soldiers available in ME

I read somewhere on this forum that Rohan had aproximately 20,000 men in cavalry and infantry after helms deep. I was curious as to how many soldiers other kingdoms and areas of ME had at the time
Good
-Gondor(bigger than rohan so maybe 40,000?)
-Mirkwood
-Lórien
-Rivendell(not many)
-Lindon(not many)
-Men of Dale
-Dwarves of Lonely Mountain
-Beornings(not many)
-Rangers of the North(30 of grey company, some left behind?)

Bad
-Sauron in Mordor and Don Guldur
-Saruman and Dunlendings
-Harad
-Khand
-Rhun
-Umbar
-various orcs of Misty Mountains

I'm not sure how many references are made in any of the books, but any information or estimates would be helpful. I'm just trying to get a scope for the forces available during the the war of the ring

[The Might]

I think it's very, very hard to say.
The only more correct numbers I know of are those from Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth, since they are based on certain quotes in the books. However clear numbers do not exist.
For example, it seems pretty clear that much more Men served Sauron, for example the slaves mentioned in LotR that work near the Sea of Nurnen...so exact numbers can't be given in this case
With the good guys it might be easier, but again only speculative numbers based on the books.

[goldfinger]

Actually if you read Christphers notes in the UT he says that the Rohirrim had around 12,000.

I have done a lot of research on this and I've come up with some figures (note. I did this through estimations of populations through military numbers mentioned in the UT, LotR and the Hobbit) that are quite interesting and I believe pretty close to being right on the mark.

Gondor: 28,000-30,000.

Rohan: 12,000.

Elves of Mirkwood: 3-4,000.

Lorien: 2-3,000.

Kingdom of Dale: 3-6,000.

Dwarves of the Iron Hills: 8-10,000.

Dwarves of Erebor: 4-6,000.

Lindon: 2-5,000

Evil

Mordor: 100-200,000

Rhun: 14-25,000

Harad: 30-40,000

Khand: 15-20,000

Goblins of the Misty Mts: 6-10,000

Dol Guldur: 8-10,000

Those are the ones that can be more easily estimated. Of the Beornings and Woodmen , it would be difficult to calculate since they are barely ever mentioned, but otherwise I think these numbers should be near if not spot on with the numbers.

[Kuruharan]

Dwarves of the Iron Hills: 8-10,000.

Dwarves of Erebor: 4-6,000.

I have to say I disagree with those. If anything it would be the reverse.

I also think that those numbers are too high. Maybe 4-6,000 might be okay for the Lonely Mountain, but the Iron Hills would be much lower than that.

[The Might]

I'd add also Isengard with ~ 10000 orcs

[goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I have to say I disagree with those. If anything it would be the reverse.

I also think that those numbers are too high. Maybe 4-6,000 might be okay for the Lonely Mountain, but the Iron Hills would be much lower than that.

I forgot to say that the Iron Hills numbers were taken from the time of the Hobbit. Thge Iron Hills was the most capable country in the North to stand in the way of Sauron at the time of the Hobbit, so I calculated that if the 500 that were at the Battle of Five Armies was just around five-ten percent of Dain's army then it would be around 5-10,000. So in a sense it is logical number.
Erebor's numbers were taken from a rough estimate of around 4- to 600,000 Dwarves living in the mountain, and just taking one percent of there population, Considering that active armies (aka trained career soldiers) throughout history have been from as small as less than one percent to as much as five 8 percent of the the population.

[The Might]

600.000 Dwarves were living there?

All this speculation is making me confused

[Kuruharan]

Thge Iron Hills was the most capable country in the North to stand in the way of Sauron at the time of the Hobbit, so I calculated that if the 500 that were at the Battle of Five Armies was just around five-ten percent of Dain's army then it would be around 5-10,000. So in a sense it is logical number.

Just because it was "most" capable doesn't equal "very" capable.

I am also a little puzzled by that remark by Gandalf because it ignores the Woodland Realm which was also in the area and had more soldiers at the Battle of Five Armies, but perhaps they would have been taken up by Dol Guldur, but that is a discussion for another time.

I have a problem with the arbitrary decision that the 500 dwarves was just 5-10% of Dain's army. Why do you think that? I think Dain would have brought every dwarf he could spare because of the critical nature of the enterprise. While I agree that perhaps Dain did not bring along every dwarf of his who could bear arms, I think he would have brought the vast majority of them.

To the best of my understanding the Iron Hills had never been much more than an outpost. If it had been more than that, why wouldn't the Kings of Durin's Folk have relocated there after the Lonely Mountain fell? I think Dain brought few dwarves because he had few to bring.

Also, the dwarves were never a numerous people when compared to Men and orcs, especially during this time of their decline.

I agree that the number of dwarves in the Iron Hills should be lower than those at the Lonely Mountain by the time of the war of the ring.
Also I'm not sure if Lindon should have that big of an army. I was always under the impression that Lindon was more like Rivendell and couldn't field a substantial army like Mirkwood or Lorien

[ninja91]

600,000 dwarves?!?!?! Nonsense. A force like that could almost storm through Mordor itself. If the above calculations are correct, that would be twice as many as all the baddies in Mordor. 600,000 dwarves... I'm sorry, but no way.

Also, I would guess that there are around 500 to 1500 elves in Rivendell. Any stronghold like that would be somewhat fortified, because at one point they expected Sauron to attack Rhudaur, and Rivendell in particular.

It is also hard to say how many were in Umbar. Seeing as how they were known for their Corsairs and not their foot soldiers, that number is impossible to find.

[goldfinger]

Originally Posted by ninja91

600,000 dwarves?!?!?! Nonsense. A force like that could almost storm through Mordor itself. If the above calculations are correct, that would be twice as many as all the baddies in Mordor. 600,000 dwarves... I'm sorry, but no way.

Also, I would guess that there are around 500 to 1500 elves in Rivendell. Any stronghold like that would be somewhat fortified, because at one point they expected Sauron to attack Rhudaur, and Rivendell in particular.

It is also hard to say how many were in Umbar. Seeing as how they were known for their Corsairs and not their foot soldiers, that number is impossible to find.

You miss interpreted what I said. I meant the Dwarven Population not there military force.

[goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I have to say I disagree with those. If anything it would be the reverse.

I also think that those numbers are too high. Maybe 4-6,000 might be okay for the Lonely Mountain, but the Iron Hills would be much lower than that.

Before this comes to a bashing of me and my calculations, I encourage you to go read the Durin's folk in Appendix A, in the beginning of when it talks about Gandalf's worries about the North. It says:

"Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended to attack Rivendell. But to RESIST ANY ATTEMPT FROM THE EAST to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now ONLY THE DWARVES OF THE IRON HILLS"

Now Tolkien doesn't say Elves or Men but the Iron Hills. If at the time Dain could only muster a force of "500" Dwarves while Sauron could muster thousands, and the Elves of Mirkwood could muster more than a thousand, wouldn't it be the other way around?
So to me your statement makes no sense, because if what you were saying is so then the Elves should be much weaker than the Dwarves.
So why are you puzzled? obviously, the Iron Hills had a military superiority over the Elves.

About the Iron Hills. The Iron Hills was not an outpost at this time in history. around half of Durin's folk lived there, since most of those that survived Smaug went to the Iron Hills, except for those led by Thror, and those who still dwelt in the Ered Mithrin and elsewhere.

Why did Thror not take his people to the Iron Hills? I do not know for Tolkien didn't say, But would it matter if it was an outpost or not? He may have went elsewhere out of respect for his brother's lordom of the Hills or maybe it wasn't a desirable place for him to live or maybe he was such a proud king that he wanted to make it on his own, I don't know. But still would it matter if it were an outpost or not?

I haven't seen anywhere in Tolkiens works (which I haven't read all of yet) so far, that says that the Dwarves were very few. I think we as readers kind of just figured they were but, what it says is that they slowly increase as race, and when they do not have a secure dwelling are in danger of not having any reproduction.

Lastly, you wondered why I calculated the Iron Hills army at 8-10,000. Well I did it out of studying military patterns from real life and from the books. From them I figured if Durin's folk had an average population of 1,000,000 people throughout the the mid to late third age, and you broke it up I figured that the Iron Hills after Smaug was around 2-300,000 people and later around 3-500,000 (I will retract my calculation of 600,000). While Thorin had around 2-400,000 people in the Ered Luin (after his fathers capture) since his population was growing from the wandering Durin's folk . And of course we can't orget those wanderers and colonies in the Ered Mithrin and elsewhere which may have been in the tens of thousands.
So if the Iron Hills had from 1 to 5 percent of it men in the military it would come out to 5-10,000. For these are the percentages most militarys come from in almost every country on earth.

I hope this answers your questions and I'm sorry if my figures are proposterous to you and anyone else. I'm was just trying to think figuratively and logically.

I don't think anyone is, or meant to bash you or your figures. I think most of the estimates you came up with are very reasonable. While maybe the Iron Hill numbers are too high, there is no decisive answer and your guess is as good as any of ours. No hard feelings, we're all just trying to come up with figures from incomplete information.

[Kuruharan]

So to me your statement makes no sense, because if what you were saying is so then the Elves should be much weaker than the Dwarves.
So why are you puzzled? obviously, the Iron Hills had a military superiority over the Elves.

Before this comes to a bashing of me and my statements, I encourage you to re-read what I said, specifically…

Just because it was "most" capable doesn't equal "very" capable.

…and…

the Woodland Realm…but perhaps they would have been taken up by Dol Guldur

Next, I encourage you to go read the essay “Of Dwarves and Men” and note what it says about the Iron Hills being on the periphery of the Longbeard’s empire.

around half of Durin's folk lived there, since most of those that survived Smaug went to the Iron Hills, except for those led by Thror, and those who still dwelt in the Ered Mithrin and elsewhere.

Another thing I find puzzling is where you found where it said that half the dwarves lived there.

I haven't seen anywhere in Tolkiens works (which I haven't read all of yet) so far, that says that the Dwarves were very few.

I also encourage you to re-read Of Durin’s Folk where the low birthrate and the following low population are explained. Also note where the dwarves are described as being a declining race in the Third Age.

Lastly, you wondered why I calculated the Iron Hills army at 8-10,000. Well I did it out of studying military patterns from real life and from the books. From them I figured if Durin's folk had an average population of 1,000,000 people throughout the the mid to late third age, and you broke it up I figured that the Iron Hills after Smaug was around 2-300,000 people and later around 3-500,000 (I will retract my calculation of 600,000). While Thorin had around 2-400,000 people in the Ered Luin (after his fathers capture) since his population was growing from the wandering Durin's folk . And of course we can't orget those wanderers and colonies in the Ered Mithrin and elsewhere which may have been in the tens of thousands.
So if the Iron Hills had from 1 to 5 percent of it men in the military it would come out to 5-10,000. For these are the percentages most militarys come from in almost every country on earth.

I hope this answers your questions and I'm sorry if my figures are proposterous to you and anyone else. I'm was just trying to think figuratively and logically.

Ahem…yes well, I’ll just say that I’m not sure you are viewing the dwarven population in entirely appropriate terms regarding where their soldiers came from. I was always rather under the impression that pretty much all male dwarves fought.

[Rumil]

Very very tricksy question for a number of reasons.....

JRRT rarely mentions concrete numbers and if one follows the 'translator conceit' characters might estimate numbers unreliably, except Ghan-buri-Ghan of course.

Middle Earth population density appears to be bizarrely low (see Michael Martinez ) on the other hand, if you happen to be, for example, a peasant of Rohan, you have no option but to become a soldier if the orcs attack. You get the impression that in Medieval or Dark Age times the majority of the population was sensibly uninvolved and uninterested in fighting, for example the English at the battle of Hastings had about 8000 men out of an estimated population of at least 1 million. The likelihood of being eaten by one's opponents would surely ensure greater motivation?

Saying that I shall have a go at a few guesses and comments, based on goldfinger's list


Gondor: 28,000-30,000.

Probably not far out, Bergil or someone critcises the allies for sending about 3000 to Minas Tirith, which is reckoned 'a tithe' of their strength, but is probably exaggerating, so adding in the Minas Tirith forces would bring us back to about this number.

Rohan: 12,000.

There's a reference in HoME to Rohan having 10,000 well armed cavalry and 10,000 infantry and men on ponies (mounted infantry?), so I'd say 20-22,000. The 12,000 refers to the cavalry establishment of Rohan before the War of the Ring and losses at the Fords of the Isen and Helm's Deep.

Elves of Mirkwood: 3-4,000.

Seems logical, guessimated at battle of 5 armies at about 2500, but Thranduil must have left some people at home.

Lorien: 2-3,000.

Gut feeling says a few more than this, on the order of 4-5000, don't know why!

Kingdom of Dale: 3-6,000.

Tricky one, presumably this would include Esgaroth? I'd go for the lower end, say 3000 as they were re-establishing after much destruction etc.

Dwarves of the Iron Hills: 8-10,000.

Following, or in spite of!? the previous comments, I think there are far fewer Dwarves left. They had suffered badly at Nanduhirion and Erebor and multiplied only slowly. Perhaps 2000?

Dwarves of Erebor: 4-6,000.

Again I'd go for a lesser number, perhaps 2000?

Lindon: 2-5,000

Probably lower end again, they will keep on sailing away these elves! Also includes maybe a couple of hundred at Rivendell.

Other places..

The Shire, Bree - lots and lots of hobbits, the question is how 'soldierlike' they were!

Beornings and Woodmen - not very many, maybe 1500 at most?


Evil

Mordor: 100-200,000

At least

Rhun: 14-25,000

Difficult to guess, I wonder what proportion of the Easterlings Sauron deployed to the West?

Harad: 30-40,000

Probably more, including the Corsairs and whoever was left back at Umbar

Khand: 15-20,000

Probably less, doesn't seem like a very fertile sort of place

Goblins of the Misty Mts: 6-10,000

Seems OK

Dol Guldur: 8-10,000

Probably more, it was reoccupied with 'sevenfold strength' before the War of the Ring, maybe 20-30,000

Other places....

Isengard - about 15-20,000 (10,000 orcs are mentioned by Gandalf but there are Dunlendings etc to consider and by Helm's Deep there have been many losses, however Merry and Pippin give 10,000 in all so someone is mistaken here!).

So for the 'good guys' at least I'd go for a very low population but a very high proportion of military service, at least when necessary. For example in Minas Tirith all the men were expected to stay and defend the city. Only a small minority could have been career soldiers, otherwise the economy would have collapsed, but most must have formed some sort of 'citizen militia'.

Anyway thats my pennysworth, I'm off to get some chips

[ninja91]

Originally Posted by goldfinger

You miss interpreted what I said. I meant the Dwarven Population not there military force.

Even at that, there is no way there are that many dwarves still dwelling in the north. Out of those 600,000 there would have to be probably around 100,000 to 150,000 or more able fighters, and even that is still outrageous.

[Kuruharan]

I just came across a rather interesting note in "The Making of Appendix A."

It says...

...and in the Battle before the Gate of Moria ten thousand orcs were slain.

Admittedly, this tidbit of information was taken out before it saw the light of day, but I think it can give some insight into what Tolkien was thinking.

A few provisional observations can be gleaned from this.

1) The loss of 10,000 orcs was enough to cripple the orcs of the Misty Mountains for something like a century.

2) Part of this crippling was due to many of the survivors of Azanulbizar fleeing southward to trouble Rohan and Gondor, with serious trouble there starting only 2 years later. This argues that substantial numbers of orcs managed to escape from the battle.

3) The dwarves were outnumbered at the battle of Azanulbizar. This means the total number of Longbeards (assuming that virtually all male dwarves fought) was probably less than 10,000. It must also be remembered that some other Houses sent forces, although we don't know if all the Houses sent forces or how many soldiers they would have sent. The forces sent by the other Houses were described as "great" and Gandalf speaks of "all the dwarves from the four corners of the earth" which implies a pretty all-out effort. When this is considered the number of Longbeards (or for that matter, any other kind of dwarf) plummets considerably. It must also be remembered that only half the dwarf-host made it out of battle alive.

4) On the other hand, if one assumes that perhaps a similar proportion of orcs made it out, which in my view is plausible given the orcish tendency to bolt at the first sign of real trouble and the difficulties that dwarves would have in pursuit not having cavalry, that would mean that the orcish army at Azanulbizar was around 20,000. This would probably mean that the total for the dwarf-host was possibly a few thousand above 10,000 as massively outnumbered armies tend not to succeed in open field battle even if they are more courageous and better armed, particularly if they are fighting from a serious tactical disadvantage.

[goldfinger]

It makes one wonder why the Dwarves fought in those conditions? considering their very large disadvantage tactically. I mean they could have just stayed on the other side of the river Silverlode and waited till morning, then entered Moria and destroyed the Goblins where they would have a better advantage. Of course I must take into account their pride and also the fact they could see very well in the dark compared to most races ,so it may have made them think irrationally.

[Kuruharan]

I think it was a situation similar to Ramesses II at the Second Battle of Kadesh. Thrain didn't know that the orc armies where there.

In fact, there are a number of parallels to the Battle of Kadesh...

Army taken by surprise by the enemy, leader gets surrounded, has to fight his way out, army saved at the last minute by the arrival of reinforcements...