Of Beorn

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Let me be the first to say that getting rid of junk topics. I may have attributed to some terrible or irreverent topics but at least I attempted at some intelligent debate. Anyway, onward...

Of Beorn...

"...His name is Beorn. He is very strong, and he is a skin-changer."

Of course we all know Beorn transforms into a great black bear. (Not a Black Bear, merely a huge, black colored bear).

"He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard."

The great, dark beard is not entirely disimilar to those that the Istari wear. His physical prowess, see below.

"Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug"

Or maybe both?

"At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own."

Gandalf then further mentions that Beorn can talk to animals and ventures far and wide (as a bear) to search for news.

Beorn as a bear once said, "The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!" Gandalf (who of course speaks bear) heard this, and definitely believes that he is from the Misty Mountains.

When Beorn grew mildly suspicious Gandalf mentioned that he was "cousin" to Radagast the Brown. That at least kept Beorn from too much suspicion. (He made mention of Radagast's home in Southern Mirkwood. Beorn then said he knew Radagast, "not a bad fellow as wizards go."..."I used to see him now and again." Gandalf also answered Bilbo's inquiry, and stated that Beorn was "a man, no doubt a bit of a sorcerer, but a man."

Tolkien included Beorn as his tribute to the legendary Beowulf (Bee-Wolf (Bear)). Obviously he had to be a great warrior, entirely capable of tearing the arm right off a man or goblin (or grendel anyhow). He merely incorporated his bear form to go with the name. Beorn was great, one of the greatest and most unique men in history.

BUT WAIT! Didn't the all the descendents of the Maia have strange and wonderful power? You see, I believe Beorn is the son of a Maia and a human. More specifically Radagast and a human woman. Looking at it this way opens up room for comments, for sure. Luthien was daughter of a Maia (and a substantially powerful elf, which attributes her other gifts). She transformed into a vampire bat, transformed Beren into Draugluin. Elwing transformed into a beautiful swan to fly to Earendil. She was descendent of Luthien. And these were two of the greatest elves. Both direct descendants of Maiar. Beorn alluded that he once saw Radagast from time to time. He wasn't very open to the strangers, he may have actually seen Radagast frequently. If Radagast was his father, all the more likely. Indeed Beorn's tendencies to talk to animals and wander afar looking for news from beyond his oak forest and bee fields were not disimilar at all. Beorn was a bit of a sorceror. Not too many elves, men or dwarves could shapeshift and not be descendended of Maia. Felagund chanted to make Beren and his own elves look like orcs. Others had great powers, like Feanor or Galadriel. Humans never changed shape like that. Only the children of Maia ancestry. Sort of inbred enchantment, (an enchantment of his own). Elwing could skin-change, and she was descended from Melian the Maia, then Luthien. Tolkien wrote that all the descendents of Beorn, the Beornings could take the shape of the bear. (Although never as great as Beorn himself).

On the subject of the mountains, no doubt he was from higher in them. In the friendlier times Radagast may have gone there as well.

Radagast was the brown, brown bearded no doubt. Beorn had a black beard, but tanned, brownish skin.

As far as a descendent of the men before Smaug or a bear before the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, if Radagast was involved he could have been in man or bear form. That really can't be answered. As a matter of fact, this is all really educated speculation. But sound speculation.

[burrahobbit]

Finrod turned into stuff. Finrod was not and any way descended from any Maia.

cf "arts of Felegund"

Wizards could not change shape as wizards, they were made incarnate in human form until their task was completed.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

As the Istari, but it is well known that Gandalf as Olorin traveled around as an elf, and so on. Only during their battle against Sauron were they limited to their human shapes.

I mentioned Felagund. He disguised them yes, but didn't change shape into an animal.

[Mhoram]

Well the obvious questions that come to mind are, if Beorn was the son of Radagast, wouldn't he know it, he doesn't seem to. And futhermore, doesn't everything we know about the Istari suggest that they wouldn't have children as wizards?

[Guildo]

i sort of get the insinuation in the Silmarilion that one of the original gifts of man was to change shape can find the exact excerpt right now, but perhaps it is one gift that has remained only in the Pure line of man which Beorn and the Beornings are.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Well, that opens up the question of what Beorn meant by

The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!

This suggests that he is a being like Bombadil, who was displaced by the orcs or something, or at least has been around for a long time. But this makes little sense, because The Lord of the Rings mentions the land of the Beornings being ruled/led my his son. (Many Meetings or The Council of Elrond).

We have opened a big can of worms...let's start catching the fish, shall we? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Interesting subject. It is true that Maiar and Children of Illuvitar can produce offspring, as in the case of Melian and Thingol. Therefore Radagast could theoretically have fathered Beorn. He was certainly in human form.

If I may make a few observations...

'Yes, I know Radagast. Not a bad fellow as wizards go.'

Unless Beorn didn't actually know that Radagast was his father, I don't think he'd speak of him in quite this way unless he said it in this way simply to cover up the fact. Which, of course, he could, I suppose, but certainly one would have thought that he would speakof his father somewhat differently to that.

'One day they shall perish and I shall go back!'

And they did perish, didn't they? After the BOFA, it was said that most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or slain, and those that stayed cowered in dark holes and didn't come out -- not yet at any rate, their numbers were two few. It is interesting to note that shortly after this, Beorn disappeared and his descendants took over the governing of his land. We have presumed that he died; actually, I think it very possible that he did 'go back'.

i sort of get the insinuation in the Silmarilion that one of the original gifts of man was to change shape can find the exact excerpt right now, but perhaps it is one gift that has remained only in the Pure line of man which Beorn and the Beornings are.

Well I've never come across this before. It sounds very, very unlikely and somewhat out of synch, too... I will be surprised if anyone can back that up with any sort of evidence. Of course though, if you can please do.
What do you mean by 'pure'? Most Men were in fact pure men, with the one exception of the Dunedain. The Rohirrim were just Men, the Breelanders were, the Haradrim and the Rhun were. Yet none of them could change shape. Beorn was unique in this respect, to be sure.

As the Istari, but it is well known that Gandalf as Olorin traveled around as an elf, and so on. Only during their battle against Sauron were they limited to their human shapes.

So on...? No, the Istari were stuck as men. Olorin, with his great love and understanding of the Elves, could perhaps summon some vague power so that he would appear as one, but apart from that kind of illusion-ish type magic no, I don't think so. The same illusionish trick was used by Felagund and a couple of others, but Beorn, when he chose, was obviously a real, physical great bear.

[Guildo]

well when i said "Pure" i was kinda thinking outloud i guess. i think there are not as many Pure men as there are Pure elves, just as im caucasion but not of only English anscestry, but i could be wrong. i do kinda like the idea of him being Radaghast's son or maybe even Tom's son, or maybe even Tom and Beorn both could be sons of Orome. some of these ideas might be far fetched though. as far as man being able to change for ill see if i can find that in the Silmarilion (i think it was something like changing into the form of a wold hiding behind the throne of Melkor)

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Tom isn't the son of Orome. None of the Ainur could have had offspring while not in Ea; they were beings more of energy, and not tramelled to the 'tracts of mortals'. They weren't breeders. And since Tom was the first, he could not have been born in Arda.

But that's off topic. We should really try to keep as many threads Tom-free as possible, you know...

[Túroch]

Well it certinly an interesting theory about Radagast but it doesn't sound quite right.

Perhaps by looking at Beorn's location we can determine something of his ancestory. It is intersting to note that the old forest road that runs though Mirkood (then called Greenwood the Great) was the very road that the Orome led the Eleves down on their way to the sea. Very near to were the carrack exists the second sundering of Elves occured. The Nandor "Those whot turn back" never crossed the Misty Mountains while the future Noldor and Sindar travelled on. Many of the Nandor lived along the Anduin very near to Beron's house. Later this group of elves moved down the Anduin but, maybe a few stayed. This is very interesting coincidence.

Maybe Beorn is the same mix as Dior had, 1/2 man, 1/4maiar, 1/4 elf. Maybe.

Another possiblity is his line is decended from one of the Maiar traveling with Orome and one of the Nandor.

Well I don't think i'll ever know. It's nice to hear someone talk about Radagast. He is one of my favorite characters. Don't ask me why. It's the Bobba Fett syndrome, I didn't see much of him so he captured my imagination.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Another observation:

'Radagast the Brown; a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and hues...'

Shapes...? Human shape to bear shape, perhaps?

Then again, Orome was the patron Vala of animals.

Gandalf.

'A man; no doubt a bit of a sorceror, but a man.'

Of course, he could have been just mostly human, with a small inkling of Maia in him. But I feel that a small inkling would not be enough to give him, and all his descendants, the power to change shape at will.

A sorceror... well, perhaps he was. Sorceror-type people existed in the Third Age, although admittedly they were mainly not Men. Mannish magic did exist though, as in Orthanc, the Black Pillar of the Paths of the Dead and Isildur's commandement to the dead, the sword Narsil etc. So Beorn could have been, just a sorceror. Not the higher, refined, civilised magic of Numenor, but a more rustic kind perhaps?

It is also vaguely possible that he was an enchanted Man, although the quote 'he is under no enchantment but his own' seems to contradict that, and lend more perhaps to the above idea or the Maia argument. Then again, it may just mean that he stood alone and held to his own judegement and will.

*shrugs* I agree though, the idea of Radagast being BEorn's father isn't easy to swallow.

[Legolas]

Gandalf referred to Beorn as a man, and thus, he was one, unlike Bombadil's case - Gandalf never called him a man. Beorn also had died by the War of the Ring.

Also, this might be of marginal interest. Aragorn, speaking to Legolas and Gimli about the Rohirrim:

It was in forgotten years long ago that Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan.

But actually, the biggest hint comes from Tolkien's one-hundred-and-forty-fourth letter.

Beorn is dead; see vol. I p. 241. He appeared in The Hobbit. It was then the year Third Age 2940 (Shire-reckoning 1340). We are now in the years 3018-19 (1418-19). Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.

Emphasis on...

Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man.

Tolkien wouldn't lie to us.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Arwen Imladris]

This topic has already been discused to some degree on this thread: Who do you say Beorn is?

Check it out. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Galorme]

He is not half Maia. There was only one union of Maia and Child of Eru i believe. Lúthion is unique.

Beauty beyond the mists of time
Half Elven and still Half Devine
Sings the gentle chime of bells
Of Lúthien Tuniviel

Though ages pass, and strength fails
Though elves fade into long lost tails
Though shadows grow long
With the dimming of song
Still the tale of Luthien lives on

And though death will befall her
She forever will be
Light as a leaf on Lindon Tree

Hmm ok the rhythom is a bit wrong. Sorry Light as a Leaf on Lindon Tree, i love that line i dont know why. Erm sorry i have deviated quite badly from the point of the forum. What was i saying? Oh yeah Beorn was just a man, why cant men change shape? Dont be so closed minded.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Well, Beorn was a man. Of course, but Luthien was an elf and she was daughter of a Maia. As a matter of fact, Melian was in elven form as queen of Doriath. Very powerful and beautiful and bright but in elven form no less. The Akhallabeth (did I spell it right?) said that when the Valar, the Ainur appeared they appeared in the form of the children of Illuvatar only greater, and more beautiful. Of course, Melko was some thirty feet tall and horrible to behold and Ulmo appeared big as a wave with shells and pearls adorning him, but of course the Maiar would be lesser in stature to these two greats. And of course, with Olorin traveling with the elves there is always the possibility of him having been in his true form or something along those lines (not Gandalf the old man form). Back then things weren't as hidden.

As for Radagast being master of many shapes and hues, the whole shape thing really points at something. Maybe he blessed the line of Beorn's forefathers. But no person can call the location of Beorn, Radagast and all there friends coincedence. Radagast definitely had some hand in the ancestral lines of Beorn, whether directly or indirectly. And Gwaihir was right around that area as well. . . As for Beorn's unbecoming speech of his "maybe" father ("not a bad fellow"), he was a bit standoffish towards Gandalf anyway, but it would make more sense if Radagast had blessed his lines, be them bear or man. Remember how Gandalf blessed old Barly's brew. Well it was the best year ever as far as the Pony's stock went.

Man-magic? I think the Numenoreans were a little above men. Even the nearby woodmen and the Rohirrim (the closest relatives to the Beornings) had no power like transfiguration. Dalelanders, Bardings, Esgarothians? Nope. Actually, the Numenoreans didn't either. Their magic was more in the form of prophecy, omen and strong blood lines. Beorn just had straight up magic, like Gandalf (or Radagast).

I'm really moving from Radagast the father to Radagast got helped by some bear in the woods (or man in the woods) and blessed his line.

[Legolas]

But no person can call the location of Beorn, Radagast and all there friends coincedence.

It is certainly no coincidence. Tolkien put the two near each other for the sole purpose of giving Gandalf a way to relate to and make a friend out of Beorn.

Radagast definitely had some hand in the ancestral lines of Beorn, whether directly or indirectly.

How can you make a statement so bold?

Man-magic? I think the Numenoreans were a little above men. Even the nearby woodmen and the Rohirrim (the closest relatives to the Beornings) had no power like transfiguration. Dalelanders, Bardings, Esgarothians? Nope. Actually, the Numenoreans didn't either. Their magic was more in the form of prophecy, omen and strong blood lines. Beorn just had straight up magic, like Gandalf (or Radagast).

The Noldor alone made the Silmarils and the Three Elvish Rings of Power - did the Sindar? The Nandor? The Vanyar? No, they didn't. Then - did they ever try? Did they attempt to learn how? Beorn's shape-shifting was learned as any other sorcery or craftmanship, clearly a different sort of magic than that held by two beings that had the potency to exist outside of creation.

[Mhoram]

The amount of trouble people will go to to try to make something fit their ideas is amazing. Square peg, round hole, force it through.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Good point. Presumption is dangerous on the Barrow Downs Forums. Bold statements that can be argues are ten times deadlier. The coincedence that Tolkien put Radagast near Beorn for Gandalf's benefit; iffy. Remembering Tolkien first wrote the Silm during WWII, he probably had some idea at least which Maiar Gandalf and Radagast were. Of course, that doesn't really say anything. But that whole Radagast, master of shapes and hues thing is pretty good evidence. I'll be the first to admit I'm shooting into the breeze here. I just like debating good points, especially when it's one of those dead ends that Tolkien himself may have only thought about and hadn't ventured into. Maybe looking up the history of Beowulf will help. If those tales make mention of his father being a powerful wizard, consider me closer to the truth. Peace.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

If a theory doesn't fit, adapt the theory. That's ok. If it's totally out, drop it.

Beorn probably did have something to do with the Northmen. For one, he was in the right location; and secondly the name Beorn seems to get at this. Beowolf may be a good line of enquiry.

[Legolas]

It was evident that you put a great deal of thought into the theory.

On "the whole Radagast, master of shapes and hues thing," I would've liked to known more about Radagast and how these attributes came out in him.

This is a quote from Letter No. 163:

But I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the comer at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure. I had never heard of the House of Eorl nor of the Stewards of Gondor. Most disquieting of all, Saruman had never been revealed to me, and I was as mystified as Frodo at Gandalf's failure to appear on September 22.1 knew nothing of the Palantíri, though the moment the Orthanc-stone was cast from the window, I recognized it, and knew the meaning of the 'rhyme of lore' that had been running in my mind: seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.

Saruman comes up as Tolkien is mentioning a few things (off the top of his head) that we made up all-of-a-sudden without any planning. As Lord of the Rings was written, the world he had been creating in The Silmarillion was altered greatly. Saruman had never been thought of, nor the nature of the Istari, I'd imagine, since Saruman was the first to volunteer at Manwe's council.

[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[WarBringer]

i agree with the keeper-beorn might have been born from radagast and a human woman, but maybe radagast, being a wizard, altered him? made him stronger?

[Iargwath]

Beorn
It is known that Beorn was a Northman and a Beorning chieftain. He is also known as a Beserker warrior and he had the gift of the "skin changer": that is, transforming into the form of a bear.
Where Beorn learned the trick of form-shifting is not known. But i have a suggestion that may be more probable.
Beorn was in a distant relation of the Edain of the First Age, and the Quenta Silmarillion relates how some of that race were skin-changers. Greatest of them was Beren, who like Beorn, lived long alone in the forest and ate no flesh.
As with Beorn, the birds and beasts came to Beren and aided him in his war with the Orcs and Wolves. In the Quest of the Silmaril it is told how Beren learned from the Eldar the art of form-shifting: presenting himself first in the shape of an Orc, and then as a great Wolf. So perhaps it can be said that some of the magic was inherited by Beorn and his people? Or perhaps it was a result of living with bears so long that Beorn learnt this skill?
Whatever it is, it is said that the trick of skin-changing was passed on to the heirs of Beorn through many generations.
Pages you can look up
*Beornings-The Hobbit
pg(s) 7,18
-The Lord of the Rings
chap II
*Beren-Silmarillion Quenta
pg(s) 117,140,172,180-1,188-198,200-1
203-4,206-23,235-6,251,277,282-3
296
-Book of Lost Tales 2
chap I

Note: All information was gathered from pages above.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ]

[Belin]

In Tolkien's introduction to a translation of Beowulf (thank you, HerenIstarion), he writes

Both [beorn and freca] meant 'warrior', or in heroic poetry 'man'. Or rather both were used for 'warrior' by poets, while beorn was still a form of the word 'bear', and freca a name of the wolf, and they were still used in verse when the original senses were forgotten. To use beorn and freca became a sign that your language was 'poetical", and these words survived, when much else of the ancient diction had perished,

So it seems pretty clear to me that this character is a product of Tolkien amusing himself with the double meaning of the word, an effect which would be lost if Beorn were not a man. And a bear. Making him related to an Istar doesn't seem to play into this very well.

--Belin Ibaimendi

Edit: When I read this, I realized that it sounded as if I were saying that one of Beorn's parents was a bear and the other a man. This is quite silly and is not what I meant at all. Instead, I think that the distinction between man and bear is simply not being made. Beorn is a very bearish man and a very mannish bear.

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Not to put a damper on one of the replies, but Felagund changed Beren's shape into that of an orc, and Luthien made him look like the recently slain Draugluin. In both instances it was elvish chant.

Beorn didn't know any elves powerful enough to do that. By the time he came around (which could have, I suppose, been really far back) elves that powerful simply didn't exist (except Galadriel).

I had forgotten the real world meaning of Beorn, and the double play. Good ol' J. R. R. T., always the most clever. With wordplay like that what's-her-Harry-Potter-face ought to give up the whole series and her face fill with green envious smokes until she can't take it anymore. . .did I just go into a Potter-bashing kick? Oops!

But anyway, Radagast. Good fellow as far as wizards go. Master of shapes and hues. Talked and walked with the animals. So did Beorn. Connection? Likely. If not, he's still the toughest of them all. (Okay, discluding Aragorn, Faramir and those types).

Later fellows!

[Legolas]

I don't know if Faramir could've slashed through the Battle of Five Armies like Beorn did. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Iargwath]

I believe Beorn is the son of a Maia and a human. More specifically Radagast and a human woman.

Could be so. But it is said that Beorn is in distant relation to the Edain of the first age. Also your assumption may be correct Maia and human...But i think Luthien and Beren would be more probable. After all Beren did love animals and he also went under the spell of skin-changing as u mentioned Keeper of Dol Golder (sorry about that) you are correct...it was a spell.
But what was this spell? Did it remain within a man's body to be passed on to generations? Did the spell inflicted on Beren stay within him...myb leading to Beorn's skin-changing?
These are my assumptions which you probably dont care for...but will create a bit of a debate if possible...

[Tirinor]

In the UT the Druedain are credited with strange and magical powers. Based on appearance and demeanor, it would be safe to say that the Druedain are not descendents of Maia or Elves. The notes also imply the Dwarves ahve a degree of their own "magic."

Magic is not exclusive to the Maiar and Elves.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Magic to who though? To hobbits? Everything is magic to hobbits. The druedain were connected to the earth in a much closer way than the edain, and how the Paths of the Dead were carved is beyond me. (Did the Numenoreans carve it? I need to refresh my trilogy notes), anyway, the dwarf magic was in the runes they wrote, like the doors of Durin, which not only acted as passwords and were wrought of magical elvish ithildin, but kept the doors from ever wearing away. Or hid keyholes from sight and touch, and similar things to that. I don't think shape-shifting was a common magic.

Someone had a good thought about Beren and Luthien, but I'd have to disagree. I think the Silm specifically stated that Dior was their only son (although who 'really' knows about daughters.)

[Iargwath]

I think that was me...but the idea of Beren and Luthien is far from probable.

[doug*platypus]

Tom Bombadil is an anomaly. No, cancel that, Tom Bombadil was the name of Tolkien's daughter's doll, who found his way into the Lord of the Rings.

Beorn Beornbadil is, so far as what he is, is not an anomaly. But his history is certainly an anomaly. He was put in as a homage to the great hero Beowulf and to the crazed berserker warriors of the good old days. In The Hobbit his origin isn't explained, and I don't think that at any point Tolkien felt inclined or pressured to give him one. He is.