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02-02-2007, 05:04 PM | #1 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Breaking of the World
Hi all,
My question relates to this passage regarding Aragorn's death: Quote:
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02-02-2007, 05:11 PM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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I actually think the meaning of this part is "he looked like the Kings of Men looked before the breaking of the world", so it actually is referring to Númenor. However, I think there still might be more to say about it, but I don't feel competent enough to speculate wider about any other breakings. So I'll wait if anyone else contributes to this thread. I just wanted to add my little bit of knowledge when I could.
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02-02-2007, 10:20 PM | #3 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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Well, it's obvious that the events that occurred in The Lord of the Rings are antediluvian, so the second breaking of the world obviously refers to the Biblical Flood.
......just kidding..... Last edited by littlemanpoet; 02-04-2007 at 08:35 PM. |
02-03-2007, 12:21 AM | #4 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 17
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Thanks Legate,
After reading it again, I think you're right. For some reason it sounded like he lay there for an age or so and then at last the world was broken again. But I think your interpretation makes much more sense. Thanks! |
02-03-2007, 02:57 AM | #5 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Well, in the Silmarillion, there are lots of graves that "remained/not remained there until the world was changed" (but this was even before the Breaking of Beleriand), so I think if you have read this, no wonder that the part about Aragorn Elessar implies something similar.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-03-2007, 06:07 AM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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This will sound very unproffessional, seeing as I have no idea where I heard this or a viable quote, but in one of the Lost Tales or something, Mandos makes a prophecy that on the day of the Final Battle Morgoth will find the way to break the Door of Night, will fight on the very plains of Valinor itself against every goodie ever made, versus every baddie ever made, and evil will be conquered forever. Turin Turambar will be the one to slay Morgoth, and Feanor will come back from the dead, aid Yavanna in restoring the Two Trees, and all Men and Elves will live together in harmony forever. (The Dwarves will aid in the restoration of Arda, as will the Ents).
But I think Tolkien scrapped this story eventually anyway, so I agree with Legate that it was referring to the pre-Numenor world, not the post-Gondor world. |
02-03-2007, 07:41 AM | #7 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
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That would be the Second Prophecy of Mandos, which survived into the 1937 "Silmarillion", and which I don't think was ever conclusively discarded by the man himself.
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02-04-2007, 08:20 AM | #8 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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Just a thought if Middle Earth is meant to be the past then the continents are in a completly different shape then what they are now how did they get this way. 6000 years is no where near the time continent drift needs to change the land mass significantly. Perhaps the second breaking caused this?
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02-04-2007, 02:06 PM | #9 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
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It's anybody's guess, but here's a very interesting picture somebody did once:
http://element.ess.ucla.edu/pictures/Middle-Earth.jpg |
02-04-2007, 06:03 PM | #10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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The books are not based on the real world, Tolkein has said so.
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02-04-2007, 08:45 PM | #11 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
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That is the most interesting overlay I've ever seen of Middle Earth over Europe and vicinity.
It should be understood that Tolkien said that his legendarium is feigned history of the real world. So it would be more accurate to say that the books are not the real world, but they are certainly based on a non-factual yet still more or less plausible supposed history of the real world. |
02-04-2007, 10:55 PM | #12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
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02-05-2007, 10:06 AM | #13 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
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If Middle Earth is not in based in the 'real' world how come Tolkien said we were probably in the sixth or seventh age?
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As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
02-05-2007, 02:32 PM | #14 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Middle Earth is most definitely supposed to be the real world. It originated to fill in the gaps in some legends, and establish common ground between them. Even shortly before the time LoTR was written, the primary legendarium (i.e. Silmarillion) had the British Isles formed from the breaking of Beleriand. AElfwine, who was told the Lost Tales, and who survived well into the 1950s (at least) (see the final Ainulindale, for example) was English. And this is not even counting the various definitive statements in Letters (which I don't have to hand and therefore can't directly quote at the moment).
Last edited by mhagain; 02-05-2007 at 02:33 PM. Reason: word omission |
02-06-2007, 01:57 PM | #15 |
Animated Skeleton
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That's a really cool map of Europe/Middle Earth, however the Shire seems FAR too much to the south. It seems almost at the same latitude as Rohan.
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02-06-2007, 02:47 PM | #16 | |
Wight
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Quote:
It's still major cool to look at, though...
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02-06-2007, 02:53 PM | #17 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Yes, the north seems a little bit moved. Nevertheless, it is nice. And after all, who knows if the rotation axis was always diverted? Possibly in the Middle-earth times the North pole was really "on the top".
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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