and whether or not they can "give as good as they get" is not really the issue, as I see it. The fact is that such behaviour is unpleasant and out of keeping with the tone of the site.

In any event, I have never understood why anyone would consider rudeness, personal insults and generally obnoxious behaviour to be a worthwhile endeavour on a site devoted to Tolkien's works. None of these are necessary for, nor indeed, conducive to, constructive, intelligent and witty debate. There's enough unpleasantness in the world (and on other forums) without it needing to be spread around here.

My favorite chapter is "The Politburo of Elrond".

[davem]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Whether or not a person is witty has nothing to do with it. Most of us (I believe) just consider flame wars, whether they consist of decent grammar and spelling or not, to be childish and a waste of time, and, perhaps more importantly, a waste of bandwidth.

No, you misunderstand. I'm not talking about 'flamewars' here - no broadswords are necessary. If you check out Bb's post (no 47) in the 'Pre-baptism' thread you'll see how effective the stilletto can be.....

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

No, you misunderstand. I'm not talking about 'flamewars' here - no broadswords are necessary. If you check out Bb's post (no 47) in the 'Pre-baptism' thread you'll see how effective the stilletto can be.....

Moi? Goes off to see how I use this fashion accessory, careful to walk with a due care on these dangerous heels, as I am much more used to my Birkenstocks.

Originally Posted by Sauce

The purpose of the forum rules, to my mind, is primarily to maintain the essential (family friendly) nature of this site: a place for civilised, respectful, friendly and good-humoured discussion and debate, in keeping with the tone of Tolkien's works. That, in my view, is one of this site's greatest strengths. It marks it out from many other sites that I have visited and makes it the sort of place that I enjoy returning to time and time again.

I like this point, that the tone here endeavours to emulate Tolkien's own civility. I have always enjoyed his comment about his detractors. so witty.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I like this point, that the tone here endeavours to emulate Tolkien's own civility. I have always enjoyed his comment about his detractors. so witty.

Oh, I'm pretty sure the great man was capable of the withering put down, & if we recall Dyson's famous impromptu comment during one Inklings gathering re 'the ubiquity of *****Elves' we can be sure that their conversations would not always have been the usual 'Vicar's tea party' stuff. And personally, I don't feel that snappy comebacks & the demolishing of poor arguments is always bad - or even uninteresting come to that. However that's just me, & I accept that the Downs has its own policy re such things. If I want a verbal knife fight I take it outside.....

[alatar]

I think that the word we are looking for, Neithan Tol Turambar, is not censorship but entitlement. What gives you, me, the forked army - anyone - the right to post here? Maybe it's my understanding of freedom that is different. You can say and do whatever pleases you, just as the Barrow Wight can boot you off at any moment at his pleasure.

You are free to create your own site, ruled as you please, and can ban anyone bearing boring behaviour.

And by the by, welcome to the Downs!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have just came back from a political meeting and even though we are all friends debates can become very heated and therefor we all sit down and agree upon a set of rules for the debate beforehand.

This does not in anyway lessen the pation of the debate or the quality of the arguments, what it does do is to insure that "people goes for the ball instead of the man" to use a football term. If one cannot win arguments without using personal attacs and ect. then it is a sign of lack of skill.

and yes Lal, I do follow the reds!

although I suspect I will visit Goodison the next time I am in town.

[the guy who be short]

How heated could anybody get about Tolkien anyway?

[davem]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

How heated could anybody get about Tolkien anyway?

I don't get heated about Tolkien. I get heated when people won't accept what I tell them & argue with me when they know I'm right.

[Boromir88]

I get heated when people won't accept what I tell them & argue with me when they know I'm right.

But davem, I do that to you all the time

[davem]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But davem, I do that to you all the time

Well, you're a known troublemaker & I've no doubt you're being watched....

[Thenamir]

The Watchers are afoot...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

The Watchers are afoot...

A foot what? A foot long, a foot wide? I think we should be told!