Wizards - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-16-2002, 09:49 PM

Wizards seem to be quite a late race in LOTR comming to middle earth in the third age. They are not men, i think they where from Valinor? i'm not sure. Maybe someone here might know exactly who they are? and are they immortal or always old. Gandalf hardly seems to age in the 50 odd years between The Hobbit and LOTR and he was also around in the time of 'Old Took'. as well as that, he turns out to have the third elven ring. (given to him by Cirdan the Shipwight) was it given to him as he arrived on middle earth or as he was leaving? I hope i'm not asking too much.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-16-2002, 09:52 PM

You are definitely not asking too much. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
This question is actually answered in another thread here.

But to give you a quick answer:
The Wizards are the Istari, Maia that were sent from Valinor to combat the threat of Sauron. They took on flesh and the limits that go with it. They were Curumo the White (called Curunir and Saruman), Olorin the Gray (called Gandalf, Mithrandir, Incanus and Tharkun), Aiwendil the Brown (called Radagast), and Alatar and Pallando the Blue. The Ithryn Luin, or Blue Wizards, do not even enter into Lord of the Rings and are barely mentioned anywhere else.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

02-16-2002, 10:44 PM

AHHHHHHHH! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks a bunch!
[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-16-2002, 10:51 PM

No problem! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Legolas · 02-16-2002, 11:17 PM

The Valar sent the Istari in approximately 1000 of the Third Age to aid the people of Middle-earth. They originally only intended on sending three (Olorin, Curumo, and Alatar). Yavanna insists on Radagast going, and Alatar requests that Pallando comes along 'as a friend.'

Gandalf was given Narya by Cirdan upon his arrival to aid him in his quest. Cirdan immediately percieved that Gandalf, though shorter in stature, was greatest (in spirit, I believe the quote goes...no books handy! Gandalf was also the only one to stick to his mission.

Radagast strayed from his mission in favour of taking care of animals (especially birds) in his home of Rhosgobel along the outskirts of Mirkwood. He was obviously lesser in strength/wisdom and younger than the other Istari, as we see him tricked into summoning Gandalf to Orthanc and Saruman calling him a fool, among other things. His affiliation with the birds helped Gandalf, however, as he sent the Eagles to retrieve him (and it may be safe to assume Radagast is responsible for a couple of other instances when the eagles conveniently show up in the nick of time). He's also mentioned when Gandalf takes the dwarves and Bilbo (in The Hobbit) to Beorn...Beorn hasn't heard of Gandalf, but Gandalf mentions his 'cousin Radagast' whom Beorn is familiar with.

Saruman obviously strays from his mission too. Soon after their arrival to Middle-earth, Saruman accompanies Alatar and Pallando into the east of what we know as Middle-earth (only the northwest corner). Saruman returns after a thousand years (or is it two thousand?), but without the other two. Tolkien never specifies what became of them, but we're assured they fell to evil because he states Gandalf is the only one to stick to his mission.

The wizards wouldn't appear to age as much as men, they're immortal.

There's more details, if you'd like to know, but it's late!

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Elven-Maiden · 02-20-2002, 08:45 AM

Istari! I keep forgetting about those wizards! I wish we could have seen more of the other two. I just love Radagast! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] He's so innocent and in tune with nature! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eruhen · 02-25-2002, 01:02 PM

Wow, Bruce and Legolos! I couldn't have said it better myself!

But, Elven-Maiden, Radagast is so in tune with nature because he ended up forgetting his original mission, which was to help the Free Peoples overthrow Sauron. Though he is kinda cool, he was just too enamored of the things that Yavanna had made that he utterly forgot why he was in ME.

02-25-2002, 01:22 PM

Who knows, maybe Sarumen killed the blue wizards and there spirits went back to the west.

Maybe Alatar and Pallando did do great good for there cause and ended up going back, but it just wasn't mentioned in LOTR or "The Silm."?

They could have just as likely been corrupted by Sauron.

It would have made a great book to hear about the happenings of the blue istari.

Legolas · 02-26-2002, 02:11 PM

Perhaps Radagast made a conscious effort to ignore the task at hand. I imagine it wasn't one of his favorite things to think about. His name in Valinor, Aiwendil, means 'bird-lover' - it should've been no surprise to those looking on.

I doubt Alatar and Pallando were corrupted by Sauron, or even associated with him. Tolkien said "What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

Had they been associated with/corrupted by Sauron, they would've helped him fight Gandalf and his purposes.

I agree...it would've made a good book.

02-26-2002, 02:40 PM

Yes, but on pg. 395 in U.T. it says:

"Or were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, it is not known. But none of these chances were impossible to be;"

So they could have been corrupted by Sauron and used to do other evil deeds in the east besides be involved in the attack on Gondor or gandalf. Maybe they were corrupted, but died before the war of the ring. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Thranduil · 08-14-2002, 10:11 AM

WOW! Cool stuff!

But quick question for Legolas--

You said 1000 Istari were sent to Middle-Earth, but I've read (in the books of course) that there were only 5. What did the remaing 995 wizards do?

Also, where did you find this stuff? Thanks

Rimbaud · 08-14-2002, 10:55 AM

Legolas is referring to the Year 1000 of the Third Age, not to the number of Istari. There were, of course, only five.

Thranduil · 08-14-2002, 10:56 AM

AHAHAHA! I see....

Boy, do I feel stupid
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Oroaranion · 01-01-2004, 03:08 PM

Is it possible for Alatar and Pallando to have forsaken their immortality?

And if they did create their 'cults', where and what would they have been?

Finwe · 01-01-2004, 03:10 PM

I don't think that Alatar and Pallando would have forsaken their immortality, had it even been possible. The only possibility is that they fell in love with a Human, but then again, I don't think that falling in love with random Humans was part of their mission. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As for the cults, it is speculation. All the concrete information that we have is that they disappeared and were never heard from again. We know that they might have started cults or had followers, but we don't know anything else about them.

Lord of Angmar · 01-01-2004, 03:12 PM

Quote:

There were, of course, only five.

Just to clear this up, five is the just the number of Istari known to have entered into Middle-earth. Tolkien hinted that there may well have been more.

I do not think it would be possible for Allatar and Pallando do forsake their immortality, since it was not a Gift of Eru to his Children, per se, but was in their very nature as gods or demigods.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:14 PM January 01, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

Finwe · 01-01-2004, 03:14 PM

Why would there have been any more? The Istari were sent to inspire the populace to fight against Sauron, and the enemies of Sauron lived in Eriador, where the Five were sent. There wouldn't have been much of a point in sending any more Istari to other places because, for the most part, we don't know if any enemies of Sauron existed there.

Olorin_TLA · 01-01-2004, 07:40 PM

Well there's (1 to my knowledge) referece that "cheif of the Istari in Middle-earth were 5"(paraphrase)...however, I think his later writing only ever mention 5. And only 5 are mentioned in the COuncil of the Valar where they are chosen.

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 01-01-2004, 07:55 PM

I remember a quote somewhat like that, but i thought it said that saruman was the chief of the five wizards... I dont know, i may be wrong.

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-01-2004, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Just to clear this up, five is the just the number of Istari known to have entered into Middle-earth.

Forum FAQ: How many Wizards were there? by Sharkû.

02-16-2002, 09:49 PM	#1
Talin Guest Posts: n/a	Wizards Wizards seem to be quite a late race in LOTR comming to middle earth in the third age. They are not men, i think they where from Valinor? i'm not sure. Maybe someone here might know exactly who they are? and are they immortal or always old. Gandalf hardly seems to age in the 50 odd years between The Hobbit and LOTR and he was also around in the time of 'Old Took'. as well as that, he turns out to have the third elven ring. (given to him by Cirdan the Shipwight) was it given to him as he arrived on middle earth or as he was leaving? I hope i'm not asking too much. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

02-16-2002, 09:52 PM	#2
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	You are definitely not asking too much. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] This question is actually answered in another thread here. But to give you a quick answer: The Wizards are the Istari, Maia that were sent from Valinor to combat the threat of Sauron. They took on flesh and the limits that go with it. They were Curumo the White (called Curunir and Saruman), Olorin the Gray (called Gandalf, Mithrandir, Incanus and Tharkun), Aiwendil the Brown (called Radagast), and Alatar and Pallando the Blue. The Ithryn Luin, or Blue Wizards, do not even enter into Lord of the Rings and are barely mentioned anywhere else. [ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ] [ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ] __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

02-16-2002, 10:51 PM	#4
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	No problem! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

02-16-2002, 11:17 PM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The Valar sent the Istari in approximately 1000 of the Third Age to aid the people of Middle-earth. They originally only intended on sending three (Olorin, Curumo, and Alatar). Yavanna insists on Radagast going, and Alatar requests that Pallando comes along 'as a friend.' Gandalf was given Narya by Cirdan upon his arrival to aid him in his quest. Cirdan immediately percieved that Gandalf, though shorter in stature, was greatest (in spirit, I believe the quote goes...no books handy! Gandalf was also the only one to stick to his mission. Radagast strayed from his mission in favour of taking care of animals (especially birds) in his home of Rhosgobel along the outskirts of Mirkwood. He was obviously lesser in strength/wisdom and younger than the other Istari, as we see him tricked into summoning Gandalf to Orthanc and Saruman calling him a fool, among other things. His affiliation with the birds helped Gandalf, however, as he sent the Eagles to retrieve him (and it may be safe to assume Radagast is responsible for a couple of other instances when the eagles conveniently show up in the nick of time). He's also mentioned when Gandalf takes the dwarves and Bilbo (in The Hobbit) to Beorn...Beorn hasn't heard of Gandalf, but Gandalf mentions his 'cousin Radagast' whom Beorn is familiar with. Saruman obviously strays from his mission too. Soon after their arrival to Middle-earth, Saruman accompanies Alatar and Pallando into the east of what we know as Middle-earth (only the northwest corner). Saruman returns after a thousand years (or is it two thousand?), but without the other two. Tolkien never specifies what became of them, but we're assured they fell to evil because he states Gandalf is the only one to stick to his mission. The wizards wouldn't appear to age as much as men, they're immortal. There's more details, if you'd like to know, but it's late! [ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-20-2002, 08:45 AM	#6
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Istari! I keep forgetting about those wizards! I wish we could have seen more of the other two. I just love Radagast! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] He's so innocent and in tune with nature! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-16-2002, 10:44 PM	#3
Talin Guest Posts: n/a	AHHHHHHHH! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks a bunch! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

02-25-2002, 01:02 PM	#7
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Wow, Bruce and Legolos! I couldn't have said it better myself! But, Elven-Maiden, Radagast is so in tune with nature because he ended up forgetting his original mission, which was to help the Free Peoples overthrow Sauron. Though he is kinda cool, he was just too enamored of the things that Yavanna had made that he utterly forgot why he was in ME. __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

02-25-2002, 01:22 PM	#8
Shire_Folk Guest Posts: n/a	Who knows, maybe Sarumen killed the blue wizards and there spirits went back to the west. Maybe Alatar and Pallando did do great good for there cause and ended up going back, but it just wasn't mentioned in LOTR or "The Silm."? They could have just as likely been corrupted by Sauron. It would have made a great book to hear about the happenings of the blue istari.

02-26-2002, 02:11 PM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Perhaps Radagast made a conscious effort to ignore the task at hand. I imagine it wasn't one of his favorite things to think about. His name in Valinor, Aiwendil, means 'bird-lover' - it should've been no surprise to those looking on. I doubt Alatar and Pallando were corrupted by Sauron, or even associated with him. Tolkien said "What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." Had they been associated with/corrupted by Sauron, they would've helped him fight Gandalf and his purposes. I agree...it would've made a good book. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-26-2002, 02:40 PM	#10
Shire_Folk Guest Posts: n/a	Yes, but on pg. 395 in U.T. it says: "Or were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, it is not known. But none of these chances were impossible to be;" So they could have been corrupted by Sauron and used to do other evil deeds in the east besides be involved in the attack on Gondor or gandalf. Maybe they were corrupted, but died before the war of the ring. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

08-14-2002, 10:11 AM	#11
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	WOW! Cool stuff! But quick question for Legolas-- You said 1000 Istari were sent to Middle-Earth, but I've read (in the books of course) that there were only 5. What did the remaing 995 wizards do? Also, where did you find this stuff? Thanks

08-14-2002, 10:55 AM	#12
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Legolas is referring to the Year 1000 of the Third Age, not to the number of Istari. There were, of course, only five. __________________ And all the rest is literature

08-14-2002, 10:56 AM	#13
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	AHAHAHA! I see.... Boy, do I feel stupid [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

01-01-2004, 03:08 PM	#14
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	Is it possible for Alatar and Pallando to have forsaken their immortality? And if they did create their 'cults', where and what would they have been? __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

01-01-2004, 03:10 PM	#15
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think that Alatar and Pallando would have forsaken their immortality, had it even been possible. The only possibility is that they fell in love with a Human, but then again, I don't think that falling in love with random Humans was part of their mission. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] As for the cults, it is speculation. All the concrete information that we have is that they disappeared and were never heard from again. We know that they might have started cults or had followers, but we don't know anything else about them. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-01-2004, 03:14 PM	#17
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Why would there have been any more? The Istari were sent to inspire the populace to fight against Sauron, and the enemies of Sauron lived in Eriador, where the Five were sent. There wouldn't have been much of a point in sending any more Istari to other places because, for the most part, we don't know if any enemies of Sauron existed there. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-01-2004, 07:40 PM	#18
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Well there's (1 to my knowledge) referece that "cheif of the Istari in Middle-earth were 5"(paraphrase)...however, I think his later writing only ever mention 5. And only 5 are mentioned in the COuncil of the Valar where they are chosen. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

01-01-2004, 07:55 PM	#19
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	I remember a quote somewhat like that, but i thought it said that saruman was the chief of the five wizards... I dont know, i may be wrong. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!