Words and Names in Tolkien's Work

[Lalwendë]

I've been exploring some of the words and names created by Tolkien, and looking at how they relate (or not) to existing words, and having a little fun in speculating. I've not just been struck by corresponding meanings, which can often be so different as to be quite jarring, but also by the similarity in the sound and shape of the words.

I was chatting to tgwbs, who is a keen linguist, and said I'd been thinking of starting up a thread which has a simple aim: To compare names and words created by Tolkien with words in use in the real world. It can be fun where we speculate, and I encourage wild speculation, and it can also be really useful for our understanding where we spot a genuine correspondence - not just our understanding of Tolkien but our understanding of our own languages. So be as speculative or as much of a linguist as you like. No need to be an expert, but language experts are equally welcome! All I'd ask is that we give each word we look at a fair chance and discuss it a little at least, to avoid this just becoming a 'list'.

And of course Tolkien was fond of playing around with words in exactly this way!

So I'll kick it off with Thingol.

Thingol in Tolkien's world means Greycloak. It's a word I like the sound and feel of, as it reminds me of old Viking place names - among them Thingwall and Dingwall, and of the name of the Manx parliament, the Tynwald. Looking up the root, thing, brings the information that this roughly translates as 'assembly' or 'court', descending through time to mean 'business' and 'purpose' to meaning 'object' as it does today.

Now given that, do you think Tolkien chose thing as a root for this name because it suggests leadership, authority? Or something else?

[Raynor]

Thingol evolved from Linwe Tinto, through many states, such as Tingoglint, or Tinweling. Both roots of the original name are somewhat related (tin: spark, glint, star; and lint: quick, nimble, light). Chris notes that Tolkien must have been impressed by the (esperando?) word lint from an early stage of his linguistic constructions - in relation to his father's comments in the "A secret vice" essay.

[The Saucepan Man]

For me, a curious name to start with, Lal.

This may sound silly, but its a genuine reaction.

I find Thingol to be one of my least favourite names in Tolkien's works. Simply because of the word "thing", which to me denotes a generalised and unspecified, and therefore rather unimportant, item. The association with "thingamajig" or "thingamabob" or just plain "thingy", makes me think of someone or something which is so drab that one cannot be bothered to recall its proper name.

Sorry but, as I said, it's a genuine reaction. And it colours my view of the character. I find him uninteresting.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

His Quenya name is Elwë Singollo, which sounds much more euphonious. Although I never found it particularly boring, I had noticed the similarity of Thingol and thingy before. I think I used the name Ereyu Thingy in one of the REB episodes, but I forget where.

I think that the real danger in examining Sindarin and Quenya names for real-world parallels is that the names as they stand now are the result of years of invention and development. They follow phonological and grammatical rules that Tolkien devised independently of individual names or characters, so that any search for correspondances is in danger of pointing out nothing but coincidences.

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #297

But I remain puzzled , and indeed sometimes irritated, by many of the guesses at the 'sources' of the nomenclature, and theories or fancies concerning hidden meanings. These seem to me no more than private amusements, and as such I have no right or power to object to them, though they are, I think, valueless for the elucidation or interpretation of my fiction...
the bulk of the nomenclature is constructed from these pre-existing [invented] languages, and where the resulting names have analysable meanings (as is usual) these are relevant solely to the fiction with which they are integrated. The 'source', if any, provided solely the sound-sequence (or suggestions for its stimulus) and its purport in the source is totally irrelevant except in case of Earendil...

Since we already know about Eärendil, and since Thingol is pure Sindarin with a definite meaning in that language, I'll just throw the Telerin/Greek (the former intentionally, the latter coincidentally) name Teleporno into the mix and see what can be made of it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting topic idea, Lal! I would like to add something from the German linguistic background - the word "Thing" is indeed an old word meaning ruling assembly or council, also the place where that assembly was held.

The annual meeting of the German Tolkien Society is called "Tolkien Thing" - a name which met with some puzzled laughs when I mentioned it to friends here.

There is also a "Thing Street" in the village where I live.

We do know that Tolkien knew the Germanic languages well and that they have some similar background to the Nordic languages which were an inspiration for his Elvish languages. It is possible that the idea of rulership was a part of the "leaf-mould" for Thingol's name. It's all speculation, of course, but when did we ever let that stop an interesting discussion?!

[Lalwendë]

Squatter - a bit of mere coincidence is no matter, I'm intending this to be fun. I was thinking partly about the fascinating speculation we had on the Chapter by Chapter threads; they gave me a lot of new ideas to ponder on, and we had some brief forays into words there. What do you reckon to a bit of fun with words?

Liking the reactions to the word thing! Especially the Tolkien Thing! I suppose it's a name which gets my attention due to the place-name Thingwall, a place where I have relatives - it's quite a spiky word I suppose, but I have always preferred the sound of Germanic words to Latin ones. Thingol being a more 'modern' variant of Singollo is interesting, suggesting a change in the actual way that the elves spoke - just make the sounds th and s and see the difference; the sound th is a much quieter sound, maybe suggesting a need to be quieter?

Teleporno is an odd name to me as it sounds Latin. Funnily enough while I was looking up Thingol I came eventually to the name Incanus for Gandalf which Tolkien had thought was maybe a bit too Latin (but which happily suggests incantation, a thing you imagine wizards engaging in...). Isn't tele Latin for 'vision' or 'sight'?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I understand now, Lalwendë. It's always worth kicking these things off with a caveat or disclaimer of some sort, though. My arguments below should be taken as light-hearted musing.

I like þing, and in the place-names you mentioned we can see the effect on it of interaction between speakers of Norse and Celtic languages in Scotland and the North of England. It's in the mouths of speakers of Gaelic that þ becomes d, so the place-names preserve an idea of the cosmopolitan society, particularly of the North-West of England and southern Scotland in the early-medieval period. In the place-names you mentioned, the wall comes from Old Norse vǫllr: 'field', so that Dingwall is 'the field of the assembly'.

In the cultures that spoke Old Norse, the Thing was more than a political assembly: it was also a legal, mercantile and social event, often the only time that certain families would see one another before it was next held. The Icelandic Alþing was a great annual event, at which the Lawspeaker would recite from memory the laws of Iceland (Snorri Sturluson, author of the Prose Edda, was once Lawspeaker to the Althing). Legal cases were argued and judged, business was done and marriages and other social arrangements made. Any changes to the law were also discussed by senior figures. It's probable that there was also a religious element to the Althing before the advent of Christianity, and there is an account in Njals Saga of the period of crisis when the new faith was discussed there.

A thing, then, is more than a regional assembly in today's language; and in Iceland the Althing, with its courts and legal experts, stood in place of a king. It is a well-known story that Edward I once held a parliament under the Parliament Oak at Clipston in Sherwood Forest in 1282, and this is a perfect illustration of the idea that all that was required for a parliament was the presence of the king and his chief nobles at a given place. Returning to Thingwall, then: what if we regard Thingol's name as a corruption of Þingvǫllr? Being King of Doriath, he is the focal point of an assembly and therefore the field or place of the Thing. If we were inclined to translate his name using medieval languages, we could call it an oblique way of describing his central place in the lives of the Sindar of Doriath.

Teleporno, as I said, has a Greek form, and could be taken to be formed from telē-: 'far off, at a distance', and pornē: 'a prostitute' (this is the first element in pornography: lit. 'writing about prostitutes'). Analysing this meaning demonstrates quite neatly why this must have been a coincidence, although Tolkien surely knew enough Greek to realise how the name could be interpreted. It is, of course, the Telerin form of Celeborn, the name of Galadriel's consort. I don't think I need fill in the somewhat coarse direction my thoughts took after those realisations.

[Lalwendë]

That's the very thing I'm after Squatter! Some great speculations and explorations of the words Tolkien created, in the spirit of the way he created and explored language!

The old sense of the word thing conjours up an air of the North, of older times, and in using it for the character of Thingol I get that feeling about him, as of an ancient king, authoritarian and distant. And as one of the senses of the word thing must include Authority, it's a fitting name to choose for the character.

It's interesting that a thing was very much a gathering as well as a parliament, suggesting a bringing together of people, and that was very much the purpose of Doriath, a place where many Elves were gathered together - including Dark Elves. It's also interesting that Thingol ruled over an older established community of Elves in Beleriand, one which was there before the Noldor came back in their blaze of glory; thing is the old word for parliament, the new one, brought with the arrival of Latin and French was indeed parliament! What I am getting at there is that in our own languages thing automatically suggests something older - making a poetic link to the older community of Elves ruled over by Thingol.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It might also be noted that a Thing was a more inclusive social event, whereas a parliament is a closed forum. I don't believe that Things were held by the Anglo-Saxons, whose main assembly was the Witan or witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'. This was effectively the sort of group which met under the Parliament Oak: a council of magnates and churchmen. Parliament, on the other hand derives from Old French parlement: 'speaking'. Speculating wildly, Tolkien might have found it significant that after the Norman conquest, a gathering of the Wise was replaced with a talking shop.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Squatter

I don't believe that Things were held by the Anglo-Saxons, whose main assembly was the Witan or witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'. This was effectively the sort of group which met under the Parliament Oak:

That brings up another new avenue to pursue.

witena gemot - assembly of the wise.

Which word in Tolkien's work does this suggest? To me, it's Ent Moot. I'm sure Squatter will know if gemot is the root of the word moot, I have the feeling that it is.

thing = Norse
moot = Anglo-Saxon

These are essentially similar in that they are both assemblies, the former being more of a gathering including all, the latter only for 'the wise'. That actually tallies nicely with thing corresponding to an older age (with Thingol's realm and the community he builds up) and moot to the Third Age. Of course, the Ents live close by the Rohirrim, a culture reminiscent of early Anglo-Saxon culture.

What about the word Ent meaning 'giant' in Old English?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Well, a quick glance at the OED confirms that OE mōt is the source of the modern English noun 'moot', and by association the adjectival form (e.g. 'moot point'). Gemot is just that word with the prefix ge-, which indicates that this is the verb form and that it implies 'met', i.e. 'The wise met [in conclave]'.

I think that entmoot was suggested as soon as Tolkien decided to name his new race after the giants of Old English literature. Since ent and mōt are both Old English, it seems logical to make them into the sort of compound that occurs in Old English. The spelling is modernised to 'moot' simply because he was aiming at a general audience. This term also avoids further recourse to 'council' (OF cuncile from lat. concilium: 'assembly', although this is a pre-Conquest loan-word). Before we read too much into any of this, though, there's no evidence that Thingol's name really has anything to do with gatherings or assemblies, and the terms Tolkien decides to use in the Third Age are entirely logical given the context.

Everywhere I look, ent is translated 'giant', but there seems to have been something special about Ents. Beowulf kills Grendels mother with a sword that is the work of ents; the city in The Ruin is their handiwork too, as are the Roman towns referred to in Maxims II. Aside from that, though, Goliath is se ent goliað, and the word is used to gloss Latin gigas: 'a giant'.

[the guy who be short]

Ah, so you got round to creating this thread, Lal.

As has already been said, I think we should take any similarity with existing English (or Welsh, Finnish or Latin) words with a pinch of salt. The purpose of Tolkien's invented language was to be beautiful, not to reflect English. Thingol is probably no more than the sum of his Sindarin parts.

Entmoot, meanwhile, is presented as the English equivalent of a Westron word. It makes sense that it should reflect English, or Old English, or any Inbetween English. I found the exploration of its root very interesting. So, thanks to Lal for creating the thread, and Squatter for knowing Old English!

EDIT: This thread is worth a look for name jokes.

[Thinlómien]

This is a very interesting topic. And, of course, I'd like to introduce the Finnish point of view.

While exploring the Sindarin and Quenya vocabulary you find delightingly many words that have to do with Finnish. Sindarin gannel for 'harp' is very similar to kannel (the Finnish national instrument which is related to the harp). Also tië for 'path' is almost the same as Finnish tie 'road'. I've also wondered if the stem lin- 'sing' has to do with the Finnish word lintu 'bird', but that might be a bit far-fetched.

It is also very interesting that in Quenya -atar is a masculine ending since it means 'father', but in Finnish the ending -tar (or -tär) is feminine, eg. kuningas (king) -> kuningatar (queen), tarjoilija (waiter) -> tarjoilijatar (waitress) and so on... No wonder I thought Ilúvatar to be female while first seeing his name...

[Aganzir]

There are some words and phrases I've always associated with Finnish.

The word ainu resembles a lot the Finnish word ainoa and the slang form ainut, which mean 'only, single, sole'. Since the Ainur once (except for Ilúvatar) were the only ones existing and inhabiting Arda, I find it no weird at all that they might be respectfully named The Only Ones. Of course, this may be a little bit far-fetched, and I don't think Tolkien really intended to name the Valar after such a word, but it's too easy to interpret it like that.

I also had fun when reading the first part of the Books of Lost Tales. There was a picture of the world, in the shape of a ship. It was called I Vene Kemen, 'The Shape of the Earth' or 'The Vessel of the Earth'. As kemen is the word for earth, vene should be the word for vessel. However, vene happens to be the Finnish word for boat. The same word is repeated in the name Kalavénë, the Ship of Light. Kala means a fish. As a Finn I had problems not to laugh at the magnificent name of the Sunship. I believe it might not be an accident that vene seems to mean a ship or a vessel, but kala has nothing to do with light.

Koivië-néni, the earlier form of Cuiviénen, reminds me of the Finnish words koivu (birch) and niemi (cape). It's not hard to connect koivië to koivu, but I'm not sure if I associate néni with niemi just because of a Finnish nursery tale: little children are scared by telling stories of evil Koivuniemen herra, Lord of Koivuniemi, who will come and give them a beating if they don't behave themselves.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Has anyone not pointed out that Thingol is simply the regular Sindarin formation of Quenya Sindicollo? It's analysed Thin-gol, not Thing-ol.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I pointed out above that it's Sindarin, formulated in that language on the basis of phonological and grammatical rules that were independent of the story of Thingol, and I also quoted Tolkien on the subject of reading meanings into his names. I didn't point out the meaning because I thought that would be enough. It was offered as a brief caveat lector before starting the more amusing business of dreaming up possible meanings.

All just a bit of fun really.

[the guy who be short]

Are we done with Mr Thingol? Shall we move onto something else? I will repeat that I think it will be a lot more fruitful looking in Rohirric and Westron than the Elvish languages, as any Elvish-English connection is probably going to be coincidental (except perhaps Eldar-Elder).

I'm rereading UT, which has a lot on how Rohiriric words are related to Anglo-Saxon.

Also, has anybody read 'The Ring of Words: Tolkien and the Oxford English Dictionary' - apparently a good source for the linguistically-minded.

[littlemanpoet]

'Assembly of the Wise' made me think of The White Council from LotR. I wonder if it had a connection to Anglo-Saxon witan gemot? Did the Council of Elrond?

[Lalwendë]

I was reading about the awesome Germanic custom of the Symbel today - how cool does this sound eh?

Of course and then we have Simbelmyne - Evermind. At the ritual drinking fest one of the features would be the scop or bard who would recite the genealogies - and niftily, the Rohirrim also have just that kind of thing at Theoden's funeral! Which brings it full circle - Simbelmyne at Theoden's funeral, overseen by a bard who recites the histories, just as did the scop, at the Symbel.

***

I've also found something interesting abut Germanic correspondences in the names of months - Blotmonath for example - and am fascinated that the word Bless directly derives from Blot - the pagan sacrificial practice

That's also got me on to the Tomte or Nisse, a Swedish Wight a bit like a Boggart, who makes me think of old Tom Bombadillo...and that Galdor is a kind of Scandinavian Shamanic magic...

It's a dangerous do, looking at words...

[Gwen_Holbytla]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

The purpose of Tolkien's invented language was to be beautiful, not to reflect English.

I would attempt to gently disagree. I think along with Tolkien's goal to create the missing English myth by assembling the unknown hints of sufficiently old works, he wanted to draw deliberate connections between our language and the language in his canon. I believe he knowingly uses Old English to reflect on both his source material and the general historic groundwork he was attempting to lay. (Both senses of lay down a piece and 'to write a lay' - tehe, puns.)

The *holbytla is probably the most well known example, his coining of the word from hol, hole, and bytlian, to dwell in, and the implication that it later degenerated into hobbit.

You can also see this in Gandalf's name. Gandálfr is a name from the Völuspá, which Tolkien stole (along with the majority of the dwarf names from TH). In all his linguistical wisdom, he decided it to mean stalf-elf, as a kenning for wizard. So we see here a deliberate attempt to draw back on older words (of various languages, but including O.E.) and give (or discover) their appropriate meaning in a manner that the modern reader can decipher.

This recreation and connection in language is a reflection (or perhaps the other is a reflection upon his linguistic choice) of his attempt to recreate the English myth - in a manner similar to the Kalevala, actually.

But of course I'm not a linguist like you are, so please feel quite free to utterly destroy any points above.




*first post dance - hello, all! Greetings!*

[Lalwendë]

I found a very interesting website today which has a lot about folklore of the Orkneys and some intriguing little leads to words in Tolkein's work.

Firstly, Hobbits - in Orkney they have the Hogboon or Hogboy, who dwells in burial mounds but can be a friendly spirit - like a Hobbit in his own underground Smial you might presume. What was even more arresting to me though is that on the page where this is described, look to the info bar on the right hand side as some Orcadian place names associated with mounds are listed - one of them is Hobbister.

Then we also have the Trow and the Draugr - Trow immediately brings to mind a Troll of course, but in Orkney this is closer to the Norse Draugr, a kind of unpleasant, undead Wight which inhabits burial mounds and steals the spirits of children. It's also uncanny that Alan Lee chose Maes Howe as his model when making a sketch of the Barrow-Downs!

And finally to the most intriguing find of all, an almost forgotten Orcadian mythical being - the Kett-Hontla which is a strange combination of cat and dog and linked to the Scandinavian Ketta, a Cat Ogre who is mother to the undead Draugr, and found in Beowulf as the enigmatic Grendel's mother. There she is also referred to as the merewif or woman of the mere, and this has now got me thinking about Goldberry and her mother, the River-Woman...

[LadyBrooke]

This is perhaps the perfect subject for language/name obsessed me. (Note that not all of this is serious)

Celeborn/Teleporno
It means, depending on what time frame in Tolkien’s writings we are looking at, “silver, tall” or “silver tree”. In a paper I once wrote for English class, the internal explanation I gave for this discrepancy was that while language is an ever evolving thing, names aren’t. Therefore an elf who’s name originally meant silver tree might find himself with a name meaning silver tall.

The thing I am more curious about is the fact that this name clearly invokes Teleperion, one of the two trees. However, this name would be largely incompatible with Tolkien’s history of Celeborn as set in LotR where Celeborn is clearly not from Valinor, if we assume that it is his original name. Therefore Celeborn must be an epesse, given to him by somebody who had seen the two trees - either Melian, Elwe, or one of the returning Noldor.

However if this is the case, what was his original father-name or mother name?

Luckily for us, Tolkien gives us in HOME two possible alternatives (note at no time were all three of these names in use at the same time) Galdaran and Arafain.

Galadaran of course reminds of Galadriel, but also of Galadhon (Celeborn’s father) and Galathil (his brother). Because of which I humbly submit the possibility that the root of the Galad part of Galadaran comes from Galadh (tree) and not Galad (light). Aran means king. On is not a word, and could be a form of either onneth (giver) or onna (born). It could also be related to onod (ent). Thil could be related to thilia (to glisten).

Therefore here are the possible meanings of Galadaran, Galadhon, and Galathil:
Galadaran - Tree King - Shouldn’t Thranduil be jealous?
Galadaran - Light King -it’s the shiny silver hair, it lights up the room. You’re the dancing king, only seventeen....(Mamma Mia!)

Galadhon - Tree Giver - conspiracy theory 100909098676 Celeborn’s father is really Yavanna’s secret lover and therefore the one responsible for all the trees in M-E
Galadhon - Tree Born - because he’s one of the Sindar, I suppose.
Galadhon - also simply the plural of galadh so trees. Historically this would fit, if the elves started with names that were just one word with no conjugating.
Galadhon - Tree, Ent - possibly related to why Treebeard appears to be such good friends with Celeborn and Galadriel. If Celeborn’s father was one of the ones to awaken the ents.

Galathil - Tree, to glisten - so glistening trees - not sure about what this could possibly mean. Unless it is related to the fact that his daughter married the King of Doriath (Dior) and became shiny with the Silmarils.

Arafain reminds me of Galadriel’s father, Arafinwe, however Arafinwe is Quenyan and not Sindarin. However in Sindarin, ara is a form of aran which as mentioned above means king. Ara is used to mean high, noble, and royal. Fain means white or cloud. This could possibly be referring to his hair, as I have heard white and silver used interchangeably. Or he could be a Royal Cloud.

That was FUN! I will most likely be back later with more musing on this oft neglected group of Sindar royalty - the family of Elmo, youngest brother of Elwe. (And no accents won’t show up on my computer.) So next will be Nimloth, Elmo, possibly after that throw in Oropher and Thranduil (who seem to be relatives of some degree.)

[Pitchwife]

LadyBrooke, thanks for reviving this thread! I can't believe I've overlooked this before - and now I hardly know where to begin...

First, I vaguely recall a passage in Letters where Tolkien explained that the name Sauron had nothing to with large prehistoric reptiles and that his imagination didn't work that way. On the other hand, his early Qenya vocabulary contained several obvious borrowings from Finnish (as Thinlómien and Aganzir have shown), and even some blatant puns (such as the root *saha- 'be hot', from which is derived Sahóra 'the South'; BoLT I p. 248). Later, as he refined his languages more and more, he seems to have expunged most of the punning elements - but that need not keep us from speculating about strange, funny or even illuminating coincidences.

witena gemot: 'assembly of the wise'

which is where Joanne Rowling's Wizengamot comes from - and that was a court of law, too, like the Icelandish þing.

atar'father' seems to be borrowed from Irish athar of the same meaning.

As for Galadhon, I think the -on element is probably just a male suffix, so the name would translate roughly as 'Tree Guy'.

If Elmo comes up next, there's St Elmo's fire (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire). As this tends to be rather on the bluish than the reddish part of the spectrum, it would fit the el- element (meaning 'star'; -thil in Galathil also means light of a white or silver, rather than golden, colour).

To conclude with some rather humorous musings:

The word ainu resembles a lot the Finnish word ainoa and the slang form ainut, which mean 'only, single, sole'. Since the Ainur once (except for Ilúvatar) were the only ones existing and inhabiting Arda, I find it no weird at all that they might be respectfully named The Only Ones [my emphasis, P.].

Does anybody remember the new wave band of that name from the late 70s/early 80s (e.g. Another Girl Another Planet)? Now at last I know what the Music of the Ainur sounded like!

In the German version of LotR, Rivendell is translated as 'Bruchtal' (~'broken dale'); and there is a town named Bruchsal in my part of the country. Whenever I pass it on the motorway (which is about every second weekend), I find myself thinking 'next exit to Rivendell'...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Celeborn/Teleporno
It means, depending on what time frame in Tolkien’s writings we are looking at, “silver, tall” or “silver tree”. In a paper I once wrote for English class, the internal explanation I gave for this discrepancy was that while language is an ever evolving thing, names aren’t. Therefore an elf who’s name originally meant silver tree might find himself with a name meaning silver tall.

The thing I am more curious about is the fact that this name clearly invokes Teleperion, one of the two trees. However, this name would be largely incompatible with Tolkien’s history of Celeborn as set in LotR where Celeborn is clearly not from Valinor, if we assume that it is his original name. Therefore Celeborn must be an epesse, given to him by somebody who had seen the two trees - either Melian, Elwe, or one of the returning Noldor.

There are two divergent stories Tolkien wrote regarding Celeborn. One regarded, of course, his Sindarin roots and relation to Thingol, but the second one was that his name was Teleporno, a Telerin Elf of Valinor who meets Galadriel in the Telerin city of Alqualonde, and then the two decide to set off for Middle-earth. Although not part of the Kin-slaying, they are caught up in the Ban because they have not sought permission to leave Valinor. The Thingol relation story became part of the Silmarillion because Christopher Tolkien decided against a major rewrite regarding Galadriel's past, but it seems the Telerin version Teleporno was actually JRR Tolkien's last word on the character.

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for Galadhon, I think the -on element is probably just a male suffix, so the name would translate roughly as 'Tree Guy'.

If Elmo comes up next, there's St Elmo's fire (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire). As this tends to be rather on the bluish than the reddish part of the spectrum, it would fit the el- element (meaning 'star'; -thil in Galathil also means light of a white or silver, rather than golden, colour).

That’s probably true, but given that everybody seems to have their pet conspiracy theory about something from Tolkien’s books, I figure that I deserve one too. And if the worst I can come up is that the descendants of Elwe’s youngest brother Elmo tend to be Elvish Casanovas, well.... I’m not harming anybody (Unless this is really all true, and Galadriel comes after me with a sword or something...)

I’m afraid Elmo’s going to have to wait while I do more research into St. Elmo’s fire which I had never heard of before. I will discuss Nimloth though.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There are two divergent stories Tolkien wrote regarding Celeborn. One regarded, of course, his Sindarin roots and relation to Thingol, but the second one was that his name was Teleporno, a Telerin Elf of Valinor who meets Galadriel in the Telerin city of Alqualonde, and then the two decide to set off for Middle-earth. Although not part of the Kin-slaying, they are caught up in the Ban because they have not sought permission to leave Valinor. The Thingol relation story became part of the Silmarillion because Christopher Tolkien decided against a major rewrite regarding Galadriel's past, but it seems the Telerin version Teleporno was actually JRR Tolkien's last word on the character.

Thank you for bringing this up. I never intended to give off the impression that this is the only story Tolkien laid out for Celeborn. I simply can’t accept it, for myself, not because I believe the Silmarilion is always right, but because I can’t make it fit with LotR without doing somersaults and a jig with my logic. Every indication we are given in LotR as to Celeborn’s heritage makes him out to be a Silvan or Sindar and plus if he was born in Valinor than he would by the genealogies given there be Galadriel’s first cousin. And that’s just icky to the elves. As stated in one of the HOME books I don’t have, and therefore am just going off my notes about the HOME books for. Of course, if Tolkien had lived he might very well have rewritten LotR to fit with this new backstory for Galadriel, though I don’t think it’s half as interesting as the one we have.

Plus if we keep moving Elwe’s relatives to Valinor, pretty soon it’s just going to be him in the woods all by himself.

And we might have had Teleporno as his name in the books and my mommy wouldn’t have let me read them.

Now for Nimloth! Fascinating woman, married to Dior ‘the most beautiful of all Eru’s children’ gave birth to Eludred, Elurin, and Elwing, and Celeborn’s niece if we accept that Galathil is his brother.

Nim comes from nimp meaning either pale, white or small and frail. Loth means flower, inflorescence, and a head of small flowers. Inflorescence means the complete flower head of a plant, including stems, stalks, bracts, and flowers or the process of flowering. It’s most recognizable use is of course Lothlorien the realm of Celeborn and Galadriel.

Therefor here are the possible meanings of Nimloth:

Pale flower
White flower
Small and frail flower
Pale flowering
Small and frail flowering

From this the image I get of Nimloth is a small, frail, pale woman with silver hair. However it is debatable to me whether her frailty would have been internal or external. I have to say that being married to Dior it seems like she must have had some internal strength or he wouldn’t have noticed her. Why would she have been small though, considering that so many of her relatives are well relatively tall? If, and this is completely baseless speculation on my part, she had been born while everybody is searching the woods for Elwe then it may have been that they experienced severe hardships finding food and such, or if she was born after the Girdle fell, than it may be the same.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

There are two divergent stories Tolkien wrote regarding Celeborn.

More than two, regarding Celeborn's clan anyway; but Tolkien decided to publish that Celeborn was Sindarin in any case: once in The Return of the King, and again (in the next decade) in The Road Goes Ever On.

One regarded, of course, his Sindarin roots and relation to Thingol, but the second one was that his name was Teleporno, a Telerin Elf of Valinor who meets Galadriel in the Telerin city of Alqualonde, and then the two decide to set off for Middle-earth. Although not part of the Kin-slaying, they are caught up in the Ban because they have not sought permission to leave Valinor.

They had no part in the Rebellion in this late adumbrated version (Tolkien arguably forgot he had already published that Galadriel was a rebel Noldo, and so much so that she was banned at the end of the First Age), however Galadriel was given a 'part' in the Kinslaying in some measure, despite that the fight is against Feanor. Galadriel seemingly had no part in the 1950s when she was first introduced into the texts concerning the Elder Days.

Nimloth 'White Blossom' (S. index).

[LadyBrooke]

Thanks, Galin, for the clarification of what Nimloth’s name means. Hmmm...I think my ponderings on why she would be named this can still stand, for when I think of a white blossom I do imagine a rather frail looking flower, that would still manage to survive by itself, as I have raised several types of flowers like that.

Originally Posted by Galin

More than two, regarding Celeborn's clan anyway; but Tolkien decided to publish that Celeborn was Sindarin in any case: once in The Return of the King, and again (in the next decade) in The Road Goes Ever On.

I must admit, one of the other reasons I prefer Celeborn to be a Sindar, and not one of the Teleri of Aman is that there is the added tragic element. If he is one of the Teleri, they meet before the kinslaying and are friends. However if he is one of the Sindar, they meet while she is a exile. Also, the Noldor seem to look down on the Sindar, as Morquendi, ignoring the fact that as kinslayers they are probably darker than the Avari, who have never slain their own kin.

I am still doing research for Elmo. Did you guys know there was a Catholic saint who was known as Elmo?

[Galin]

By the way, my apologies to Morthoron. While I stand by my earlier niggles, in reading the thread more closely it seems Morthoron's response was specifically to explain that the name Teleporno went with the concept of Celeborn being from Aman, as the context was in response to:

The thing I am more curious about is the fact that this name clearly invokes Teleperion, one of the two trees. However, this name would be largely incompatible with Tolkien’s history of Celeborn as set in LotR where Celeborn is clearly not from Valinor, if we assume that it is his original name. Therefore Celeborn must be an epesse, given to him by somebody who had seen the two trees - either Melian, Elwe, or one of the returning Noldor.

In other words, if one is going to take Teleporno and construct a theory on it that includes the history of the character, then the corresponding character is that of a Teler from Aman. One goes with the other.

That said, Tolkien imagined a character who had various names to begin with (Tar, Aran, Galdaran, Galathir, Arafain). He settled on Celeborn of course, and JRRT also seems to have had various ideas concerning him, inculding a possible Noldorin history (for this idea see Galadriel note 12, The Treason of Isengard). Celeborn 'Silver tree' keeps his name through subsequent conceptions. This form itself is the same as the name of the Tree of Tol Eressea, and in Appendix E to The History of Galadriel and Celeborn CJRT notes that the meaning was later abandoned for 'Silver tall'. This change is external, though no doubt the form could still be 'wrongly' interpreted 'Silver Tree' by characters within the mythology. Tolkien's note in UT (Appenix E again, as above) appears to want to incorporate this nice confusion, in that both rulers of Lórien appeared to have names that contained a tree word, according to some at least (see the full note).

Basically I think that Teleporno arose from the new history: if Celeborn was to become Telerin he would have a name in Telerin form. Whatever else Tolkien thought about this new name I don't know. Anyway it was a relatively late change and I'm not sure JRRT had remembered what he had already published about Celeborn. This whole concept might go the path of Beorian ros, a rejected later idea, and rejected after JRRT realized he had already published something.